Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[gurugeorge]

More Archaeologist Trickster shenanigans - if you have lots of crit stuff (I've got the amazing shortsword Blitz Cut at 15-20 x3 with the shield Blinding Light at 18-20 x2) and the feat (shield-) Bashing Finish, then if you cast the lvl 7 Trickster spell, Trick Fate, it forces d20 rolls, so you can get into an endless loop of shield bashes until a thing is dead. Fun, but hilariously game-breaking tbh, although it does come right at the last trickster caster level. (Also, amusing side note: the last Trickster summon, Hog of Desolation, which arrives with a spectacular bang, is hostile to everything, including you and your team, but it rips through enemies like nobody's business. )

Ima post my build soon - still undecided as to whether to just bite the bullet and do spell focus enchantments and spell penetrations, incl mythic versions, etc., etc., with an Expanded Arsenal into Illusion, seeing as there just is so much Enchantment/Illusion crap in the combination of Archaeologist and Trickster spellbooks, or whether to just concentrate more on the melee featage (I can squeeze in the crit stuff with those magic aspects, but I'm thinking of foregoing some of that investment in magic for the sake of more out-of-the-way melee feats, i.e. opening up un-prereq'ed access to things llke greater cleave and cleavinng finish via the relevant Trickster ability, which would seem to a good way of making good use of the synergy). The spells are nice and all, but my team and my character are just so busily devastating in melee that I don't really have time to cast any fancy-schmancy spells. Hell, maybe the good Lord is just telling me to up the difficulty from Core

If I were to play solo, then there would definitely be a use for that type of Enchantment/Illusion build with decent melee, but in a team, it seems pointless, so I'm wondering if I should just basically have the buffs and any enemy-only mass spells (like Slow) in my tray, so I don't have to think about them that much, maybe even with some investment in Transmutation (the two foci, the two pens, and leave it at that). Another option would be Conjuration - I could see summons being useful, again, if soloing, but that would also require some investment (augment) and it seems pointless faff in core, when around lvl 18 I'm just mowing down mythic demons (don't get me wrong, I'm loving it, and it's a suitable reward just at the end of the game, but apart from the occasional summon to start and grab attention (which doesn't really need supporting feats), it seems like pointless busywork).

(Something else I've often been curious about: supposing I do invest in Conjuration, does that have any impact on cure spells? Are they more effective with that investment? In which case Conjuration probably is the most useful all-round if I'm just going to be bashing away at things. Maybe get that ranged heal mythic thing for secondary spot healing.)

Basically, I suppose what I'm curious about (from anybody with the relevant experience) is just what are the best spells (apart from buffs+ the mythic enduring spells and some heals obvs) to go with a melee centric bard/trickster type of character, in team?

 

[Haplo]

No impact of Conjuration Foci on Cure spells, AFAIK.

You've discovered it yourself: if your martial prowess is strong, there's not much time for casting.
For a Bard the natural focus is Enchantment, followed by Evocation (for the stunning sound-based spells). But investing in either would also require investment in Spell Penetration (or Allied Caster Teamwork - if you have more casters that would pick it).

The infinite bashing loop is cool, but even without bashing, only critting for 3 rounds is rather crazy. However at top Mythic Ranks pretty much all paths have some bonkers stuff. Trouble is getting there (and surviving on that way).

 

[Haplo]

Does anybody know if Destructive Dispel works with Aeon Bane dispel?
I could see a lot of pain for the enemies if it does...

 

[Desiderius]

Those feats weren’t working at all last time I tried them.

 

[Humbaba]

Yeah, you're basically half way through Act 1. You're going to start bumping into the mythic paths now, which might spice things up a bit, but Act 1 will arguably remain just as weak until the end.

As far as I'm concerned Act 1 is the weakest. But... looking forward to what you think of Act 2/ rest of the game.

The game until Drezen is a real drag on replays because until then nothing changes but let's be honest the worst act by far is 5 (or 6, technically the assault on Threshold is its own act)

 

[gurugeorge]

No impact of Conjuration Foci on Cure spells, AFAIK.

You've discovered it yourself: if your martial prowess is strong, there's not much time for casting.
For a Bard the natural focus is Enchantment, followed by Evocation (for the stunning sound-based spells). But investing in either would also require investment in Spell Penetration (or Allied Caster Teamwork - if you have more casters that would pick it).

The infinite bashing loop is cool, but even without bashing, only critting for 3 rounds is rather crazy. However at top Mythic Ranks pretty much all paths have some bonkers stuff. Trouble is getting there (and surviving on that way).

Yeah that's the thing, it's possible to squeeze the foci and pens into a build, maybe at the cost of a bit of crit, but what's the point? Again, probably in solo play it would absolutely make sense to have a huge toolbox with lots of CC. But in team play, there's just no time - the bodies are hitting the floor already. But maybe I should just up the difficulty so that it isn't so easy to mow things down, then there might be more need of a bit of spellcasting - but then again, on higher difficulty, I'd need to maximize investment into magic to make the spells do anything (deeper than just the foci and pens), so it's a wash.

Plus also, Trickery 3 is itself just bonkers, in vanilla, but especially with Tabletop Tweaks - with that mod, not only do you get the fairly reliable insta-kill (it's pretty much equivalent to something like a relevantly-heightened, persistent Phantasmal Killer), but you can also use Trickery 2 dispel at range I've also just discovered that Trickster Mobility is amazing too - stick mobility on and you're actually faster, at literally no cost, and can weave in and out, avoiding AOOs but dishing them out. Haven't fully tested that out, but it looks like fun and perfect for my character. (Re. the mobility tricks, it's not clear if one needs ranks in Mobility for that to work well, though I'm tempted to test it out.)

In fact, Trickery 2/3 is so insane that it's probably worth considering bothering neither with extra melee nor with extra magic, but just getting the two standard trickery bonus feats (Deft Hands and Deceitful I think they are) just to maximize that.

 

[Desiderius]

Pretty sure anything that involves casting offensive spells from the Trickster Spellbook is for fun/RP and not really competitive with the alternatives at higher difficulties. If you want to be casting primarily as a Bard/Skald play Azata.

I could see using the casting for controlling adds (which have lower saves) while using Trickery 2/3 and infinibash on bosses.

I’ve done Transmutation on Bard since Slow is so good but there’s not as much else there for Bard compared to other schools. Touch of Gracelessness is under-rated but I don’t think meta work s on it and Resounding Word (?) theoretically could work but my fights never end up lasting that long. If yours do it’s a nice source of interrupts vs a caster.

Wolj sets up well for Mythic Transmutation with Darven’s Hat and Obsidian Flow turning on Fire items.

 

[gurugeorge]

I feel I should re-emphasize the value of that newish mod I mentioned a while back, Spell Pouch, for keeping a useful but tidy tray - it's invaluable with this character in particular, as I can group together all the Trickster summons, all the Trickster debuffs, all the Trickster attacks, on single buttons, as well as group the normal plus Trickster copies of personal spells like Expeditious Retreat and Mirror Image (I realized it's pointless going the Enduring Spells route as you're forced to pick the Trickster versions of those sorts of spells anyway, so you might as well take advantage of that and have (in my case) 11 casts of each - more than enough for a few zones - and just use Bubble Buff for them, with the "ignore already cast" option to save spell slots).

It also has the functionality that you can shift+move the icons within the group, so that you can have a spell you want to see as that group's icon (move to top left in the group's box) be activateable straight off (as the group icon), as particularly representative of the group (which will change as you get higher level and the lower level spells of similar functionality lose their shine).

Really handy little mod.

 

[Mauman]

Conjuration Foci on Cure spells

You know, a bit of a segue, but I've never liked how cure spells were changed from necromancy to conjuration.

 

[Desiderius]

I did just figure out that the non-caster generals can use Heals (and Lay on hands from Clerics) to own Undead. Those were the fights where the Caster general had the biggest advantage.

 

[gurugeorge]

OK, finally happy with this:-

Confilius, Archaeologist/Trickster (for Core)

Human, Pickpocket

Bonus Human Feat: Fast Learner (to compensate for the lowish INT)

Notable Gear: The Blitz Cut (shortsword) any good named light shield. Ring of Clemency. Weapon could be Rapier obvs, but I rather fell in love with the Claw of Jistka early in the game so stuck with shortsword. Blitz Cut is a +3 shock shortsword that bypasses all DR. Gets down to 15-20 x3, with shield at 18-20 x2, after lvl 17. (Fun note: the look was crafted in Visual Adjustments, it's set no matter what gear I have on.)

STR 7
DEX 20
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 15

Skills: Mobility, Trickery, Kn (Arcana), Kn (World), Perception, Persuasion, UMD. By lvl 2 you can raise all 7 at every level, ending up with all 7 at 20 by lvl 20

Levelling:-

1. Weapon Finesse
2. Bard Talent: Two-Weapon Fighting
3. Shield Bash
4. +DEX
5. Piranha Strike
6. Bard Talent: Weapon Focus Shortsword.
7. Combat Reflexes
8. +DEX
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10. Bard Talent: Opportunist
11. Improved Critical Shortsword
12. +DEX
13. Deft Hands (+2 to +4 (at rank 10) bump to Trickery for Trickery 2 & 3, also bumps UMD)
14. Bard Talent: Improved Uncanny Dodge
15. Shield Master
16. +CHA
17. Bashing Finish
18. Bard Talent: Improved Evasion
19. Deceitful (another Trickery bump, this time paired with Persuasion, both +2 to +4 (at rank 10) again)
20. +DEX

Mythic Levelling:-

1. Bit of Fun, Last Stand (better safe than sorry )
   
   
2. Weapon Finesse Mythic (DEX to damage at last, roundabout lvl 7/8 - but surpisingly not too painful prior to that, because quite accurate because of luck song, and lots of hits so still doing a bit of basic weapon damage + when critting before that point)
   
   
3. Trickery 1, Ever Ready (Combat Reflexes and Opportunist related, also Ring of Clemency)
   
   
4. Perception 1, Trickery 2, Two-Weapon Fighting Mythic. Now we're off to the races with Trickery 2, turning big tough mobs into pussycats by stripping all their things.
   
   
5. Knowledge World 1, Archmage Armor (good light armors before that - note that I don't have the spell, but AA works if I drink a Mage Armor potion), Perception 2 (more crit goodness)
   
   
6. Mobility 1 (avoiding AoOs while weaving in and out of mobs faster with perma-Mobility), Knowledge World 2 (roll 1 it turns to 20), Improved Critical Mythic Shortsword
   
   
7. Knowledge Arcana 1 (handy while DEX at odd level roundabout here), Rupture Restraints (got this because saves are weak and build tight, so this compensates a bit), Trickery 3 (reliable-ish Phantasmal Killer in melee range, on tap - especially useful to delete annoying mobs that are causing problems, with TTT this also makes Trickery 2 ranged)
   
   
8. Persuasion 1 (this could be one of the others, just trying it out - thematically it's nice that one's mere appearance puts the shits up the demons ), Mobility 2 (not just fast, not just avoiding AOOs, but automatically making them back if the attempt was made on you, pretty cool, free hits always valuable). Flawless Attacks
   
   
9. UMD 1, Mythic Charge, Mobility 3 (avoiding even normal attacks ferchrissakes)
   
   
10. Stealth 1, Persuasion 2 (mobs staggered now), some other Mythic Feat to top it off, Mythic Sneak Attack thingy maybe.

Spells:-

No cures other than light to ease the start, and an aoe at the end; no mob-targeted other than low maintenance mob-only AoEs like Slow or Song of Discord. Mostly just all the buffs plus a few emergency powers (e.g. Break Enchantment, that type of thing), plus all the Trickery spells (you can't avoid taking them all eventually). Note that Reduce Person from the Trickery list comes in handy at just the right time, and then later Microscopic Proportions.

Obviously there's tons of directions you can go with Trickery, but this is just focused on wailing away at mobs while buffed to the gills, with a bit of low-maintenance CC, and Trickery 2/3 to strip the buffs from bosses and get out of tight spots.

 

[Haplo]

Pains me to see such a mediocre weapon as an end-game solution. On a Trickster no less.
But you do you

 

[Desiderius]

It’s nice for Blackwater at least.

 

[gurugeorge]

Pains me to see such a mediocre weapon as an end-game solution. On a Trickster no less.
But you do you

It makes sense in my head. (Sometimes one has to sacrifice efficiency for the sake of rp - heresy, I know )

 

[Infinitron]

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1184370/view/3330988721845040712

Update 1.3.5e

Friends!

The update 1.3.5e is here!

Beware of possible plot spoilers!


Quests

• Aponavicious remained friendly after having Dawnflower's Kiss stolen by the player character - fixed;
  
• Aeon's special dialog option in the Inevitable Excess DLC killed the wrong character - fixed;

Areas

• Fixed a critical issue which prevented from leaving Colyphyr after distributing the mythic level;

Classes & Mechanics

• The combination of Oracle and Loremaster now provides spells correctly. Note: if you have already taken Loremaster levels combined with Oracle in your savegame, you'll need to make a respect to get the spells;
  
• The Hunter class now works with the Loremaster prestige class;
  
• Restless Slumber hex now functions correctly;

Visual

• Pet companions now move correctly;

Items

• Sometimes the Radiance was not taken from the player when it was improved, which caused the player to have multiple copies of the sword - fixed;
  
• The effect from the Boots of Free Rein now has a correct icon;
  
• The "Ascpect of the Asp" amulet now functions correctly;
  
• The description of robe of fire now displays correctly;

Misс

• Rathimus in Defender's Heart remembered that he's a cleric, not a wizard, and stopped selling an extensive list of arcane spells;
  
• Added an epilogue for Camellia if she had an romance with a player character and he sacrificed himself in the game' s ending;
  
• Now Seelah actually goes off to look for Terendelev in the prologue, rather than standing still;
  
• Some areas on the Drezen map have been renamed for better consistency
  
• Fixed the door opening;
  
• Fixed item interaction and missing overtips;
  
• Fixed camera movement in the Threshold.

 

[Humbaba]

Patch notes should include a list of new bugs introduced.

 

[gurugeorge]

Good to see that the pets have rediscovered their sense of direction

 

[Desiderius]

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1184370/view/3330988721845040712

Update 1.3.5e

Friends!

The update 1.3.5e is here!

Beware of possible plot spoilers!


Quests

• Aponavicious remained friendly after having Dawnflower's Kiss stolen by the player character - fixed;
  
• Aeon's special dialog option in the Inevitable Excess DLC killed the wrong character - fixed;

Areas

• Fixed a critical issue which prevented from leaving Colyphyr after distributing the mythic level;

Classes & Mechanics

• The combination of Oracle and Loremaster now provides spells correctly. Note: if you have already taken Loremaster levels combined with Oracle in your savegame, you'll need to make a respect to get the spells;
  
• The Hunter class now works with the Loremaster prestige class;
  
• Restless Slumber hex now functions correctly;

Visual

• Pet companions now move correctly;

Items

• Sometimes the Radiance was not taken from the player when it was improved, which caused the player to have multiple copies of the sword - fixed;
  
• The effect from the Boots of Free Rein now has a correct icon;
  
• The "Ascpect of the Asp" amulet now functions correctly;
  
• The description of robe of fire now displays correctly;

Misс

• Rathimus in Defender's Heart remembered that he's a cleric, not a wizard, and stopped selling an extensive list of arcane spells;
  
• Added an epilogue for Camellia if she had an romance with a player character and he sacrificed himself in the game' s ending;
  
• Now Seelah actually goes off to look for Terendelev in the prologue, rather than standing still;
  
• Some areas on the Drezen map have been renamed for better consistency
  
• Fixed the door opening;
  
• Fixed item interaction and missing overtips;
  
• Fixed camera movement in the Threshold.

The streak of not fixing any of the obvious shit that needs fixing to play whole classes or you know use the main ability on one of the three generals remains unbroken.

Never seen anything like it.

 

[The_Mask]

The streak of not fixing any of the obvious shit that needs fixing to play whole classes or you know use the main ability on one of the three generals remains unbroken.

Never seen anything like it.

Dude, the wikipedia for Kingmaker says that some kingdom buffs are not working even today. What did you expect. *sigh*

 

[mediocrepoet]

The streak of not fixing any of the obvious shit that needs fixing to play whole classes or you know use the main ability on one of the three generals remains unbroken.

What's still broken? Just curious, I've been thinking about getting back to Wrath.

 

[Desiderius]

Metamagic for touch spells, Precise Companion for several Hunter archetypes, Favored Terrain, Armor Training nonfunctional for non-fighter subclasses which are designed around it, the "Hunt" ability on Ranger General that's central to the action economy and makes it competitive with the other types, or would if it were working. Ten other things you discover as your build plan runs into them after investing fifty hours in a playthrough and Owlcat refuses to even acknowledge them because they're too busy rushing out their next game.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Ten other things you discover as your build plan runs into them after investing fifty hours in a playthrough

Yeah, that's why I was asking.

 

[gongal]

So uh... does the game get any better after first hour or so? The current, quirky, cringy scooby doo vibe didn't feel too promising. It's like a bunch of fat lesbians took some pretty talented unity developers hostage.

 

[Desiderius]

So uh... does the game get any better after first hour or so? The current, quirky, cringy scooby doo vibe didn't feel too promising. It's like a bunch of fat lesbians took some pretty talented unity developers hostage.

There’s good replayability due to item/class design for the parts that are working.

 

[The_Mask]

cringy scooby doo vibe didn't feel too promising

The gang never splits up. Please... it's more like Swat Kats. You're coming out roaring from monster underground.