Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Desiderius]

Metamagic feats are occupied by Heighten, Persistent, Selective. We're primarily DC casting. Got no feats for anything else, since i need those for spell focuses and spell pen. But Devouring Lust Rod is indeed great, because it allows me to delay Ascended Element and is available early Act 3.

You don't need Spell Pen.

This issue is one of the reasons I think EK is overrated compared to say Seeker Sorc. The idea that casters don't need many feats is not in fact the case.

I don't get the Heighten. Higher level spells are higher level because they're generally better. Use them. There are a lot of ways to get Meta Feats - Shamans can get them from Hexes. Open up you mind. But the point is once you have them you can use your Mythics on favorite Meta to stack them. You can even play Phantasmal Mage or a Magi to get another layer.

 

[Desiderius]

Although I've been thinking about running a Skald AND Bard since I found out that Lethal Stance and Inspire Courage stack...

Spoiler

I wonder if anyone's ever run a party with all the stacking auras - bard, skald, incense, judge. What else is there, in theory? Some of the Domain abilities (does Guarded Hearth fall under one of those already)?

I think the only problem is that with at least two of those (incense and judge) they have a convenience cost (the incense aura range is quite small, and the judge only has like 3 shares of judgements at max level IIRC, and that can't be changed by mythics, unlike the judgements themselves).

That's pretty much what Haplo and I do. There are too many to fit in one party tho. Judge is way too Swift clogged I think and even Hearth can get a little clunky if you want to cut things down in one or two rounds. You can burn one of your Incense upgrades to increase the range.

For my Unfair run I stacked as many AC Auras as I could find to avoid attax from regular mobs.

 

[Desiderius]

If Ascendant Element is relevant you're not doing enough damage. If you want to go Evo I'd focus on Meta and the Meta Mythics over Ascendant, unless you want to go Lightning. There's a Rod that converts all damage to Unholy (and for whatever reason all the foes are Evil but still take full damage from Unholy) while also Maximizing it.

But isn't he better off just using rods for meta? He's playing a sorcerer who focuses on illusion primarily and thinking of something to use in specific circumstances when facing mind-immune enemies. Isn't it more of an investment to buy a feats and a mythic feat for something you're doing as a secondary function of your character? Also, casting metamagic as a full round action can be annoying when your target is sitting just out of range. Just spending one mythic ability seems much cheaper than buying feats that aren't as effective for most illusion magic on top of a mythic feat (which are more valuable than abilities) which only works on them rather than his primary function for his caracter.

You're ideally using the Max Unholy Rod I think?, although combining that with the Electric Gloves gives Daeran Unholy Stormbolts. That still leaves Bolster and Empower along with Persistent or whatever. I usually want Persistent on my Illusionists and Favorite on that if they've fixed it now? Idk man, got a Phantasmal Mage run on hold for Enhanced Edition or whatever when they fix things so I don't have the experience yet I do with physical damage MCs and have forgotten half of what I have.

The full action problem is why I prefer Magi/Wiz/Arcanist for nuking over Spontaneous.

But yeah you make good points, it's just that they work the same against taking Ascendant.

 

[razvedchiki]

outflank works with ranged attacks?

 

[Haplo]

outflank works with ranged attacks?

It does for some reason. Except the flanking AB bonus part, that is.

 

[Average Manatee]

I don't get the Heighten. Higher level spells are higher level because they're generally better.

It gives a lot of flexibility for sorcerers. In the end what matters most for controlling spells is how high your DC is and what save you target, pretty much all of them are effectively save or die as long as the enemy isn't immune. Casting a level 9 grease isn't exactly the same as Mass Icy Prison, but it's effectively close in a lot of instances. Even if you do eventually take Mass Icy Prison, you were able to cast level 8 Grease a bunch of times before that and can do so if you run out of level 9 spell slots. So you can economize on your spell selections a lot.

 

[Desiderius]

I don't get the Heighten. Higher level spells are higher level because they're generally better.

It gives a lot of flexibility for sorcerers. In the end what matters most for controlling spells is how high your DC is and what save you target, pretty much all of them are effectively save or die as long as the enemy isn't immune. Casting a level 9 grease isn't exactly the same as Mass Icy Prison, but it's effectively close in a lot of instances. Even if you do eventually take Mass Icy Prison, you were able to cast level 8 Grease a bunch of times before that and can do so if you run out of level 9 spell slots. So you can economize on your spell selections a lot.

Lol no it isn’t. What are you even doing? Let’s see, Rift of Ruin or Grease. Not a hard choice. Or just cast Stormbolts or whatever.

People call me autistic.

 

[Average Manatee]

Lol no it isn’t. What are you even doing? Let’s see, Rift of Ruin or Grease. Not a hard choice. Or just cast Stormbolts or whatever.

People call me autistic.

Rift of Ruin doesn't let you hit them when they fail their save. Stormbolts often has problems with its range.

Also there's spells with effects unreplicable by higher level spells, like Slow.

 

[IllusiveBrian]

I don't get the Heighten. Higher level spells are higher level because they're generally better.

It gives a lot of flexibility for sorcerers. In the end what matters most for controlling spells is how high your DC is and what save you target, pretty much all of them are effectively save or die as long as the enemy isn't immune. Casting a level 9 grease isn't exactly the same as Mass Icy Prison, but it's effectively close in a lot of instances. Even if you do eventually take Mass Icy Prison, you were able to cast level 8 Grease a bunch of times before that and can do so if you run out of level 9 spell slots. So you can economize on your spell selections a lot.

Lol no it isn’t. What are you even doing? Let’s see, Rift of Ruin or Grease. Not a hard choice. Or just cast Stormbolts or whatever.

People call me autistic.

Heighten was pretty good for my best jokes focused sorcerer. I agree with your point in general though.

 

[razvedchiki]

Wasnt a heavy shield+2 near the vrok in kenambres market? cant seem to find it anymore.

 

[Desiderius]

If you recruit the Inquisitors first they aren't there for the Vrock to kill.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Wasnt a heavy shield+2 near the vrok in kenambres market? cant seem to find it anymore.

Did you summon it before? inside the house near where you recuit Ember.

 

[RunningWolf]

Bolster and Empower are replicable with Rods. Heighten isn't. I remember there being a dagger in act 3 that passively gives you Empower uses. Gift of Blood or something. Does it work?

 

[razvedchiki]

yeah, it used to have 2 bodies of crusaders in front of it that had the shield. now its missing.

 

[IllusiveBrian]

Found out Oracle and Stigmatized Witch levels stack for the oracle curse, and prevent you from picking two curses. Except that if you start witch with something other than powerless prophecy and take Possessed oracle it adds powerless prophecy so you have two curses, and both stack your witch and oracle levels.

 

[Desiderius]

Bolster and Empower are replicable with Rods. Heighten isn't. I remember there being a dagger in act 3 that passively gives you Empower uses. Gift of Blood or something. Does it work?

They are, but not if you want to use a different rod, and rod activations are a limited resource. You want Bolster and Empower on every damaging spell if you can, so they're good candidates for Favorite Meta. Hellfire is no save so Persistent eventually isn't needed if you're nuking.

For a back-up against mind-immune that depends. But in any case Heighten is just the EK of meta. The opportunity cost isn't worth it.

 

[santino27]

yeah, it used to have 2 bodies of crusaders in front of it that had the shield. now its missing.

As far as I can tell, one of the recent patches removed it. Used to be that the bodies would sometimes spawn under the world, but a reload would fix it. Now, the bodies by the vrock are still there but there's no shield.

 

[Chaoneu]

yeah, it used to have 2 bodies of crusaders in front of it that had the shield. now its missing.

As far as I can tell, one of the recent patches removed it. Used to be that the bodies would sometimes spawn under the world, but a reload would fix it. Now, the bodies by the vrock are still there but there's no shield.

I had that bug too. But in my case shield appears in exit loot screen

 

[santino27]

yeah, it used to have 2 bodies of crusaders in front of it that had the shield. now its missing.

As far as I can tell, one of the recent patches removed it. Used to be that the bodies would sometimes spawn under the world, but a reload would fix it. Now, the bodies by the vrock are still there but there's no shield.

I had that bug too. But in my case shield appears in exit loot screen

Yeah... that same mechanic also let you loot the shield without killing the vrock, if you snuck someone close enough to the bodies before leaving the zone. Not sure if that's why they removed it, or if removing it was even intentional or instead yet another bug.

 

[gurugeorge]

I don't get the Heighten. Higher level spells are higher level because they're generally better.

It gives a lot of flexibility for sorcerers. In the end what matters most for controlling spells is how high your DC is and what save you target, pretty much all of them are effectively save or die as long as the enemy isn't immune. Casting a level 9 grease isn't exactly the same as Mass Icy Prison, but it's effectively close in a lot of instances. Even if you do eventually take Mass Icy Prison, you were able to cast level 8 Grease a bunch of times before that and can do so if you run out of level 9 spell slots. So you can economize on your spell selections a lot.

Yeah I agree with this. At some levels it somewhat solves the problem of "not enough spells" that the Sorcerer has - it's almost like a kind of a notional equivalent of extra spell slots for Wizards (you have more of a variety of spells to cast spontaneously at a level).

Also the spell lists in this system are quite "lumpy" there are often some levels where there's stuff that's useless to you, depending on your focus - and then some levels where all the buses come at once. Heighten solves that problem, smooths out having useful spells at every level.

 

[Desiderius]

If you've got lumpy levels you haven't fully explored what's already there and/or you've got other meta to fill those gaps. I sometimes think the design space is too big and people just like what they're used to.

Of course I rarely play Sorc in the first place because I like stacking the meta and casting it as standard action, but if I can find a good spell at every level for Ember I guarantee you can do it with the Sorc spellbook.

 

[Desiderius]

There should be three bodies. The one with the shield will be missing if you recruit the Inquisitors before summoning the Vrock. Shield was there when I played like a month ago.

 

[mediocrepoet]

If you've got lumpy levels you haven't fully explored what's already there and/or you've got other meta to fill those gaps. I sometimes think the design space is too big and people just like what they're used to.

Of course I rarely play Sorc in the first place because I like stacking the meta and casting it as standard action, but if I can find a good spell at every level for Ember I guarantee you can do it with the Sorc spellbook.

There likely is some of this at play. There are a ton of options, even more if you use mods, and there are a lot of decisions to make and process so it can be easier to just go with old favourites rather than to sit and consider each little thing.

 

[Haplo]

If you've got lumpy levels you haven't fully explored what's already there and/or you've got other meta to fill those gaps. I sometimes think the design space is too big and people just like what they're used to.

Of course I rarely play Sorc in the first place because I like stacking the meta and casting it as standard action, but if I can find a good spell at every level for Ember I guarantee you can do it with the Sorc spellbook.

Agreed. Between Persistant and Selective or Empowered and Bolstered and with new spell levels generally bringing stronger effects, I rarely miss Heighten nowadays.

It was quite OP in Kingmaker, where it raised the effective spell level by the amount of other metamagic effects applied. But that is no longer the case here.

 

[RunningWolf]

Do you guys ever use Prismatic Spray?

Prismatic Spray

20 points fire damage (Reflex half)
40 points acid damage (Reflex half)
80 points electricity damage (Reflex half)
Poison (Frequency 1/rd. for 6 rds.; Init. effect death; Sec. effect 1 Con/rd.; Cure 2 consecutive Fort saves)
Baleful Polymorph (Fortitude negates)
Insane, as insanity spell (Will negates)
Sent to another plane forever (Will negates)
Creature struck by two rays receives both rays' effects at once.

Looking at it it has at least ~40% chance to outright kill in huge AOE i wonder why nobody ever mentions it. Granted Damage and Poison are shit, but every other effect is pretty much instant death. And AOE so big that its easy to get an entire encounter with it.