Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Delterius]

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

its a paladin

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Thanks for the spoiler you fucking faggots

You should thank them twice if it saves you from playing the game, you'd never know how grateful you really are...

Saves you the trouble from playing the last third where the entire game just falls apart, anyways.
The argument just highlights how the worst part of the game managed to make itself even worse right before the end with this nonsense.

 

[NJClaw]

I never undrstood the big deal that Pillars' writers are trying to make of "omg, gods aren't real gods, they are these very powerful engwithans who through [magical gibberrish explanation] secured immortality for their consciousness".

Isn't it obvious that the average person in the world wouldn't make a distinction between "a god" and whatever "non-god" these engwithans have become, and if anything, this revelation confirms that there exist conscious forces watching and controlling the world.

They became gods the same way like 70% of the forgotten realms pantheon did, yet nobody ever calls them fake gods.

To be fair, nobody in-game makes a strong point for them not being gods. You can point out through multiple dialogue choices that, at the end of the day, they are gods now (even your companions' faith can end up strengthened after the revelation, if you consider Eder's and Hiravias' dialogues and ending slides). Even Iovara's personal crusade isn't against them calling themselves gods, it's against the inquisition's lie about their origins. When you ask her about her motivations and objective, she avoids giving you a clear answer and only brings up wanting people to decide for themselves if those gods are worth following. And, honestly, after their actions over the course of two games, can you blame her? They basically act like 3-year-old children on coke.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

They basically act like 3-year-old children on coke.

So, they act like gods?

 

[AwesomeButton]

You can point out through multiple dialogue choices that, at the end of the day, they are gods now (even your companions' faith can end up strengthened after the revelation, if you consider Eder's and Hiravias' dialogues and ending slides).

Yep, I agree, what I'm saying is it's something trumped up as a complete game-changer, will reverse everything you knew about the world, and when you find out what it is, it doesn't amount to much.

It's like typical Sawyer quest design, but unintentionally so.

 

[NJClaw]

They basically act like 3-year-old children on coke.

So, they act like gods?

Nobody is saying they aren't gods, rustolino. But gods that have to commit multiple genocides every other generation maybe shouldn't be blindly trusted. All that Iovara says is that maybe you shouldn't be flayed and burned alive only because you refused to accept those gods into your life. And for some reason this is completely unacceptable to you.

 

[AwesomeButton]

More specifically, it sounds like "meh, it was our excuse to go on an RPG adventure session in this generic RPG setting".

 

[Parabalus]

You can point out through multiple dialogue choices that, at the end of the day, they are gods now (even your companions' faith can end up strengthened after the revelation, if you consider Eder's and Hiravias' dialogues and ending slides).

Yep, I agree, what I'm saying is it's something trumped up as a complete game-changer, will reverse everything you knew about the world, and when you find out what it is, it doesn't amount to much.

It's like typical Sawyer quest design, but unintentionally so.

Why do you think it's unintentional?

The big reveal being meaningless isn't something that happened on a whim.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

They basically act like 3-year-old children on coke.

So, they act like gods?

Nobody is saying they aren't gods, rustolino. But gods that have to commit multiple genocides every other generation maybe shouldn't be blindly trusted. All that Iovara says is that maybe you shouldn't be flayed and burned alive only because you refused to accept those gods into your life. And for some reason this is completely unacceptable to you.

There's a reason people don't question entities that are capable of killing them and damning their soul to an eternity of hell like Iovara.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

You can point out through multiple dialogue choices that, at the end of the day, they are gods now (even your companions' faith can end up strengthened after the revelation, if you consider Eder's and Hiravias' dialogues and ending slides).

Yep, I agree, what I'm saying is it's something trumped up as a complete game-changer, will reverse everything you knew about the world, and when you find out what it is, it doesn't amount to much.

It's like typical Sawyer quest design, but unintentionally so.

Why do you think it's unintentional?

The big reveal being meaningless isn't something that happened on a whim.

It was obviously written as a big atheist "AH HA! GOTCHA!" moment, saying it's anything else is wishful interpretation.
It was fuckin' dumb and lame when I thought the game couldn't get dumber and lamer.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Why do you think it's unintentional?

The big reveal being meaningless isn't something that happened on a whim.

Maybe you're right and they knew how it would feel as opposed to reading too much into their own worldbuilding. At first sight the idea that this is the big reveal reads like those genius thoughts people get when they wake up at 3 in the morning, and on the next day it seems ridiculous you'd even think that.

But if you're right and it's intentional, and not a self-delusion about a good plot twist, this makes it worse, imo.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Thanks for the spoiler you fucking faggots

I figured out that the gods are just normal people with strong souls the second the machine sequence showed up.

Blatantly obvious what the plot is: bad guy wants to be a god.

 

[Grunker]

I never undrstood the big deal that Pillars' writers are trying to make of "omg, gods aren't real gods, they are these very powerful engwithans who through [magical gibberrish explanation] secured immortality for their consciousness".

Isn't it obvious that the average person in the world wouldn't make a distinction between "a god" and whatever "non-god" these engwithans have become, and if anything, this revelation confirms that there exist conscious forces watching and controlling the world.

Yes, it's a non-twist as Deadfire ironically shows: it has literally no impact on the Gods' interactions with The Watcher that he knows they're just Engwithan constructs. They still embody their pantheons and enact their divine will just the same. It's also questioned whether even spreading the knowledge that the gods "aren't real" would have any impact even if people believed the watcher. The wordly questions in the PoE-games are somewhat interesting, and more proficiently explored in the second game. The spiritual ones are mostly banal fantasy nonsense below the surface.

But then again, it all makes more sense now that I know that PoE's core conceit is a 1:1 copy-paste from a generic fantasy setting (WoT).

 

[Parabalus]

You can point out through multiple dialogue choices that, at the end of the day, they are gods now (even your companions' faith can end up strengthened after the revelation, if you consider Eder's and Hiravias' dialogues and ending slides).

Yep, I agree, what I'm saying is it's something trumped up as a complete game-changer, will reverse everything you knew about the world, and when you find out what it is, it doesn't amount to much.

It's like typical Sawyer quest design, but unintentionally so.

Why do you think it's unintentional?

The big reveal being meaningless isn't something that happened on a whim.

It was obviously written as a big atheist "AH HA! GOTCHA!" moment, saying it's anything else is wishful interpretation.
It was fuckin' dumb and lame when I thought the game couldn't get dumber and lamer.

Does it even dunk on theists?

The reasons why they even went along the path of god creation, and the subsequent results, don't paint a good picture of a world without God.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It's also questioned whether even spreading the knowledge that the gods "aren't real" would have any impact.

It would cause unrest, groups would form to oppose the gods and destroy their temples. Gods would show up in person raining down hellfire, putting them back in their place and reminding them that they are gods.

If your counterpoint is the Saint's war, it's worth remembering that the Saint's War was really a proxy feud between gods and mortals were being used as pawns.

 

[Grunker]

You can point out through multiple dialogue choices that, at the end of the day, they are gods now (even your companions' faith can end up strengthened after the revelation, if you consider Eder's and Hiravias' dialogues and ending slides).

Yep, I agree, what I'm saying is it's something trumped up as a complete game-changer, will reverse everything you knew about the world, and when you find out what it is, it doesn't amount to much.

It's like typical Sawyer quest design, but unintentionally so.

Why do you think it's unintentional?

The big reveal being meaningless isn't something that happened on a whim.

It was obviously written as a big atheist "AH HA! GOTCHA!" moment, saying it's anything else is wishful interpretation.
It was fuckin' dumb and lame when I thought the game couldn't get dumber and lamer.

Not really. It's implied multiple times that Eora was better off when actual divinity might have existed, just as you're given multiple chances to ackknowledge that even fake divinity is better than no gods at all. Even if the question is banal, the answer is left almost entirely up to the player. So that part I don't think they got wrong. It's just that question isn't framed very proficiently

 

[TedNugent]

Thanks for the spoiler you fucking faggots

don't expect people to spoiler a discussion about a 7 year old game

Sigh, just said I was playing through the game for the first time. Doing WM2 right now, was gonna swing back through the end of Act 3.

Oh well. Whoops.

 

[AwesomeButton]

The wordly questions in the PoE-games are somewhat interesting, and more proficiently explored in the second game. The spiritual ones are mostly banal fantasy nonsense below the surface.

Yes, and this shows even in PoE's expansion and updated stronghold quest. Goes to show once again that in order to do an interesting plot in fiction it's enough to know how to adapt things from history - whether your setting is "fantasy" or not. It's clear that this is where Josh's strength is.

But when he lays the groundwork, then his ~narrative designers~ come and usually shit the bed with purple prose with woke checkmarks.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

You can point out through multiple dialogue choices that, at the end of the day, they are gods now (even your companions' faith can end up strengthened after the revelation, if you consider Eder's and Hiravias' dialogues and ending slides).

Yep, I agree, what I'm saying is it's something trumped up as a complete game-changer, will reverse everything you knew about the world, and when you find out what it is, it doesn't amount to much.

It's like typical Sawyer quest design, but unintentionally so.

Why do you think it's unintentional?

The big reveal being meaningless isn't something that happened on a whim.

It was obviously written as a big atheist "AH HA! GOTCHA!" moment, saying it's anything else is wishful interpretation.
It was fuckin' dumb and lame when I thought the game couldn't get dumber and lamer.

Not really. It's implied multiple times that Eora was better off when there was actual divinity might have existed, just as you're given multiple chances to ackknowledge that even fake divinity is better than no gods at all.

I have a feeling you guys have a very incorrect memory of Iovara's dialogue. Even all your companions react with a shock of "OMG!!! THE GODS AREN'T REAL!!!!" then Iovara like a GIRLBOSS!!!! totally BTFOS durance who (was entirely correct) dares to question the queen

holy shit what a terrible end to a terrible game

 

[deem]

Side note, love this documentary and the host.

How's this for -50% reaction time.

 

[Grunker]

The wordly questions in the PoE-games are somewhat interesting, and more proficiently explored in the second game. The spiritual ones are mostly banal fantasy nonsense below the surface.

Yes, and this shows even in PoE's expansion and update stronghold quest. Goes to show once again that in order to do an interesting plot in fiction it's enough to know how to adapt things from history - whether your setting is "fantasy" or not. It's clear that this is where Josh's strength is.

But when he lays the groundwork, then his ~narrative designers~ come and usually shit the bed with purple prose with woke checkmarks.

Wholeheartedly agree, but can Sawyer really be excused? Like I note in my review, the primary Gilded Vale/Hollowborn/Lord Raedric-storyline clearly shows that PoE's writers are more than capable of show-don't-telling a proficient story.

So was it really the writers insisting on cramming deep lore wikipedia articles into 90% of PoE's NPCs, or was it Sawyer's insistence that they had to communicate all these details of the lore? Maybe Roguey knows.

 

[deem]

don't expect people to spoiler a discussion about a 7 year old game

A game can be 100 years old, it does not matter if you have not played it.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Wholeheartedly agree, but can Sawyer really be excused? Like I note in my review, the primary Gilded Vale/Hollowborn/Lord Raedric-storyline clearly shows that PoE's writers are more than capable of show-don't-telling a proficient story.

So was it really the writers insisting on cramming deep lore wikipedia articles into 90% of PoE's NPCs, or was it Sawyer's insistence that they had to communicate all these details of the lore? Maybe Roguey knows.

Without being familiar with Obsidian's development process from the inside, and just based on having seen a number of their games, it's a consequence of turning making RPGs from a fun activity for a small team (a la Fallout) into "work".

 

[AwesomeButton]

A game can be 100 years old, it does not matter if you have not played it.

On this forum, and this game, and in this thread, I think it's reasonable to expect that 7 years later everyone has played it already.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

don't expect people to spoiler a discussion about a 7 year old game

A game can be 100 years old, it does not matter if you have not played it.

don't enter a thread specifically for people to discuss it and expect them to not discuss it