Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[CthuluIsSpy]

Well, I beat that Dragon in the Colphyr mines. Its a bit of a rough one. Really high AC and you can't use dispel on it reliably because you need to beat 40.

Use the goggles that let you take 20 on dispel checks? Or do you mean that 40 is too high for you to reach ever?

Didn't get the goggles, and yeah, 40 is too high for a level 17 party. The highest you can reach with a D20 is 37.
In hind sight Touch of Good might help because it does add a bonus, but I forgot about it.

 

[Average Manatee]

Didn't get the goggles, and yeah, 40 is too high for a level 17 party. The highest you can reach with a D20 is 37.
In hind sight Touch of Good might help because it does add a bonus, but I forgot about it.

There's plenty of items and abilities that will boost your caster level and let you hit a 40 dispel check with a level 17 party.

But yeah without the goggles kind of futile.

 

[Desiderius]

Didn't get the goggles, and yeah, 40 is too high for a level 17 party. The highest you can reach with a D20 is 37.
In hind sight Touch of Good might help because it does add a bonus, but I forgot about it.

There's plenty of items and abilities that will boost your caster level and let you hit a 40 dispel check with a level 17 party.

But yeah without the goggles kind of futile.

Sosiel can boost his CL into the mid 20s and use Luck Domain to get Advantage so he can hit without Goggles. Goggles are purchasable in Drezen so no reason not to pick them up. Can get even higher with Dispel Focus and Dispel Focus, Greater Feats (not sure if these are TTT or Dark Codex).

The screenshot I attached is of a failed Aeonbane check. The nice thing there is that is triggers on every hit so you can get several bites at the apple. I think it even triggers with each Magic Missile now in TTT (there's a note that it doesn't require an attack roll).

You can't boost the check itself with anything, including Touch of Good.

 

[Yosharian]

I don't even remember that boss lol, she died so quickly

 

[Haplo]

What's annoying is that Ice Body doesn't protect against the strength drain. I don't know why because it clearly says it protects against all ability damage.

Drain is a higher tier stat removing ability then Damage - also needs higher tier Restorative spells to cure (Lesser is enough for Damage).
Quite annoying indeed.

 

[Yosharian]

What's her AC anyway?

 

[Yosharian]

I have a vague recollection of the breath weapon, can't remember how I dealt with it

 

[Haplo]

Yeah, not a fan of sanctified slayer. Studied target is very micro-heavy, and before you go "but you study things automatically when you hit them", yeah hitting in order to get an AB bonus is backwards, especially when you're a mid BAB class with less AB and less extra attacks to take advantage of study with. For a large portion of the game you're gonna hit once, maybe hit the next attack, then the rest of your party kills the target. Repeat for every further target. In this scenario only half of your attacks are getting the studied target bonus. Their sneak attack progression is also super awful, anything with Sense Vitals basically equals it.

Not sure how you can say SS is good early game. You don't even get your first sneak attack dice until level 4 (at which point, wow, 3.5 damage on a mid BAB class with no AB boost), and studied target is as I mentioned very weak until you're getting lots of follow up attacks or are prepared to constantly swift study.

Clerics on the other hand are full spell casters, still mid BAB, 2 domains (which is huge, your first mythic abilities are spaced super far out so we're talking several levels ahead in development). One decent domain, lets say Nobility because its an easy comparison, is benefitting your party way more than studied target is.

Reading that, I think you're not even close to using this class' potential. First, it can get a mount to always Full Attack, always Flank, always Sneak Attack versus vulnerable targets, Always get +4 AB from Flanking and Outflank AND +2 AB from Half of the Pair. Potentially also +4 AB from Charge and Cavalier's Charge, if you pick 3 Cav levels.
Then you can self buff with the like of Touch of Madness, Touch of Good, Luck, War and similar.

Despite being Medium BAB, it has no shortage of AB.
And yes, Studied Target after 1st hit will greatly increase the odds of your iteratives landing.

Cleric is a different beast indead - a Divine buffer. But for a Divine martial hybrid I'll take the Sanctified Slayer any day.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

What's her AC anyway?

Like 72 on core lol. Only 18 touch and has not immune to ability damage, so you can lower her dex and reflex saves with wracking ray.
Not that having a low reflex save will help you, because she's immune to paralysis, grease and pits.

 

[Yosharian]

What's her AC anyway?

Like 72 on core lol. Only 18 touch and has not immune to ability damage, so you can lower her dex and reflex saves with wracking ray.
Not that having a low reflex save will help you, because she's immune to paralysis, grease and pits.

What's your current level?

I don't remember her being hard to hit at all, but my team is pretty optimized for AB tbf

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

What's her AC anyway?

Like 72 on core lol. Only 18 touch and has not immune to ability damage, so you can lower her dex and reflex saves with wracking ray.
Not that having a low reflex save will help you, because she's immune to paralysis, grease and pits.

What's your current level?

I don't remember her being hard to hit at all, but my team is pretty optimized for AB tbf

Level 17. I'm pretty sure I used every buff I had available
In retrospect, I could have cheesed her even more with Polar Ray.
Reduce Dex to 1 with Wracking, hit her with polar ray. Polar Ray inflicts 1D4 dex drain with no save. I could have killed her in like 3 turns lol.

 

[Yosharian]

I'm wondering if there are any good ways to build a dedicated dispeller that cheeses caster level from a variety of sources. Seems like paths that aren't Aeon struggle a bit to dispel bosses.

 

[Haplo]

I'm wondering if there are any good ways to build a dedicated dispeller that cheeses caster level from a variety of sources. Seems like paths that aren't Aeon struggle a bit to dispel bosses.

Well, there's also Trickery Trickster. Or Legend with Divine Dismissal. Probably a Legend with Dispelling Strikes will also work. Or UMD Trickster with Divine Dismissal.
Then a caster Lich can apparently go north of 40 Caster Level. Angel caps lower, but should be able to reach CL 35.

 

[Desiderius]

That isn’t what cheese means.

There’s a Cloak now from DLC that gives you an extra 4 CL but it still takes some work and should. Aeon has the easiest time of it which fits but other paths have their own dedicated Dispels like Mythic Trickery.

With the Cloak and Dispel Focus and/or the Goggles it’s more viable now to have a non-MC Dispeller but those do cost an item slot, Feats, etc. and aren’t guaranteed either.

 

[Desiderius]

What's her AC anyway?

Like 72 on core lol. Only 18 touch and has not immune to ability damage, so you can lower her dex and reflex saves with wracking ray.
Not that having a low reflex save will help you, because she's immune to paralysis, grease and pits.

What's your current level?

I don't remember her being hard to hit at all, but my team is pretty optimized for AB tbf

Level 17. I'm pretty sure I used every buff I had available
In retrospect, I could have cheesed her even more with Polar Ray.
Reduce Dex to 1 with Wracking, hit her with polar ray. Polar Ray inflicts 1D4 dex drain with no save. I could have killed her in like 3 turns lol.

What is cheesy about this? It’s way harder to pull off than just using the abilities you already have to hit her AC.

There’s nothing cheesy about being able to target touch AC or attack stats other than HP, it’s a core competence to achieve mastery of the game and something your most skilled and challenging enemies will employ against you.

 

[Desiderius]

Scorching Ray with Ascendant Fire from supposedly crappy Flamedancer would be really good against foes like Melzamera, Soul Hunter, etc since it picks up Vitals, Instant Enemy, Aeonbane, Mark of Justice, etc bonuses while targeting Touch and giving you three Rays per cast.

Various ways to make it Swift to double up but usually use the First Swift for Instant Enemy.

 

[Haplo]

That isn’t what cheese means.

There’s a Cloak now from DLC that gives you an extra 4 CL but it still takes some work and should. Aeon has the easiest time of it which fits but other paths have their own dedicated Dispels like Mythic Trickery.

With the Cloak and Dispel Focus and/or the Goggles it’s more viable now to have a non-MC Dispeller but those do cost an item slot, Feats, etc. and aren’t guaranteed either.

Think the Robe is +3 CL.
Still very good. Greatly helps with Enduring round/level spells as well.

 

[Yosharian]

I'm wondering if there are any good ways to build a dedicated dispeller that cheeses caster level from a variety of sources. Seems like paths that aren't Aeon struggle a bit to dispel bosses.

Well, there's also Trickery Trickster. Or Legend with Divine Dismissal. Probably a Legend with Dispelling Strikes will also work. Or UMD Trickster with Divine Dismissal.
Then a caster Lich can apparently go north of 40 Caster Level. Angel caps lower, but should be able to reach CL 35.

I suppose so, but what about Demon and the other paths you didn't mention?

 

[Average Manatee]

Reading that, I think you're not even close to using this class' potential. First, it can get a mount to always Full Attack, always Flank, always Sneak Attack versus vulnerable targets, Always get +4 AB from Flanking and Outflank AND +2 AB from Half of the Pair. Potentially also +4 AB from Charge and Cavalier's Charge, if you pick 3 Cav levels.
Then you can self buff with the like of Touch of Madness, Touch of Good, Luck, War and similar.

Despite being Medium BAB, it has no shortage of AB.
And yes, Studied Target after 1st hit will greatly increase the odds of your iteratives landing.

Cleric is a different beast indead - a Divine buffer. But for a Divine martial hybrid I'll take the Sanctified Slayer any day.

You're basically just listing reasons why riding a pet is good. Which is well agreed upon by everyone playing Wrath, and Clerics can ride them too. You're also not gonna get those buffs (especially as swift actions) until Act 3/4. I will maintain that cleric better buffing/domain access will outweigh Studied Target easily (especially when you take into account that it won't work on the first hit), the sneak attack progression of SS is just so marginal for most of the game, and cleric will also support the rest of the party better.

 

[Haplo]

Reading that, I think you're not even close to using this class' potential. First, it can get a mount to always Full Attack, always Flank, always Sneak Attack versus vulnerable targets, Always get +4 AB from Flanking and Outflank AND +2 AB from Half of the Pair. Potentially also +4 AB from Charge and Cavalier's Charge, if you pick 3 Cav levels.
Then you can self buff with the like of Touch of Madness, Touch of Good, Luck, War and similar.

Despite being Medium BAB, it has no shortage of AB.
And yes, Studied Target after 1st hit will greatly increase the odds of your iteratives landing.

Cleric is a different beast indead - a Divine buffer. But for a Divine martial hybrid I'll take the Sanctified Slayer any day.

You're basically just listing reasons why riding a pet is good. Which is well agreed upon by everyone playing Wrath, and Clerics can ride them too. You're also not gonna get those buffs (especially as swift actions) until Act 3/4. I will maintain that cleric better buffing/domain access will outweigh Studied Target easily (especially when you take into account that it won't work on the first hit), the sneak attack progression of SS is just so marginal for most of the game, and cleric will also support the rest of the party better.

What better buffing/domain access? I mean a cleric does get level 9 spells... but there's not much there to make him fight better. And 1 more Domain, yeah - kinda moot as its 1 Mythic Ability - and a cleric pretty much needs Abundant Spells that cost a total of 3 - while an inquisitor does not.

Supporting the party better is kinda the issue with the cleric. He has so limited slots and his buffs are so needed, that he can hardly spare them to fight better. An inquisitor doesn't really have this issue. Also gets Bane - and later Greater Bane - and +4d6 unblockable damage per hit is non-trivial - even more so when fighting particularly annoying enemies, such as swarms and crystals.
Plus he has far superior Initiative as well. And is less MAD, as there is little reason to focus hard on Wis.

The only scenario where I'd consider picking a cleric over a Sanctified Slayer for MC would be playing the Angel Mythic Path - due to the spellbook merge.

 

[Yosharian]

Clerics are much better as supports, Battle Oracle is the way to go if you want a martial divine caster

 

[Average Manatee]

You're ahead on your spell progression every level, not just when you reach level 7-9. That's more and better buffs. I wouldn't say a cleric needs abundant spells, I usually spend my first, like, 4 MRs on domains. If we're comparing one class to another then we shouldn't assume that a cleric "has" to spend all their slots buffing. Instead, we should say that a cleric "can" buff the party, and if you choose to do so then its assumed to be because it makes an already good class even better.

True, bane is pretty nice. I guess you can add that in as a 2nd version of sneak attack dice.

 

[scytheavatar]

Reading that, I think you're not even close to using this class' potential. First, it can get a mount to always Full Attack, always Flank, always Sneak Attack versus vulnerable targets, Always get +4 AB from Flanking and Outflank AND +2 AB from Half of the Pair. Potentially also +4 AB from Charge and Cavalier's Charge, if you pick 3 Cav levels.
Then you can self buff with the like of Touch of Madness, Touch of Good, Luck, War and similar.

Despite being Medium BAB, it has no shortage of AB.
And yes, Studied Target after 1st hit will greatly increase the odds of your iteratives landing.

Cleric is a different beast indead - a Divine buffer. But for a Divine martial hybrid I'll take the Sanctified Slayer any day.

You're basically just listing reasons why riding a pet is good. Which is well agreed upon by everyone playing Wrath, and Clerics can ride them too. You're also not gonna get those buffs (especially as swift actions) until Act 3/4. I will maintain that cleric better buffing/domain access will outweigh Studied Target easily (especially when you take into account that it won't work on the first hit), the sneak attack progression of SS is just so marginal for most of the game, and cleric will also support the rest of the party better.

Does Cleric has access to Litany of Eloquence? If he doesn't then any Inquisitor class is better. Period. Once you have tried the spell it becomes impossible to play Unfair without it. The ability to control tough enemies for 1-2 turns without any saves means you don't even need a crowd control character in your party.

But my main point is I have no idea how people play Unfair without an Oracle. How do you prevent your pets from being fucked by crowd control? And if you use an Oracle I am not sure why you will want to use a Cleric too.

 

[deama]

Is a playthrough with a small party(3-4) viable? I remember in kingmaker there was that mandatory party split part in the bloom.

In one of the parts in act 3 you need a party of size at least 3 I think to open a door to progress in the main quest.
That's the only one I know of for wrath, concerning the main quest.

 

[Haplo]

Clerics are much better as supports, Battle Oracle is the way to go if you want a martial divine caster

An Oracle looses out on Domains. Unacceptable!