Turn-Based Tactics Phantom Doctrine - "tactical Cold War conspiracy thriller" by Hard West devs

[ERYFKRAD]

Kacper Szymczak after gathering all the feedback, do you have a post mortem about phantom doctrine?

Rng>deterministic

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Is this game worth it for someone who wouldn't touch nu-xcom with a 10-foot (jobless) pole? I'm assuming with all the drama it will go into bargain bin soon enough.

 

[Lhynn]

Is this game worth it for someone who wouldn't touch nu-xcom with a 10-foot (jobless) pole? I'm assuming with all the drama it will go into bargain bin soon enough.

It's only worth it as one of those bland games that you play between good releases.
If you have a backlog it's not worth playing.

 

[LESS T_T]

Also he will do a talk about design of PD at GDC: https://schedule.gdconf.com/session/theme-oriented-design-the-case-of-phantom-doctrine/863254

Video of the talk: https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1025703/Theme-Oriented-Design-The-Case

Session Name: Theme Oriented Design: The Case of 'Phantom Doctrine'

Speaker(s): Kacper Szymczak

Company Name(s): Artificer

Track / Format: Independent Games Summit

Overview: Reviewers say Creative Forge conveys its themes well. This is a design postmortem of 'Phantom Doctrine' (cold war espionage turn-based tactical), narrowly-focused on fleshing out a theme using gameplay systems. Kacper will talk about tricky relationships between theme and scope, systems, gameplay interactions and loops, and more, providing design methods, ways of thinking and step by step guides on how certain issues can be avoided, especially in system-heavy games like 'Phantom Doctrine'.

Artificer is a cool name for game studio. Kacper Szymczak

https://twitter.com/artfcr
https://www.linkedin.com/company/artificergames/about/

A games development studio based in Warsaw, Poland, with a veteran crew and a serious backing. Aiming to punch above its weight by empowering the team and promoting sustainable, timeless craftsmanship.

 

[LESS T_T]

Artificer got investment from Good Shepherd, the publisher of Phantom Doctrine and Hard West: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-04-10-good-shepherd-buys-majority-stake-in-artificer

Good Shepherd buys majority stake in Artificer
Polish startup has a team of 30, with experience working on Dead Island and Call of Juarez

Good Shepherd Entertainment has acquired a majority stake in Artificer, a Polish studio still at work on its debut game

The value of the deal was not disclosed, but Good Shepherd said that the team previously worked on Hard West and Phantom Doctrine -- both of which were developed by the Warsaw-based CreativeForge Games.

Artificer is also based in Warsaw. It has a team of more than 30 people, with experience working on the Dead Island and Call of Juarez series. It is currently working on an unannounced project, the details of which will be released soon.

"We've been impressed by the quality and unique talent present in Poland, and we intend to expand Good Shepherd Entertainment's long-standing presence in the region with our newly formed Artificer relationship," said Good Shepherd CEO Brian Grigsby in a statement.

Blazej Krakowiak, Artificer's vice president of business and marketing, added: "Good Shepherd is a trusted partner, with a fantastic team we know will lend Artificer its strengths, while guaranteeing the studio's independence."

When we talked to Good Shepherd in July last year, director of corporate development Paul Hanraets said that it was ready to make larger investments in its partners and projects in order to grow. You can read that interview here.

Meanwhile at Creative Forge Games, strange (in terms of timing and format) announcement of their new project:

 

[Jimmious]

A good Gladiator turn based game would be really cool

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

A good Gladiator turn based game would be really cool

There's Age of Gladiators 2: Rome; seems to have mixed user reviews on Steam.
I haven't tried it yet.

 

[Galdred]

How was the game considered a complete failure?
It has 1400 Steam Reviews.
That means probably around 70.000 sales, for a 39,9999 € base price.
That doesn't seem horribly bad even if you tailor in all the "providers" taking their share (Steam, VAT, ...).
Invisible Inc made 3300 Reviews over a longer time (so with more frequent discounts), and a lower base price.
Battle Brothers got 5400 reviews, and it is the exemple of a succesful indie game.
Both are higher, but not insanely higher.

 

[Burning Bridges]

The developers were all laid off. Hardly a hallmark of big success.

Also if you read between the lines of the reviews, the hours played, or the lack of discussion in the forum, it's a bland game with frustrating gameplay.

 

[Galdred]

The developers were all laid off. Hardly a hallmark of big success.

Also if you read between the lines of the reviews, the hours played, or the lack of discussion in the forum, it's a bland game with frustrating gameplay.

My points weren't about the quality of the game. I was just wondering how a game that had a sale figures similar to Invisible Inc (Invisible Inc is older. Phantom Doctrine sold less, but is more expensive, so overall, it is similar) could be an abysmal financial failure for its developer (Klei is a large independent studio geared for big hits).
If you need minecraft level of success to keep your studio afloat there is a large planning problem.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Depends on the patience of the investors I guess.

If you have company like EA or Rockstar a million is nothing, but in this case they may have expected to make their millions back immediately. If the game did not or barely broke even, they probably lost patience right away.

I believe this is the rule when you go to venture capital. They give you a few millions but if you don't deliver, they don't give you any more and immediately liquidate you.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[rezaf]

Burning Bridges has it right, the game was just not really good.

It was reasonably polished, but the evidence minigame was all style without substance and battles played out very stereotypically - actually getting into a battle was HIGHLY discouraged and if you went the stealth route every mission played out almost exactly like the one before.

 

[cvv]

How was the game considered a complete failure?
It has 1400 Steam Reviews.
That means probably around 70.000 sales, for a 39,9999 € base price.
Invisible Inc made 3300 Reviews over a longer time (so with more frequent discounts), and a lower base price.

Myeah no, that's a very wobbly extrapolation. No telling what the sales actually were.

Also I'd bet Invisible sold much more, if only because Klei has an enormous fanbase cultivated on Don't Starve. Also in terms of assets it looks like a much smaller and cheaper project than PD. Even despite all this I have the feeling it wasn't as profitable as Klei imagined, especially after the multi-million success with Don't Starve.

 

[baud]

How was the game considered a complete failure?
It has 1400 Steam Reviews.
That means probably around 70.000 sales, for a 39,9999 € base price.
Invisible Inc made 3300 Reviews over a longer time (so with more frequent discounts), and a lower base price.

Myeah no, that's a very wobbly extrapolation. No telling what the sales actually were.

Also I'd bet Invisible sold much more, if only because Klei has an enormous fanbase cultivated on Don't Starve. Also in terms of assets it looks like a much smaller and cheaper project than PD. Even despite all this I have the feeling it wasn't as profitable as Klei imagined, especially after the multi-million success with Don't Starve.

Also there are more systems in PD, like the whole strategic part, so it means more programming, so more costs in programming and QA. And the number of assets seems way bigger, just counting thing like all the weapons and the character creator.

So even if they made the same amount of money in the first months of sale, the higher cost of PD would be a big penalty. The company structure is also important, indie vs owned by shareholders: Klei just has to make enough money to keep the lights on, whereas CFG had to make investors happy.

Also for the sale numbers, Steamspy says 50k-100k for FD and 500k-1M for II.

 

[Burning Bridges]

The game was released ~6 months too early. Otherwise they could have gone Epic Store exclusive and blame "toxic gamers" for their failure.

Also there are more systems in PD, like the whole strategic part, so it means more programming, so more costs in programming and QA. And the number of assets seems way bigger, just counting thing like all the weapons and the character creator.

So even if they made the same amount of money in the first months of sale, the higher cost of PD would be a big penalty. The company structure is also important, indie vs owned by shareholders: Klei just has to make enough money to keep the lights on, whereas CFG had to make investors happy.

Maybe someone can make a list of all the countless attempts to tackle a worthy successor for the turnbased masterworks and then give up 1/3 of the way and release some crap. Jagged Alliance: whateveritwascalled, Omerta etc It seems to be a field that attracts amateurs who don't know what they are getting into.

 

[CRD]

solved

 

[Infinitron]

Phantom Doctrine at Digital Dragons:



http://digitaldragons.pl/programme/speakers/kacper-szymczak-2/

Kacper Szymczak
Theme Oriented Design: The Case of 'Phantom Doctrine'
Speaker’s bio

Kacper is a designer with 12+ years of experience, who works on a range of different game genres (fps, rts, tbt).

Speech description

Reviewers say Creative Forge conveys its themes well, and this is a design post-mortem of Phantom Doctrine (cold war espionage turn-based tactical) narrowly-focused on fleshing out a theme using gameplay systems. Kacper will talk about tricky relationships between theme and scope, systems, gameplay interactions and loops, and more, providing design methods, ways of thinking and step by step guides on how certain issues can be avoided, especially in system-heavy games like Phantom Doctrine.

Exact same talk as GDC, apparently!

 

[CyberWhale]

A good Gladiator turn based game would be really cool

 

[Jimmious]

Yeah that was cool indeed

 

[Zombra]

If I were to play this OR Hard West, but not both, which one should I play?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

If I were to play this OR Hard West, but not both, which one should I play?

The lack of melee has put me off hard west till date even though I have it.

 

[ArchAngel]

If I were to play this OR Hard West, but not both, which one should I play?

PD is a more complete and polished game.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Zombra]

Down to $12 on Steam daily deal flash sale. Grabbed it.