Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Saravan]

All your arguments boil down to ‘get good’ because you don’t actually have any arguments. Nowhere did I say the game is too hard and it’s irrelevant to discuss this, yet all you do is repeat the same tired point endlessly.

By unique items I do not mean only the ones found by crusade or made by base building. You find unique items everywhere and way too much. By Drezen I already had a full page of unused items. It’s ridiculous and overuses the concept.

Positioning does not extend further than basic tactics (range in back line, get AoOS builds in the thick of things etc). Stop pretending like it’s some advanced gameplay.

If favoured terrain is the best example you got of encounters utilizing terrain and environmental elements then I understand why you are clueless on this topic.

Prebuff spam is boring banal shit that amplifies the fact that encounters are solved before combat rather than during. This makes encounters feel stale and rigid, there are rarely situations where you have to make decisions on the fly.

Encounters are spammed to the point that combat gets unremarkable. I had to force myself to finish the game. I got insanely bored after Wintersun. This has nothing to do with difficulty.

A lot of classes and subclasses provide fake depth. If the only difference between two slayer subclasses is a single passive that doesn’t warrant it to be a separate subclass. There are a lot of subclasses like this in the game.

As for bloat, this game’s combat is the definition of bloat in everything. Item drops, stats, encounters and minor tweaks to classes being designated as a new ‘subclass’. Even currency reaches a ridiculous point as early as post-Drezen having millions upon millions of gold.

 

[Desiderius]

This is fair. I can agree with most of it.

Though there’s more to the different classes and subclasses (and positioning) than you think the game is also too solvable which obviates the need for those distinctive features.*

This is to some extent due to the nerf bat that comes in response to the kind of criticisms you favor. Stat bloat/too many encounters are typical of people who struggle to handle them. There’s a flood of items due to people over-focusing on one weapon type instead of using their proficiencies (or understanding why some classes don’t have them and what they get in exchange). The ones there are aren’t nearly unique enough.

Your own critiques could benefit from the criticism you give the game.

* - which class/archetype are you talking about and what passive? The irony is that the one archetype to which this criticism applies also got memed into people’s brains as the only “viable” one.

 

[Saravan]

This is fair. I can agree with most of it.

Though there’s more to the different classes and subclasses (and positioning) than you think the game is also too solvable which obviates the need for those distinctive features.*

This is to some extent due to the nerf bat that comes in response to the kind of criticisms you favor. Stat bloat/too many encounters are typical of people who struggle to handle them. There’s a flood of items due to people over-focusing on one weapon type instead of using their proficiencies (or understanding why some classes don’t have them and what they get in exchange). The ones there are aren’t nearly unique enough.

Your own critiques could benefit from the criticism you give the game.

* - which class/archetype are you talking about and what passive? The irony is that the one archetype to which this criticism applies also got memed into people’s brains as the only “viable” one.

Example of bad subclass design: spawn slayer (change study to basically a copy-paste passive of rangers)

Example of good subclass design:
Brown fur transmitter (fundamentally changes how Arcanist plays)

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

- Unique items drop like candy.
- Encounter spam. Even too much for RtwP design.
- Positioning don’t really matter beyond basic tactics.
- Barely any use of terrain or environment.
- Prebuff spam.
- Most choices to solve encounters are made before combat begins rather than during.
- Stat bloat difficulty.
- Faux class/subclass diversity (e.g. slayer).
- Gay companions.

Accurate.

 

[Desiderius]

This is fair. I can agree with most of it.

Though there’s more to the different classes and subclasses (and positioning) than you think the game is also too solvable which obviates the need for those distinctive features.*

This is to some extent due to the nerf bat that comes in response to the kind of criticisms you favor. Stat bloat/too many encounters are typical of people who struggle to handle them. There’s a flood of items due to people over-focusing on one weapon type instead of using their proficiencies (or understanding why some classes don’t have them and what they get in exchange). The ones there are aren’t nearly unique enough.

Your own critiques could benefit from the criticism you give the game.

* - which class/archetype are you talking about and what passive? The irony is that the one archetype to which this criticism applies also got memed into people’s brains as the only “viable” one.

Example of bad subclass design: spawn slayer (change study to basically a copy-paste passive of rangers)

Example of good subclass design:
Brown fur transmitter (fundamentally changes how Arcanist plays)

This is fair. I can agree with most of it.

Though there’s more to the different classes and subclasses (and positioning) than you think the game is also too solvable which obviates the need for those distinctive features.*

This is to some extent due to the nerf bat that comes in response to the kind of criticisms you favor. Stat bloat/too many encounters are typical of people who struggle to handle them. There’s a flood of items due to people over-focusing on one weapon type instead of using their proficiencies (or understanding why some classes don’t have them and what they get in exchange). The ones there are aren’t nearly unique enough.

Your own critiques could benefit from the criticism you give the game.

* - which class/archetype are you talking about and what passive? The irony is that the one archetype to which this criticism applies also got memed into people’s brains as the only “viable” one.

Example of bad subclass design: spawn slayer (change study to basically a copy-paste passive of rangers)

Example of good subclass design:
Brown fur transmitter (fundamentally changes how Arcanist plays)

This is what I mean. Why do people insist on making broad statements then when you ask for an example it turns out they’re simply clueless about the actual game.

Spawn Slayer still gets Study. It also gets an ability (that naturally doesn’t work last time we checked) that gives an *additional* bonus that Ranger doesn’t have access to. No Ranger gets favored enemy against Darrazand, Melzamera, Nahyndri, Great Wurms, that one Ecorche, and Korrazawhatever.

On the other hand no Favored Enemy bonus that you’d take applies to so few mobs, so the two abilities are distinct. The question is whether that distinction is relevant and of course it is since those are some of the highest AC mobs in the game. Doubly important if you’re trying to land CMs (which have more support in Wrath) since it helps overcome the size CMD bonus.

What does it give up? That’s more important than it looks too. Swift Study seems like a small price to pay but there’s no ability I think I’ve used more than I used Swift Study in my TB Vanguard run through Unfair. Study turns on automatically when you land a Sneak but that requires:

(1) landing your first attack without Study Bonus

(2) a mob vulnerable to Sneaks

And what do you know the mobs that both of those can be a problem against are the same ones Spawn Slayer gets an inherent bonus to hit. But not right away. Takes class progression to get there.

So there is in fact a great deal of play between Spawn Slayer and the other archetypes and not an easy trade-off to judge, which is what makes a great game.

Same with pretty much every other example people come up with to make the point you’re arguing. It’s a great ruleset.

BTW Brown-fur isn’t a no-brainer either. Phantasmal Mage is a better fit for the strengths (and to alleviate the weaknesses) of the base class.

 

[Saravan]

Seriously that wall of text for effectively a passive stat change to the default class that barely affects gameplay. It’s an insult to call that minisicule difference a ‘subclass’. If that constitutes depth to you then you are a lost cause.

Your comment regarding brown fur also reveals how you are stuck in optimisation hell mindset. You aren’t even approaching this topic correctly. It’s completely irrelevant whether another subclass to Arcanist is ‘better’ the point is that brown fur changes the way the base class is played to a degree that it warrants being called a subclass. Like Eldrich Knight or Battlemaster Fighter in DnD. It provides an interesting and different game mechanic. That is what adds depth and variety to classes, not including a slightly different version of favoured enemy and calling it a subclass.

 

[Desiderius]

Slight my ass. Every last word of that wall of text exposes just how much you have no idea what you’re talking about. *You’re* the one who chose this example for your general point, so the weakness of that choice is on you.

Specifics:

Let’s be generous and say you don’t suck quite as much as other bloat/grind whiners and you’re at 20% to hit on the toughest enemies. I’ll even give you credit for knowing how to use Sos/Ember to give yourself advantage (Sos can do it as a Swift, Ember w/ TTT), which kicks you up to 36%.

Now if you take Spawn Slayer that slight passive kicks you up to 40%, or 64% with that advantage. That’s a 16/9 increase (78%).

The memetards jizz themselves over Mutagens that do the same thing. Making use of marginal/situational differences *where they matter* is what great gameplay is all about and creating opportunities for them to matter is great design.

The passive matters too since swift-flooding can become a problem depending on your Mythic Path. Trading an extra Swift for a substantial passive boost where you need it can be a smart and very noticeable (if, you know, the ability were actually working) choice. Playing levels 5-12 without that Swift likewise significantly changes how Slayer will approach fights.

 

[Desiderius]

Ranger again? I already explained to you that Ranger doesn’t have access to this ability. Is Weapon Training a Ranger ability? Smite Evil?

Your comment regarding brown fur also reveals how you are stuck in optimisation hell mindset.

Oh for fuck sake not this shit again. *You’re* the one who chose the most notorious no-brainer optimal archetype as your example of good design. I didn’t say anything about optimal, I said best fit for the strengths of the class (and if you use Shadow Spells the best way to counteract its weaknesses), but that isn’t always what you need.

Vanguard isn’t best way to take advantage of the strengths of Slayer, but I didn’t need to do that with the boost Aeon gives so traded some of that strength by choosing Vanguard instead to get Tactician and Vanguard’s Bond to shore up the rest of the team.

Those are the kinds of choices that great games are about and that the PF games give you in spades if you take the time to look for them and think things through instead of talking out of your ass.

 

[Saravan]

Holy shit are you exaggerating the extent of which favoured enemy 2.0 passive changes your gameplay. This is not enough to warrant a separate subclass. This is the thing with this game. A lot of minimal change ups to base classes being misinterpreted as ‘tons of class variety’.

 

[Average Manatee]

Yeah. Pretty generic +AB +Damage bonus vs. another pretty generic +AB +Damage bonus martial. A LOT of the classes could be consolidated into a single class that has a variety of early optional paths, like how Ranger chooses to specialize in a specific style. I'd do something like make a blank fighter (no bonuses aside from the bonus combat feats), and then let them replace weapon and armor training with a selection of other major and minor martial focuses like favored enemy, study target, mutagens, 4th level casting of divine or arcane, shifting abilities, rage powers, etc.

No Ranger gets favored enemy against Darrazand, Melzamera, Nahyndri, Great Wurms, that one Ecorche, and Korrazawhatever.

Guarantee it took you 10x as long to type that out as it takes me to hit the swift enemy hotkey on all of these enemies combined.

BTW Brown-fur isn’t a no-brainer either. Phantasmal Mage is a better fit for the strengths (and to alleviate the weaknesses) of the base class.

Not sure I would agree with that. Some free metamagic uses are nice but stat increases from BFT also apply to your DCs and so boost your offensive spells in their own way (and you're also boosting your whole damn party massively at the same time). Furthermore for the hardest fights in the game you'll always have your best wands ready to negate Phantasmal Mage's advantage, so BFT comes out plainly ahead.

 

[Desiderius]

Guarantee it took you 10x as long to type that out as it takes me to hit the swift enemy hotkey on all of these enemies combined.

And now the ankle-biters are out in force.

(1) *I* didn’t make the Ranger comparison, he did.

(2) With what Swift Action? I just said that Spawn Slayer is useful for when your Swift is already taken up by something like Aeonbane. And Swifts are clunky in RTwP so good job burning your whole turn if you don’t get the timing perfect.

(3) You also need a 3rd level spell slot which you don’t get on Ranger until level 10 and which has other good options that last longer than one fight. Ranger has other things to spend Mythics on other than Abundant.

The Slayer ability is passive/always on. Like other martial abilities this cuts down on the reliance on buffs that OP deplores and that can bite you in tough spots. Regular Favored Enemy is also passive. Instant Enemy isn’t.

Furthermore for the hardest fights in the game you'll always have your best wands ready to negate Phantasmal Mage's advantage, so BFT comes out plainly ahead.

It’s about stacking meta. The deeper the stack the better off you are. Rod can only apply one at a time. Strength of Class is offensive casting which Phant adds to.

Gnome gets racial bonus to Illusion (TTT fixes Shadow Spells to make them Illusion) and Feat that adds +2 DC to Shadow Spells. Shadow Spells counteract narrowness of Arcanist Spellbook. Mental stats don’t get benefit from things like BFT enhancing Polymorph/Size stat bonuses because Polymorphs/Size spells only boost physical stats. TTT has Idealize Feat that duplicates BFT Fox’s Cunning Enhancement that Nenio can take.

BFT buffs eat so much of Arcane Pool/Spellbook for most of game that it puts a big dent into your ability to be main controller. Which may be something you want to do but is far from no-brainer.

 

[Desiderius]

Holy shit are you exaggerating the extent of which favoured enemy 2.0 passive changes your gameplay. This is not enough to warrant a separate subclass. This is the thing with this game. A lot of minimal change ups to base classes being misinterpreted as ‘tons of class variety’.

And yet people shit themselves for Mutation Warrior. A 78% increase in your chance to hit the things you need to hit the most is the opposite of trivial.

You pay for that with the narrowness of the ability but the payoff is *large* in a way that means that maybe Sosiel can take a Mythic that makes his casting better instead of having to take Hearth or you can leave Seelah on the bench and go without Mark of Justice, or simply not suck so bad you feel like you have to cry for nerfs or trash the ruleset.

Look, people embarrass themselves all the time. I don’t care about that. But as long as the best devs and players are on some glibertarian live-and-let-live kick its people who speak with the voice of authority without the mastery to back it up who inexperienced players listen to because they’re the only ones talking.

And then they go on to demand great games get nerfed and lobotomized because some idiot journo wannabe wanted to talk big about shit he knew nothing about.

This is why we can’t have nice things.

 

[Desiderius]

favoured enemy 2.0

As if Slayer with Favored Enemy on top of it wouldn’t play out in a significantly different way from the base class. What even is your point? Favored Enemy is a major reason to play Ranger (and specifically Demonslayer) in the first place. But Ranger doesn’t get access to *this* Favored Enemy without a Swift and a spell slot anyway.

Are you simply a splatbook hater?

 

[Average Manatee]

And now the ankle-biters are out in force.

(1) *I* didn’t make the Ranger comparison, he did.

(2) With what Swift Action? I just said that Spawn Slayer is useful for when your Swift is already taken up by something like Aeonbane. And Swifts are clunky in RTwP so good job burning your whole turn if you don’t get the timing perfect.

(3) You also need a 3rd level spell slot which you don’t get on Ranger until level 10 and which has other good options that last longer than one fight. Ranger has other things to spend Mythics on other than Abundant.

The Slayer ability is passive/always on. Like other martial abilities this cuts down on the reliance on buffs that OP deplores and that can bite you in tough spots. Regular Favored Enemy is also passive. Instant Enemy isn’t.

Ranger is already a full turn ahead of Slayer anyway due to being mounted and therefore able to get within full attack range of the enemy on turn 1, so I'd say that's a clear win either way. Of course you can use Bismuth but then that's another melee character in your group who loses a whole turn to run into melee.

And now the ankle-biters are out in force.It’s about stacking meta. The deeper the stack the better off you are. Rod can only apply one at a time. Strength of Class is offensive casting which Phant adds to.

Gnome gets racial bonus to Illusion (TTT fixes Shadow Spells to make them Illusion) and Feat that adds +2 DC to Shadow Spells. Shadow Spells counteract narrowness of Arcanist Spellbook. Mental stats don’t get benefit from things like BFT enhancing Polymorph/Size stat bonuses because Polymorphs/Size spells only boost physical stats. TTT has Idealize Feat that duplicates BFT Fox’s Cunning Enhancement that Nenio can take.

BFT buffs eat so much of Arcane Pool/Spellbook for most of game that it puts a big dent into your ability to be main controller. Which may be something you want to do but is far from no-brainer.

Don't really see how this helps. The bonus is for illusion spells, and illusion damage spells are... kinda bad? So that basically just leaves you with DC-based illusion spells, and if you are using those then the only metamagic to use is Persistant. So stacking a wand + another metamagic isn't all that useful. The only exception I can think of is Greater Shadow Evocation, Greater -> Sirocco, using both persistant and selective. So that's one very specific spell in one very specific way you get an advantage in.

Aside from that, you can run a Gnome BFT just fine. And BFT buffs really don't take up that much space. The only crowded tier is level 6 but you can either use other tiers with metamagic or use a bunch of level 2 single target stat buffs to compensate. Arcane pool is absolutely never a problem, you can consume tons of useless spell slots for more points.

 

[Saravan]

A small AB/damage passive does not meaningfully change the way you play the game which should be the standard for designating something as a new subclass. As always, you get lost in optimisation minutiae by autistically screeching about a single swift action being freed up.

The brown fur, as an example to illustrate the difference, is that a unique mechanic is introduced at lvl 9 that fundamentally changes the way the base class operates. That provides a gameplay change substantial enough to include it as a subclass.

If you can’t tell the difference between these two then you don’t understand what provides real variety to classes in a CRPG. Hence my original comment about faux class/subclass variety in WotR.

 

[Haplo]

Ranger is already a full turn ahead of Slayer anyway due to being mounted and therefore able to get within full attack range of the enemy on turn 1, so I'd say that's a clear win either way. Of course you can use Bismuth but then that's another melee character in your group who loses a whole turn to run into melee.

Unless the slayer has pounce. Or Swift teleport.

 

[scytheavatar]

A small AB/damage passive does not meaningfully change the way you play the game which should be the standard for designating something as a new subclass. As always, you get lost in optimisation minutiae by autistically screeching about a single swift action being freed up.

The brown fur, as an example to illustrate the difference, is that a unique mechanic is introduced at lvl 9 that fundamentally changes the way the base class operates. That provides a gameplay change substantial enough to include it as a subclass.

If you can’t tell the difference between these two then you don’t understand what provides real variety to classes in a CRPG. Hence my original comment about faux class/subclass variety in WotR.

I don't see why every subclass has to have gameplay changes on the level of Brown Fur to exist........ this game even with zero subclasses already has plenty of variety unmatch in the CRPG genre. Small changes which nevertheless provide more options isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Desiderius]

For fuck sake I just posted two months of Slayer owning Unfair mounted on Bismuth, starting out with Spawn Slayer until we figured out that Owlcat still hasn’t implemented the main ability at which point I respecced into Vanguard.

You get Bismuth at the same time Ranger would be picking up Instant Enemy.

TTT fixes the ridiculous vanilla implementation that lets you Full Attack after Mount gives you a free Move Action. You can get that ability but it costs a Feat with a couple prereqs. I think I ended up getting that on Nomad Lann.

 

[Desiderius]

A small AB/damage passive does not meaningfully change the way you play the game which should be the standard for designating something as a new subclass. As always, you get lost in optimisation minutiae by autistically screeching about a single swift action being freed up.

The brown fur, as an example to illustrate the difference, is that a unique mechanic is introduced at lvl 9 that fundamentally changes the way the base class operates. That provides a gameplay change substantial enough to include it as a subclass.

If you can’t tell the difference between these two then you don’t understand what provides real variety to classes in a CRPG. Hence my original comment about faux class/subclass variety in WotR.

78% isn’t small. You can’t just make shit up then use that as a premise. It doesn’t just change the way the class plays out it changes the range of viable party make-ups and abilities that other party members take.

A single Swift Action (and spell slot) being freed up is a big deal when you’re playing rocket tag. But that’s entirely beside the point since the Favored Enemy comparison is Apples and Oranges anyway. Slayer doesn’t get Instant Enemy.

 

[Saravan]

A small AB/damage passive does not meaningfully change the way you play the game which should be the standard for designating something as a new subclass. As always, you get lost in optimisation minutiae by autistically screeching about a single swift action being freed up.

The brown fur, as an example to illustrate the difference, is that a unique mechanic is introduced at lvl 9 that fundamentally changes the way the base class operates. That provides a gameplay change substantial enough to include it as a subclass.

If you can’t tell the difference between these two then you don’t understand what provides real variety to classes in a CRPG. Hence my original comment about faux class/subclass variety in WotR.

I don't see why every subclass has to have gameplay changes on the level of Brown Fur to exist........ this game even with zero subclasses already has plenty of variety unmatch in the CRPG genre. Small changes which nevertheless provide more options isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Not every subclass has to include unique mechanics on the level of brown fur, Eldrich Scoundrel is a good example that changes the way you play Rogue enough to warrant a subclass without having unique mechanics.

However, a lot of classes, especially martials like spawn slayer, just have small tweaks to their class progression that is just padding shallow subclasses to the game. If you can reconstruct a subclass by just replacing a feat or two as an option to the base class that is a good sign that it was an unnecessary addition.

Unmatched variety in the CRPG genre I don’t agree with and is a meaningless point anyways in the context of WotR combat which boils down to a game of boring prebuff spam with barely any use of positioning or use of terrain/environment regardless of party composition.

The encounters are too badly designed for combat to be fun beyond theoretical build fagging that entices autists like Desiderius and Haplo but is not actually interesting enough to play which is why even the few remaining retards here struggle to find the willpower to complete the game more than once. This was the same in Kingmaker, it took more than a year of Desiderius sperging out in the thread about his builds before he even completed the game by his own admission which just tells you everything you need to know about how fucking boring the encounter design is.

Here is to hoping Owlcat took lessons of their previous mistakes when designing RT. At least they understood why RtwP is always shit compared to TB.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

This game’s combat is so fucking overrated.

Hmm, I actually believe the combat, builds and some groundbreaking moments mostly summ up the positives of this game. So it begs a question: what is a good combat according to you? In which game you saw it?

I'm in Ch4 and starting to look for the exits. I liked the combat, but now that my party is CL19/ML5 in the Abyss, everything is starting to become rocket tag. It's not hard, it's just turned up to 11 in the same way Final Fantasy does after a certain point. The charm is wearing off.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

This game’s combat is so fucking overrated.

Hmm, I actually believe the combat, builds and some groundbreaking moments mostly summ up the positives of this game. So it begs a question: what is a good combat according to you? In which game you saw it?

I'm in Ch4 and starting to look for the exits. I liked the combat, but now that my party is CL19/ML5 in the Abyss, everything is starting to become rocket tag. It's not hard, it's just turned up to 11 in the same way Final Fantasy does after a certain point. The charm is wearing off.

I assume you turned off EXP sharing to get to CL 19 at that point.

Well enjoy 40% of the game without level progression buddy unless you go for Legend.

And yeah its just downhill from Ch 4 onwards. Game peaked (or plateud depending who you ask) on Chapter 3. The fact that you won't have any CL progression will just make it worse

 

[Desiderius]

This game’s combat is so fucking overrated.

Hmm, I actually believe the combat, builds and some groundbreaking moments mostly summ up the positives of this game. So it begs a question: what is a good combat according to you? In which game you saw it?

I'm in Ch4 and starting to look for the exits. I liked the combat, but now that my party is CL19/ML5 in the Abyss, everything is starting to become rocket tag. It's not hard, it's just turned up to 11 in the same way Final Fantasy does after a certain point. The charm is wearing off.

I assume you turned off EXP sharing to get to CL 19 at that point.

Well enjoy 40% of the game without level progression buddy unless you go for Legend.

And yeah its just downhill from Ch 4 onwards. Game peaked (or plateud depending who you ask) on Chapter 3. The fact that you won't have any CL progression will just make it worse

Yes, any sort of exploit is just undermining your own enjoyment of the game once you hit to point of general solvability. I’m tempted to include the Ship DLC content in that category at this point.

Best bet is using the TTT exploit adjustments (and added content) along with some sort of stipulation to add challenge.

I’ve got a Chaotic characters only (other than the NG new companion) Beast Tamer Bard Azata run going based on fighting with buffed Summons that should be interesting along with Cruromancer/Signifier/Lich Evil-only Sickness nuker. Not buying Irabeth’s insta-army either.

Once game is finished I’ll get back to those.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Midnight Isles is definitely what pushed my character levels up. I have only gone on two voyages, but I took each as soon as they were available. They're longer and kind of a slog in the campaign. While before they mostly busted the economy, now those voyages have broken the XP curve too. The novelty of the Abyss is wearing off, and I've gotten quite tired of the color palette. There is only so much purple and magenta my eyes can take. My biggest problem is just the rocket tag. I have MC (Arcane Trickster, Trickster), Daeran, and Ember as my backline and all of their builds have come to fruition. I do hundreds of damage to everyone on screen at the start of combat with low level spells and still have more damage growth ahead of me. Maraliths are supposed to be fearsome demonic nobility, serving as generals, but I'm swatting them away 4 at a time. It doesn't feel right. I'm not getting the same kick out of the power fantasy like I did with BG2:Throne of Bhaal way back when. I'm also settling on the conclusion that I spent too much time messing around in the DLCs before starting the full campaign. I was planning on doing a properly holy warrior run after this, but now I'm not so sure.

 

[Sarathiour]

I dunno, I was level 20 before even entering nenio's dungeon, you should already been pretty close to the max by the end of chapter 4.