KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[HansDampf]

a lot of you seem to be missing a crucial point: it became so popular with gamers in some part due to simplified and streamlined UI. so it's only natural they want to use that stuff in PP, it has to be accessible to sell.

Everybody understands this. But wasn't crowdfunding supposed to circumvent the mass market and instead focus on niche markets? PP shouldn't have to sell millions.

 

[Mazisky]

Xcom 2 engine is shit, except for the expansion version that is a bit less shit.

It was quite buggy and poorly optimized, however the Wotc version is a lot better and the game looks good for a turn based.

However, as long someone remakes Ufo defense with good graphics can use whatever engine he wants, it'll be good

 

[UnstableVoltage]

a lot of you seem to be missing a crucial point: it became so popular with gamers in some part due to simplified and streamlined UI. so it's only natural they want to use that stuff in PP, it has to be accessible to sell.

Everybody understands this. But wasn't crowdfunding supposed to circumvent the mass market and instead focus on niche markets? PP shouldn't have to sell millions.

Crowdfunding is to get a project going. It doesn't mean we have to settle for "breaking even". We want our game to be a commercial success and then the studio can continue to support existing games and develop new ones.

 

[Israfael]

Crowdfunding is to get a project going. It doesn't mean we have to settle for "breaking even". We want our game to be a commercial success and then the studio can continue to support existing games and develop new ones.

I'm sorry, but it's straight outta Fargo's playbook

Julian said he'd go with the simulationist approach, and this is rolling ahead to become just another board game like Firaxis abominations.

 

[Spockrock]

Everybody understands this. But wasn't crowdfunding supposed to circumvent the mass market and instead focus on niche markets?

that's the crux of the issue. crowdfunding will never be enough to fund a game like PP. you can't sustain a studio-wide effort with those funds. I'm guessing keeping the studio going costs around 200000-400000 USD per month. the founders definitely took out a bunch of loans to get it all going, plus their games' sales help with that. suppose they go the way of staying true to original X-Com as much as possible. they'll probably sell 300k copies that way. at 25 USD that's 7 million over a year or so. that's barely enough to keep the studio going. would you rather get one "perfect" game and have the studio go bankrupt? or see the studio compete with Firaxis and actually have the resources to make more games, evolving the formula?

to me the answer is obvious.

 

[Infinitron]

One man's mass market sellout is another man's niche. For the big AAA players, nuXCOM itself is a "niche market" curiousity.

I'm sorry, but it's straight outta Fargo's playbook

Not the best example to use considering the Codex probably would have liked Fargo's games more if they'd been less uncompromisingly hardcore.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

less uncompromisingly hardcore.

Wut.

 

[Infinitron]

Fargo is the guy who made the RPG where you create a party of four characters with dozens of skills, the RPG with walls of text and no combat, and is releasing a turn-based blobber (the most niche RPG genre there is) later this year. How does that become synonymous with "selling out to the mass market"?

Phoenix Point probably would have had TUs if it was following the Fargo playbook.

 

[ArchAngel]

Fargo is the guy who made the RPG where you create a party of four characters with dozens of skills, the RPG with walls of text and no combat, and is releasing a turn-based blobber (the most niche RPG genre there is) later this year. How does that become synonymous with "selling out to the mass market"?

Phoenix Point probably would have had TUs if it was following the Fargo playbook.

Nobody was bashing hardcore aspects, we bashed half assed aspects and both his games so far were full of those.

 

[ArchAngel]

Xcom 2 engine is shit, except for the expansion version that is a bit less shit.

It was quite buggy and poorly optimized, however the Wotc version is a lot better and the game looks good for a turn based.

However, as long someone remakes Ufo defense with good graphics can use whatever engine he wants, it'll be good

I don't want that. I want the genre to move forward with quality design and PP so far is doing exactly that.
Open Xcom is a very fun game and it does not need better graphics.

 

[Alienman]

Silent Storm level of destruction and ballistics would be nice though. Imagine seeing plasma shots melt holes in walls and such.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

where you create a party of four characters with dozens of skills

This is hardcore because?

the RPG with walls of text and no combat

TTON had no combat? For that matter, did it not have three separate "HP" Pools of Strength, Agility, and Intelligence, later dumbed-down to a single HP Bar? Sounds like a compromise to me.

, and is releasing a turn-based blobber (the most niche RPG genre there is) later this year.

Niche isn't "uncompromisingly hardcore". And by Crom, "uncompromising" is no adjective to apply to the Inxile games so far.

 

[Israfael]

Not the best example to use considering the Codex probably would have liked Fargo's games more if they'd been less uncompromisingly hardcore.

Well, obviously i'm talking about the obvious divergence between the things that were promised and the things we received. You can only use the scammed fools backers' money for so long before they'd refuse to support you en masse because you deliver not what was promised.

 

[Jimmious]

So we decided it's shit? From the first alpha demo? That's it?

 

[agentorange]

Like Archangel and Spockrock already said, I don't care about seeing a one to one remake of X-Com. I dislike remakes in general because they are inevitably pointless or in some cases even damaging to the original (see Silent Hill remakes), but more so in the case of a 2D, sprite based game like X-Com. The X-Com style is simple, stylized, easy to identify, timeless, as such making it more realistic and 3D based would cause it to look worse, if anything. Not to mention the feasibility of such a 1:1 remake. Bringing something from 2D to 3D would already require reinterpretation of the sprites, at which point people would complain that it is not being faithful to the original. (For an example of this look at the different manner in which the sprite based monsters of Doom were reinterpreted for both Doom 3 and nuDoom; both games were remaking elements of the original, and ended up with wildly different results, both of which get their own shares of criticism). Then there are issues like how would they possibly handle the large scale, totally destructible environments of the original while simultaneously having modern, high fidelity graphics; or how would they handle the large amount of troops you could bring along in the original. Trying to be a 1:1 remake would end up being nitpicked apart for all the concessions they would have to make, so why not spend that time making some new.

tl;dr the original X-Com will always exist and if I want to play the original X-Com I will install it and launch it. Having Gollop lead a superficial remake would be a waste of his talents.

As it is, the UI was the one part of X-Com that I never cared for, a mess of icons that I got sick of clicking over and over (even though from a visual style point of view there are messy, overbearing UIs that I do like, such as in SS1). Just because X-Com is a masterpiece, and was the first to do a lot of things in the genre, doesn't mean there are elements that are above being experimented with or, possibly, improved upon.

 

[DeepOcean]

Not the best example to use considering the Codex probably would have liked Fargo's games more if they'd been less uncompromisingly half assed.

Fixed the sentence so it is accurate now.

 

[Grotesque]

lul at the retards that say they can reinstall x-com if they want a similar game.
You really must be a cretin indeed if that moronic statement in your mind makes any sense.

Making a similar game and improve on a solid foundation is not the same as cutting features on left and right (which today is synonym with the retarded term "streamlining") and not the same as making a true successor to a beloved game.

The number one factors why someone would not play a game like TFTD today is graphic fidelity/resolution and ease of UI usage, not because of time units, not because of indepth base management or complicated simulationist approach.
So even if you make a perfect mechanics wise copy of TFTD today (even though even this task is a gargantuan undertaking for some e.g. System Shock fiasco) and succeed in keeping the atmosphere and the artistic fidelity of the original and also succeed in bringing it to the graphical quality of this millennium, I bet you could have a successful game if marketed properly despite the fact that the slurping cretins that playtest your game internally would scratch their heads and say the game is too hard on their brain and thus not fun.
But how much money is enough to appease the ego, keep the lights on and also stay true to a vision without selling your soul to the allmighty dollar??

Too bad Jake Solomon had the funds and whored himself first so he'll have a blockbuster on his hands (as a turn based game allows you to) and brought the bar so low in this genre that everybody wants to emulate his success.
And the first in line who wants to have this success is Gollop and I understand he had a bitter pill to swallow when seeing his beloved "child" of a game reimagined, castrated & dumbed down and sold as an original, out of the box experience to the masses that never acknowledged the existence of his superior game.

So how successful Gollop wants to be with Pheonix Point?
The amount of whoring he is prepared to do would be a clear indicator because now he tries to walk a fine line between appeasing the old guard gamers that appreciated his product for its inherent qualities and the unwashed masses that were swept-back by a neutered version of his game in every aspect and by a binary combat mechanics.
The future updates will have a revelatory effect regarding this game but don't get your hopes high because I bet Gollop dreams as being invited at game conferences to explain under the spotlight how the hell did he pulled a game like Pheonix Point, a masterpiece which merged with exquisite candor the old and the new, the same as Solomon was jerked off by the media for bringing to life a gem like XCOM.

 

[Shog-goth]

 

[Spockrock]

lul at the retards that say they can reinstall x-com if they want a similar game.
You really must be a cretin indeed if that moronic statement in your mind makes any sense.

so I guess Fallout is too old to play, and you just have to settle for Fallout 4 these days, right?

 

[Mazisky]

lul at the retards that say they can reinstall x-com if they want a similar game.

The number one factors why someone would not play a game like TFTD today is graphic fidelity/resolution and ease of UI usage, not because of time units, not because of indepth base management or complicated simulationist approach.

Yeah, those evil developers and producers with million dollars marketing studies are all unaware of this, that's why they make more casual games.

They need a commercial genius like you...open their eyes son!!! How can you be so smart!

 

[UnstableVoltage]

Not the best example to use considering the Codex probably would have liked Fargo's games more if they'd been less uncompromisingly hardcore.

Well, obviously i'm talking about the obvious divergence between the things that were promised and the things we received. You can only use the scammed fools backers' money for so long before they'd refuse to support you en masse because you deliver not what was promised.

What exactly were you promised, that we haven't/aren't delivering?

 

[PanteraNera]

so I guess Fallout is too old to play, and you just have to settle for Fallout 4 these days, right?

On the contrary, it is just sad for some people (like me) that great games, masterpieces, like Fallout, like Jagged Alliance, like UFO:EU never got true successors, at least regarding game-play. I am more and more puzzled by the opposition to that.

Nobody from the people I care about in this thread ever said that they wanted a 1:1 copy of UFO:EU.

What people are concerned about, is that PP will be just as other successors of old games, dumped down in the mechanic/gameplay department.

We do not know if a modern complex(=lots of solutions) (tactical) game, would be a commercial fail or a success.
Unfortunately with PP we will still not find out. From a business point of view I totally understand and don't blame you going the "save" mainstream rout. But as a gamer my dreams are utterly shattered. People hoped that with kickstarter/indies there will come a new age of incline, that some people have the vision and the balls to do things differently.

But nope we live still in the dark ages of decline.

 

[Zombra]

What exactly were you promised, that we haven't/aren't delivering?

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

I like new things. If you just want a "modern" X-Com remake then you have Xenonauts but keep in mind it's a bland game too afraid to walk out of the shadow of X-Com. I want something that takes the ideas that worked in X-com, all the contemporaries, and the reboots and makes something different. I enjoyed the Long War mod for Xcom and Xcom 2 for this reason. I was annoyed by the simplifications in the reboot too but from what I've seen Phoenix Point is going to enrich the geoscape stuff and the tactical stuff. There's nothing wrong with having simple mechanics that increase in complexity over time but are still comprehensible to those normies without autism.

 

[Shog-goth]

There's nothing wrong with having simple mechanics that increase in complexity over time but are still comprehensible to those normies without autism.

Or there's nothing wrong with having complex mechanics that increase tactical solutions but are still comprehensible to those normies without ADHD.