Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Delterius]

I was thinking some Illusionist that goes Trickster to pick up as many Completely Normal Magic feats as he can (do they stack?) and then switch into Legend to get more points into your main caster stat. Idea would be to use Completely Normal magic to both Persistent and Highten Wierd as much as possible for best possible DC. Not sure what to do about those immune to illusions.

If you want the better DCs then you want to avoid Trickster entirely. CNS doesn't stack with itself, it's a Metamagic like any other. Stat Focus can't be used to increase DCs either. Trickster is mostly for utility perks, martial buffing, and crits. So in that sense you can run a Ray crit build though it will take a really long while to bloom and it will require Eldritch Knight or Loremaster levels to work.

Best possible DCs is Demon. Aeon and Azata have lesser DC bonuses as well, with the latter having forced re-rolls for enemy saves.

 

[RunningWolf]

Nothing can EVER compare to the power of having faster spell progression due to merging. Demon and others are only viable if you abuse exploits, like Glory domain, Expanded Arsenal, etc. Which is what im doing because fuck them for making Angel and Lich so stupidly overpowered.

 

[ArchAngel]

Nothing can EVER compare to the power of having faster spell progression due to merging. Demon and others are only viable if you abuse exploits, like Glory domain, Expanded Arsenal, etc. Which is what im doing because fuck them for making Angel and Lich so stupidly overpowered.

That just gives you access to stronger spells sooner but everyone eventually gets to lvl 17 and you got no advantage. Now I wonder who can sling best spells at that level.

 

[ArchAngel]

I was thinking some Illusionist that goes Trickster to pick up as many Completely Normal Magic feats as he can (do they stack?) and then switch into Legend to get more points into your main caster stat. Idea would be to use Completely Normal magic to both Persistent and Highten Wierd as much as possible for best possible DC. Not sure what to do about those immune to illusions.

If you want the better DCs then you want to avoid Trickster entirely. CNS doesn't stack with itself, it's a Metamagic like any other. Stat Focus can't be used to increase DCs either. Trickster is mostly for utility perks, martial buffing, and crits. So in that sense you can run a Ray crit build though it will take a really long while to bloom and it will require Eldritch Knight or Loremaster levels to work.

Best possible DCs is Demon. Aeon and Azata have lesser DC bonuses as well, with the latter having forced re-rolls for enemy saves.

Ah that is shame I was hoping it could stack but maybe they figured it would be too strong. But from I can read from Demon you can get +3 DC and 2x roll for any spell (and +2 from Mythic Spell Focus). I wonder if anyone else can get something similar. How long do these aspects of demons last when activated, can you activate both lesser and greater at same time (+3 is lesser, 2x save is greater) and how often between rests can these be used? Trickster into Legend has bonuses always active.

 

[RunningWolf]

That just gives you access to stronger spells sooner but everyone eventually gets to lvl 17 and you got no advantage. Now I wonder who can sling best spells at that level.

Spells scale with caster levels. Spell levels determines DC. You get more caster levels with mergers, you get more spells, you get higher DC, you get better spells.

So you "just" get incredibly fast spell access to level 9, stronger, more potent spells on a spell caster. There's nothing else to a full caster. Eventual catch up is irrelevant. Do you want to play "best" caster for 70% of the game or the last 20%? And merged mythics also give you arguably best spells in the game on top of it all.

Yeah, nothing can compete.

The only reason im plying non merged Demon caster is because i hate retarded Lich path and want to kill all the Demon Lords.

 

[ArchAngel]

That just gives you access to stronger spells sooner but everyone eventually gets to lvl 17 and you got no advantage. Now I wonder who can sling best spells at that level.

Spells scale with caster levels. Spell levels determines DC. You get more caster levels with mergers, you get more spells, you get higher DC, you get better spells.

So you "just" get incredibly fast spell access to level 9, stronger, more potent spells on a spell caster. There's nothing else to a full caster. Eventual catch up is irrelevant. Do you want to play "best" caster for 70% of the game or the last 20%? And merged mythics also give you arguably best spells in the game on top of it all.

Yeah, nothing can compete.

The only reason im plying non merged Demon caster is because i hate retarded Lich path and want to kill all the Demon Lords.

In this case I want it for last 30% :D

 

[Delterius]

But from I can read from Demon you can get +3 DC

way more than +3DC because you can stack aspects

 

[Agesilaus]

I won the tavern battle on the second attempt. This time I did not charge the minotaur. I saw the minotaur focus on my main character, so I squeezed him through the friendly lines and ran behind the half-orc leader lady. She finally decided to do her job. Loot was meh, a pile of money and a decent unique weapon of a sort I don't even use.

Act I definitely sucks until you reach the cultist hideout to try saving the underground people,

you mean the maze?

Yes. I'm playing on core with TBS. In the maze I realised the game is not fucking around with the combat difficulty. I did not kill the water elemental (although I did sneak behind it and grab the ring). Also, the truth of the maze and wendaug's role in everything is actually somewhat interesting and quite dark. I suspect I will think of it more like Irenicus' dungeon in the long run (pain in the arse starting point), but it definitely gives your character an interesting companion choice and way to express his general morality/world-view and goals.

wendaug spider lady

She makes an amazing Instinctual Warrior tank. (Very fitting rp-wise too.)

wendaug spider lady

She makes an amazing Instinctual Warrior tank. (Very fitting rp-wise too.)

Wenduag and Lann came level 1 with really nice stats, you can go many different ways with them.
But fuck me sideways I always go Huntsmaster or Faith Hunter with Lann....

I was very tempted to make wendaug a disciple of the pike, would have been an amusing sight. However, her dex is so incredibly high that I kept her a fighter with finesse and dual-wielding. Also, she has been throwing cold iron masterwork javelins at all the demons, laser-accuracy = consistent damage every turn.

 

[Haplo]

That was a nice attack roll

 

[Delterius]

thanks lann. you're so awesome lann.

 

[Stoned Ape]

I was very tempted to make wendaug a disciple of the pike, would have been an amusing sight. However, her dex is so incredibly high that I kept her a fighter with finesse and dual-wielding. Also, she has been throwing cold iron masterwork javelins at all the demons, laser-accuracy = consistent damage every turn.

If you wanted to you could take FTR 5, Disciple of the Pike 15 with Wendaug and then get Fighter's Finesse (you need FTR 5 to qualify for advanced weapon training feats in order to pick that up). This would get her weapon finesse for all spears, then at mythic rank 2 she could get Mythic Finesse for + dex mod to damage with all light and finessable weapons (including light shields).

You could add on the shield bash line of feats and duel-wield shortspear & light shield with her (if you pick up shield mastery and bashing finish she can hit almost as hard with the shield as the spear), or situationally switch her weapon over to longspear as required.

Mythic Piranha Strike really helps with her damage output, so I'd try to get that at Mythic rank 4. (Rupture Restraints and Last Stand are the best two Mythic Ability picks for all front liners in my opinion).

 

[Haplo]

thanks lann. you're so awesome lann.

Poor Lann took a hit for the team.
On Unfair the Str drain from these shadows is pretty brutal (like -10 Str per hit).

 

[RunningWolf]

Demon DC Arcane bloodline Sorc - taking 5 levels of loremaster for an extra feat. Yay or Nay?

 

[Delterius]

Demon DC Arcane bloodline Sorc - taking 5 levels of loremaster for an extra feat. Yay or Nay?

5 levels of loremaster means delaying your bloodline powers. i'd only go loremaster if it meant getting some impossible spell from another school. like greater command.

 

[Daidre]

So you "just" get incredibly fast spell access to level 9, stronger, more potent spells on a spell caster. There's nothing else to a full caster. Eventual catch up is irrelevant. Do you want to play "best" caster for 70% of the game or the last 20%? And merged mythics also give you arguably best spells in the game on top of it all.

Best DC caster for the 70% of the game is Azata, best DC cater at the max Mythic power is Demon. Lich does not have a forced reroll for the save or suck spells and that automatically puts him in the lower category. And Weird casted with CL 17 = Weird at CL 30 on the character with the same stats, feats and items. Previously, Lich could at least get +CHA from the Lord of Undead, but that was hit with the nerf hammer recently, but Demon still gets permanent up to +7 Int from Aspect of the Coloxus and can cast 3 spells per round in the rage (standard, move and quick action), not mentioning all + DC and -Enemy Saves he gets from different aspects and Rage itself (around +7-10).
Lich had his own niche with some direct damage spells that scale well from CL, but DC casting (I mean Wierd boss to death in the first round) is the one area where he has barely any pros comparing to other mythic paths, beside his faster spell progression.

 

[gurugeorge]

Does the extra roll from a Persistent-ized spell stack with the Azata's Favourable Magic reroll?

 

[RunningWolf]

Best DC caster for the 70% of the game is Azata, best DC cater at the max Mythic power is Demon. Lich does not have a forced reroll for the save or suck spells and that automatically puts him in the lower category. And Weird casted with CL 17 = Weird at CL 30 on the character with the same stats, feats and items. Previously, Lich could at least get +CHA from the Lord of Undead, but that was hit with the nerf hammer recently, but Demon still gets permanent up to +7 Int from Aspect of the Coloxus and can cast 3 spells per round in the rage (standard, move and quick action), not mentioning all + DC and -Enemy Saves he gets from different aspects and Rage itself (around +7-10).
Lich had his own niche with some direct damage spells that scale well from CL, but DC casting (I mean Wierd boss to death in the first round) is the one area where he has barely any pros comparing to other mythic paths, beside his faster spell progression.

His question was "So guys what would be strongest main character pure caster?" not DC caster. The answer is any merged mythic. The end.
DC spells arent the strongest majority of the game. No SR, no DC, no immunity of any kinds spells are stronger. In fact the only reason DC is viable at all on Unfair is because of exploits. And you get Wierd what, an entire Act faster as a lich? Buids that shine in the end game < builds that shine majority of the game.
Stop comparing end game builds and start thinking how it plays in every act. Merging > all demonic aspects combined until the very end, because you get so few rages. And when you don't rage(most fights) you basically have no path.

 

[RunningWolf]

5 levels of loremaster means delaying your bloodline powers. i'd only go loremaster if it meant getting some impossible spell from another school. like greater command.

You don't delay anything if you take them after level 15. Arcane bloodline gets School Power 15, basically nothing else after and arcane apotheosis is garbage.

 

[Daidre]

Stop comparing end game builds and start thinking how it plays in every act. Merging > all demonic aspects combined until the very end, because you get so few rages. And when you don't rage(most fights) you basically have no path.

Well, Merged Angel is the strongest damage-oriented-caster Mythic, no arguments here. My issue is with Lich, who is presented as casting-oriented Mythic but ended up in the weird place where it has absolutely nothing to offer to improve spellcasting beside unique spells and boosted CL. No attribute bonus, no +DC, no forced reroll, no damage per dice effects, no extra spells per round from free Quicken or Move Action.
It is sad.

 

[ga♥]

Stop comparing end game builds and start thinking how it plays in every act. Merging > all demonic aspects combined until the very end, because you get so few rages. And when you don't rage(most fights) you basically have no path.

Well, Merged Angel is the strongest damage-oriented-caster Mythic, no arguments here. My issue is with Lich, who is presented as casting-oriented Mythic but ended up in the weird place where it has absolutely nothing to offer to improve spellcasting beside unique spells and boosted CL. No attribute bonus, no +DC, no forced reroll, no damage per dice effects, no extra spells per round from free Quicken or Move Action.
It is sad.

Imho Angel is sad, should have been nerfed.
(I think they nerfed the spell progression for spontaneous casters now? but this applies to Lich too).
I agree though that for RP reason a lich should get at least a symbolic attribute boost.

 

[ArchAngel]

Stop comparing end game builds and start thinking how it plays in every act. Merging > all demonic aspects combined until the very end, because you get so few rages. And when you don't rage(most fights) you basically have no path.

Well, Merged Angel is the strongest damage-oriented-caster Mythic, no arguments here. My issue is with Lich, who is presented as casting-oriented Mythic but ended up in the weird place where it has absolutely nothing to offer to improve spellcasting beside unique spells and boosted CL. No attribute bonus, no +DC, no forced reroll, no damage per dice effects, no extra spells per round from free Quicken or Move Action.
It is sad.

This is why I don't like Lich and Angel, you end up not being a spellcaster, you are just Lich or Angel because their special spells are always better than all others except maybe some buffs.
What I am really looking for is Mythic that can best buff standard spells.

 

[Cyberarmy]

You can always pick a martial class then pick angel/lich? My first lich playthrough was an invulnarable rager that stacked -\DR. Made hell of tank with OK damage capabilities.

Also my Azata was Mad Dog/Gendarme, had really fun with it even with buggy charge at the release.

 

[IllusiveBrian]

Does the extra roll from a Persistent-ized spell stack with the Azata's Favourable Magic reroll?

Yes. Favorable Magic forces the enemy to roll twice and take the worse result any time they make a save against your spells, persistent spell forces them to save again if they pass the first time, so they effectively have to pass 4 rolls on the first spellcast (persistent doesn't apply to rolls on subsequent rounds, but Favorable Magic does):

Spoiler

 

[razvedchiki]

You can always pick a martial class then pick angel/lich? My first lich playthrough was an invulnarable rager that stacked -\DR. Made hell of tank with OK damage capabilities.

Also my Azata was Mad Dog/Gendarme, had really fun with it even with buggy charge at the release.

can you stack good enough dr?

 

[Cyberarmy]

You can always pick a martial class then pick angel/lich? My first lich playthrough was an invulnarable rager that stacked -\DR. Made hell of tank with OK damage capabilities.

Also my Azata was Mad Dog/Gendarme, had really fun with it even with buggy charge at the release.

can you stack good enough dr?

Yeah, if I remember right I was near 30 when entering Midnight Fane for the first time. Also full immune to sneak attacks and critical strikes. Also a sword and board build with lots of attacks (including a powerful headbut from demonic way mythic) that heal very well with vampiric blade.

Effectively "soloed" act 4 and 5. Only got 2 buffbots with me, skeletal bard and Nenio.