Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Butter]

What's the point of having attributes if every class is expected to conform to a particular archetype?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

What's the point of having attributes if every class is expected to conform to a particular archetype?

because classes are archetypes?

 

[Desiderius]

you’ve reified

Dunno why your tits are so perked up but you should use these words bro.

The first word was sufficient. Ignorance is nothing to take pride in, though all around you strut.

 

[Desiderius]

While I agree that early game is the the best part, I don't understand why lots of people are saying that Act 2 and reaching Defiance Bay is beginning of the downfall.

The city itself, along with the quests there, is designed pretty well, plus the newly opened wilderness areas are also ok.
The downfall starts in Act 3, where it's obvious and in your face that devs were rushing to finish the game - best example are the quests in Twin Elms, where in one you kill dwarves in red dungeon, and in other you kill elves in blue dungeon - epitome of laziness.

Act IV is basically nonexistent and devs clearly didn't give a shit about anything at this stage, which lead to anti-climatic ending.

WM1&2 are top notch, but everyone knows this already.

Also, I don't get the complaints about extensive lore-dumps. Everyone that's shitting on PoE is acting like in each conversation you are bombarded with blocks of text about NPCs family history and the state of local agriculture. I don't get this feeling at all - dialogues are rather short, and the only lore dumps are simple and crucial ones - world's geography, some metahpysics (the Wheel, souls etc), major events (i.e Saint's War), gods, factions, etc. No one is forcing you to interact with golden plate NPCs, which seem to trigger people the most. On my first run, after checking few of them I figured out that it's meaningless and ignored them completely for the rest of the game.

The hard relativism makes it hard to keep track of who’s who. I mean I never got Mordor mixed up with the Shire but don’t ask me the first thing about Readceras. I mean what language is that even from?

 

[Desiderius]

What's the point of having attributes if every class is expected to conform to a particular archetype?

Cleric or Wizard is a different matter than Healer or DPS.

 

[Haplo]

But classes in RPGs are meant to be archetypes.

And why, exactly?

People are whining about lack of innovation in cRPGs and same tropes being rehashed over and over again, but when the Soyer comes up with something new and different, which can lead to some interesting char builds, same people are instantly triggered. Seems like the irrational hate for Balance Man is clouding some people's ability to be open minded.

"we're going to have barbarians except they use intelligence! absolutely nothing else in the game will change and it will play exactly the same as if they used strength!"
that's not innovative

They still use Might for damage.

Int lets them hit more enemies with each swing. Also their self-buffs last longer... as do the debuffs they inflict on enemies.

 

[Haplo]

But classes in RPGs are meant to be archetypes.

And why, exactly? People are whining about lack of innovation in cRPGs

Because turning barbarians into wheezy nerds is not innovation, it's the same boring, embarrassing "subverting of expectation" schtick that millennial Dunning-Kruger sufferers like Rian Johnson consider high art.

Its not. The reason was for attributes to have universal use/application, rather then following the literal meaning of their names.
Also to make (nearly) all the various attributes useful for (most) classes.

Sure, I'll admit, they dropped the ball with this, when designing attribute checks (which follow the "traditional" formula).
Also Resolve is the dumpstat for many builds (but is over-represented in attribute checks).
The devs corrected these 2 mistakes in Deadfire.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

But classes in RPGs are meant to be archetypes.

And why, exactly?

People are whining about lack of innovation in cRPGs and same tropes being rehashed over and over again, but when the Soyer comes up with something new and different, which can lead to some interesting char builds, same people are instantly triggered. Seems like the irrational hate for Balance Man is clouding some people's ability to be open minded.

"we're going to have barbarians except they use intelligence! absolutely nothing else in the game will change and it will play exactly the same as if they used strength!"
that's not innovative

They still use Might for damage.

Int lets them hit more enemies with each swing. Also their self-buffs last longer... as do the debuffs they inflict on enemies.

"booksmarts makes me hit more enemies with my axe"
if you think this is good design you might be retarded

 

[Butter]

What's the point of having attributes if every class is expected to conform to a particular archetype?

because classes are archetypes?

OK, so what used to happen is you'd roll for attributes and then determine what classes you were allowed to play. That hasn't been a thing in a while. Now people choose their class and then spend attribute points. But what's the point of step 2 if there's only one correct way to spend the points? Why even have attributes in such a paradigm?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

What's the point of having attributes if every class is expected to conform to a particular archetype?

because classes are archetypes?

OK, so what used to happen is you'd roll for attributes and then determine what classes you were allowed to play. That hasn't been a thing in a while. Now people choose their class and then spend attribute points. But what's the point of step 2 if there's only one correct way to spend the points? Why even have attributes in such a paradigm?

shockingly, not every attribute is useful for every class
trying to make them useful for every class ends up with mages punching people in dialogues

 

[Desiderius]

Congratulations, you’ve reified the dumbed-down shit that free-to-play MMO suits tried to replace traditional cRPGs with, destroying their own genre.

What are you even trying to say here? That you'd rather run a group of 6 paladins than a diverse group that can cover all the bases

I’m saying that all of you newphags who grew up being spoonfed tank, spank, and heal should use that thing between your ears for once in your miserable lives and ask yourselves why Wizards have combat or shapeshifting or control spells in the first place if they’re just DPS.

Maybe consider that we’re in fact living in an age of high INT Barbs all the better to smash calcified low INT institutions that are no longer serving their intended function. If you’d read a fucking book in your lives examples would easily be near at hand.

 

[Fishy]

"we're going to have barbarians except they use intelligence! absolutely nothing else in the game will change and it will play exactly the same as if they used strength!"
that's not innovative

Sure it's not a game-changing innovation, but still, it's a novelty in cRPGs and one has to acknowledge this.

Also, depending on investment in high INT or high STR, you play and gear up your barbarian differently - saying that it doesn't make any difference is huge simplification.

That's not innovative, it's subversive. The game still treats high-INT as book smarts and high-Might as a bruiser.

Want to play a wizard that does a lot of damage? Hope you enjoy your dialogue looking like this:

Different setting obviously, but that's pretty much how my Troll Decker used to express himself.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Congratulations, you’ve reified the dumbed-down shit that free-to-play MMO suits tried to replace traditional cRPGs with, destroying their own genre.

What are you even trying to say here? That you'd rather run a group of 6 paladins than a diverse group that can cover all the bases

I’m saying that all of you newphags who grew up being spoonfed tank, spank, and heal should use that thing between your ears for once in your miserable lives and ask yourselves why Wizards have combat or shapeshifting or control spells in the first place if they’re just DPS.

Maybe consider that we’re in fact living in an age of high INT Barbs all the better to smash calcified low INT institutions that are no longer serving their intended function. If you’d read a fucking book in your lives examples would easily be near at hand.

do you even know what the word archetype means?

 

[Desiderius]

What's the point of having attributes if every class is expected to conform to a particular archetype?

because classes are archetypes?

OK, so what used to happen is you'd roll for attributes and then determine what classes you were allowed to play. That hasn't been a thing in a while. Now people choose their class and then spend attribute points. But what's the point of step 2 if there's only one correct way to spend the points? Why even have attributes in such a paradigm?

No what used to happen was that you get killed half the time before you made level two so it was fun for a lark to RP a 12 INT Mage and the best stories were about how you managed to take one all the way to level four.

Had a fun reprise with 12 WIS Amiri Druid in P:K.

 

[cvv]

Maybe consider that we’re in fact living in an age of high INT Barbs all the better to smash calcified low INT institutions that are no longer serving their intended function. If you’d read a fucking book in your lives examples would easily be near at hand.

 

[Desiderius]

But classes in RPGs are meant to be archetypes.

And why, exactly?

People are whining about lack of innovation in cRPGs and same tropes being rehashed over and over again, but when the Soyer comes up with something new and different, which can lead to some interesting char builds, same people are instantly triggered. Seems like the irrational hate for Balance Man is clouding some people's ability to be open minded.

"we're going to have barbarians except they use intelligence! absolutely nothing else in the game will change and it will play exactly the same as if they used strength!"
that's not innovative

They still use Might for damage.

Int lets them hit more enemies with each swing. Also their self-buffs last longer... as do the debuffs they inflict on enemies.

"booksmarts makes me hit more enemies with my axe"
if you think this is good design you might be retarded

Who said anything about book*? When you’re stealing bases every argument maybe time to question some priors.

* - I did in the context of commenters wasting what INT they have on lazy thinking and ignorance.

 

[Butter]

shockingly, not every attribute is useful for every class
trying to make them useful for every class ends up with mages punching people in dialogues

No what used to happen was that you get killed half the time before you made level two so it was fun for a lark to RP a 12 INT Mage and the best stories were about how you managed to take one all the way to level four.

Can a fun reprise with 12 WIS Amiri Druid in P:K.

I demand that you interact with my argument. If playing a Fighter means you have to go 18/18/18/3/3/3, then there's no reason to even allow Fighters to spend attribute points. Just skip that step and give them 18/18/18/3/3/3. Implicit in the concept of spending attribute points is the idea that there are multiple viable ways to spend them.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

shockingly, not every attribute is useful for every class
trying to make them useful for every class ends up with mages punching people in dialogues

No what used to happen was that you get killed half the time before you made level two so it was fun for a lark to RP a 12 INT Mage and the best stories were about how you managed to take one all the way to level four.

Can a fun reprise with 12 WIS Amiri Druid in P:K.

I demand that you interact with my argument. If playing a Fighter means you have to go 18/18/18/3/3/3, then there's no reason to even allow Fighters to spend attribute points. Just skip that step and give them 18/18/18/3/3/3. Implicit in the concept of spending attribute points is the idea that there are multiple viable ways to spend them.

I think class-based systems are garbage so you're arguing with the wrong person

 

[Desiderius]

Maybe consider that we’re in fact living in an age of high INT Barbs all the better to smash calcified low INT institutions that are no longer serving their intended function. If you’d read a fucking book in your lives examples would easily be near at hand.

Yes, your very embarrassment at any substantive conversation might as well be a tattoo telling everyone how deeply you’re owned.

 

[Desiderius]

Congratulations, you’ve reified the dumbed-down shit that free-to-play MMO suits tried to replace traditional cRPGs with, destroying their own genre.

What are you even trying to say here? That you'd rather run a group of 6 paladins than a diverse group that can cover all the bases

I’m saying that all of you newphags who grew up being spoonfed tank, spank, and heal should use that thing between your ears for once in your miserable lives and ask yourselves why Wizards have combat or shapeshifting or control spells in the first place if they’re just DPS.

Maybe consider that we’re in fact living in an age of high INT Barbs all the better to smash calcified low INT institutions that are no longer serving their intended function. If you’d read a fucking book in your lives examples would easily be near at hand.

do you even know what the word archetype means?

This is a textbook Wizard:

 

[Lacrymas]

I don't have SSD myself

Get one asap. It's the best thing to do if you want to speed up your computer. They aren't expensive either.

While I agree that early game is the the best part, I don't understand why lots of people are saying that Act 2 and reaching Defiance Bay is beginning of the downfall.

The city itself, along with the quests there, is designed pretty well, plus the newly opened wilderness areas are also ok.
The downfall starts in Act 3, where it's obvious and in your face that devs were rushing to finish the game - best example are the quests in Twin Elms, where in one you kill dwarves in red dungeon, and in other you kill elves in blue dungeon - epitome of laziness.

Act 3 is too short for it to drag the entire game down with it. Defiance Bay is the culprit because the pacing hits a brick wall. The factions are severely undercooked and the regions around DB are extremely bland. I dread the village with Skaen's cult.

 

[Desiderius]

Spoiler

I will not stop until you use those brains and hearts and dicks God gave you for their intended purpose. The people who paid to have you unlettered and cooled and queered were and are not doing so out of the kindness of their hearts.

If you can’t play you can’t truly live.

Classes represent archetypes, each of which are meant to offer various and complimentary angles of attack depending on the exigencies of the particular challenge faced by the party.

Tank, Spank, and Heal are mockeries of those archetypes designed by beancounters seeking to turn cRPGs into Farmvilles the better to line their pockets and dull your senses.

 

[NJClaw]

"we're going to have barbarians except they use intelligence! absolutely nothing else in the game will change and it will play exactly the same as if they used strength!"
that's not innovative

Sure it's not a game-changing innovation, but still, it's a novelty in cRPGs and one has to acknowledge this.

Also, depending on investment in high INT or high STR, you play and gear up your barbarian differently - saying that it doesn't make any difference is huge simplification.

That's not innovative, it's subversive. The game still treats high-INT as book smarts and high-Might as a bruiser.

Want to play a wizard that does a lot of damage? Hope you enjoy your dialogue looking like this:

Maybe you lift him using a very complex levers system.

 

[Desiderius]

Maybe you lift him using a very complex levers system.

The ability to simplify is the mark of true intellect.

If you can't imagine a g-loaded Barbarian the problem is with your imagination not the design of the game.

 

[Haplo]

I don't have SSD myself

Get one asap. It's the best thing to do if you want to speed up your computer. They aren't expensive either.

While I agree that early game is the the best part, I don't understand why lots of people are saying that Act 2 and reaching Defiance Bay is beginning of the downfall.

The city itself, along with the quests there, is designed pretty well, plus the newly opened wilderness areas are also ok.
The downfall starts in Act 3, where it's obvious and in your face that devs were rushing to finish the game - best example are the quests in Twin Elms, where in one you kill dwarves in red dungeon, and in other you kill elves in blue dungeon - epitome of laziness.

Act 3 is too short for it to drag the entire game down with it. Defiance Bay is the culprit because the pacing hits a brick wall. The factions are severely undercooked and the regions around DB are extremely bland. I dread the village with Skaen's cult.

I rather liked that village. Although the C&C was rather... lacking there.
Plus you have a dragon lair near DB! That was quite exciting.