Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[FreeKaner]

DOS2 went all in on darker fantasy over their previous fairytale fantasy and was greatly rewarded for it in terms of sales.
I'm really not sure how many other games we can compare it to, but DOS2 is an easy one because of its similar release frame. The only thing it lacks is "direct sequel", but it's still titled as a direct sequel.

Yes, I strongly think a pillows game with a setting closer to act 1 of pillows(the grimderpness, the dread, hopelessness, etc.,) would have sold much better than deadfiya.

I would indeed compare it to DOS2, I think DOS2 is rewarded for not being a direct sequel greatly. It is not a direct sequel to story, you don't feel like you needed to play the first game to understand a convoluted story. Also "more light-hearted" POE2 and "grim-dark" DOS2 are both about at same level of grimderpiness overall. If anything POE2 is still darker. It's just in relative terms POE2 got more light-hearted and DOS2 got darker but when you consider the starting points POE2 is still darker than DOS2.

I definitely enjoyed the absolute despair and melancholy POE1 embodied, in fact I actually wrote something about why playing POE1 plays better in regards to this in past:

You know I was thinking, despite being in love with age of exploration, sail ships in gunpowder era, history of colonialism and all else this game is supposed to be about, why I couldn't get into dumpsterfire at all, while I played PoE1 twice.

It's because both games feel lifeless and sterile due to a lack of ability to invoke emotion and the whole thing feeling like a drudge go through especially in text, however in PoE1 this accidentally adds to the atmosphere of the game because the game becomes a lot more melancholic and depressive which actually supports whatever narrative there is. It feels sufficiently entertaining because it gives off an aura of wading through despair.

In dumpsterfire, the game is not supposed to feel like this. It's supposed to be high in energy and conflict, yet it still feels lifeless and sterile. If it wasn't the fact the exploration actually feels like a legitimate exploration then it would be downright unplayable.

However my opinion of deadfire improved more over time but I also think that it is greatly hold back by trying to be an "epic" game still and moreover being a direct sequel. Instead of fully embracing the "pirate adventure" (which in no way needs to be cheerful). In fact it's bizarre that the whole swashbuckling adventure came to be associated with cheeriness when it is more easy for that to be grim.

 

[Ulfhednar]

But that can't be used to defend the systems own merits, which are non-existent.

But it does have SOME merits, which I'll admit are not necessarily easy to describe straightforwardly. I will say that I would NEVER want to play Kingmaker with the KM turned off. And that's because it creates the basic gameplay loop for the entire game, and makes it a unique experience compared to any other cRPG I have played. I was impressed at how much difference there was even between a LG and NG playthrough, the biggest of which is that Kesten was/wasn't present as an advisor. Valerie and Octavia make for very different diplomats, etc. Is it larping... yeah, but it's a system that is forcing me to larp more than I was expecting to do in a video game.

Could it have been done better ... yeah. Is there too much of it ... yeah. But I think it's a mistake in Kingmaker's case to count the KM as a wholly separate piece from the adventuring.

It's chicken with paprika, and I'm fine if you want to say that paprika is shit.
Would chicken with cayenne be better. Maybe... but I like eating this flavored chicken.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I would indeed compare it to DOS2, I think DOS2 is rewarded for not being a direct sequel greatly. It is not a direct sequel to story, you don't feel like you needed to play the first game to understand a convoluted story. Also "more light-hearted" POE2 and "grim-dark" DOS2 are both about at same level of grimderpiness overall. If anything POE2 is still darker. It's just in relative terms POE2 got more light-hearted and DOS2 got darker but when you consider the starting points POE2 is still darker than DOS2.

You're comparing actual in-game content rather than what is being advertised though. People taking a first look would consider them to both be sequels, and begin judging based on art, screenshots, and to a lesser extent - videos.
Deadfiya's screenshots on the steam store are pretty terrible tbh. It's a beautiful game and they managed to take mostly terrible ones that don't really showcase anything.

 

[Ninjerk]

But that can't be used to defend the systems own merits, which are non-existent.

But it does have SOME merits, which I'll admit are not necessarily easy to describe straightforwardly. I will say that I would NEVER want to play Kingmaker with the KM turned off. And that's because it creates the basic gameplay loop for the entire game, and makes it a unique experience compared to any other cRPG I have played. I was impressed at how much difference there was even between a LG and NG playthrough, the biggest of which is that Kesten was/wasn't present as an advisor. Valerie and Octavia make for very different diplomats, etc. Is it larping... yeah, but it's a system that is forcing me to larp more than I was expecting to do in a video game.

Could it have been done better ... yeah. Is there too much of it ... yeah. But I think it's a mistake in Kingmaker's case to count the KM as a wholly separate piece from the adventuring.

It's chicken with paprika, and I'm fine if you want to say that paprika is shit.
Would chicken with cayenne be better. Maybe... but I like eating this flavored chicken.

Hungarian detected.

 

[pomenitul]

I definitely enjoyed the absolute despair and melancholy POE1 embodied

In some ways, this is the main reason I'm a fan. I've written about it before, repeatedly, but since we're all in the habit of quoting ourselves now, I'm going to copy/paste my most recent musings on PoE's wistfulness:

Solaris, one of the greatest science-fiction films of all time, was made by a director who had little to no respect for the genre's conventions. Likewise, Obsidian's signature move has always been to subvert (usually a preexisting IP). With PoE, however, the aim was considerably more perverse and all the more fascinating for it: to subvert nostalgia for the IE games themselves, i.e. the very emotion on which their Kickstarter/PR campaign was predicated. Hence the underlying leitmotiv, which deals with disillusion, disenchantment and disappointment. The first instalment, especially, is a game about losing faith in the very trappings of fantasy, about no longer being able to suspend disbelief. While one may (rightly) quibble with the execution, this is a far more interesting take on the genre than it is given credit for. As an aging gamer who has never subsequently recaptured the feeling of playing the IE games for the first time in my mid-teens, PoE's negative capability (per John Keats) to turn the lived experience of blasé devs grappling with an existential and professional midlife crisis into a yarn about how we cope with the brittleness of our beliefs is unusually honest and the kind of mise en abyme that more eloquently speaks to my adult sensibilities than PF:K's straight-up pastiche (which was fine for what it was, by the way).

 

[Delterius]

How to sell pirate game? Make it clear it's a pirate game. Which is why I didn't buy it.

am i insane going insane pls respond

 

[Lacrymas]

PoE2's commercial failures.

These include:
1. Direct sequel
2. Game's main story managing to be both intrusive and not even there
3. Generally convoluted lore and dialogue
4. Drag of an opening sequence with three intros and multiple info dumps because devs REALLY want you to not miss out on the story (this one in particular should be taught as what not to do for people to care about your setting).

Number 1 reason - PoE1 failed to attract an audience due to its many, many failings we are intimately familiar with by now.

I definitely enjoyed the absolute despair and melancholy POE1 embodied

In some ways, this is the main reason I'm a fan. I've written about it before, repeatedly, but since we're all in the habit of quoting ourselves now, I'm going to copy/paste my most recent musings on PoE's wistfulness:

Solaris, one of the greatest science-fiction films of all time, was made by a director who had little to no respect for the genre's conventions. Likewise, Obsidian's signature move has always been to subvert (usually a preexisting IP). With PoE, however, the aim was considerably more perverse and all the more fascinating for it: to subvert nostalgia for the IE games themselves, i.e. the very emotion on which their Kickstarter/PR campaign was predicated. Hence the underlying leitmotiv, which deals with disillusion, disenchantment and disappointment. The first instalment, especially, is a game about losing faith in the very trappings of fantasy, about no longer being able to suspend disbelief. While one may (rightly) quibble with the execution, this is a far more interesting take on the genre than it is given credit for. As an aging gamer who has never subsequently recaptured the feeling of playing the IE games for the first time in my mid-teens, PoE's negative capability (per John Keats) to turn the lived experience of blasé devs grappling with an existential and professional midlife crisis into a yarn about how we cope with the brittleness of our beliefs is unusually honest and the kind of mise en abyme that more eloquently speaks to my adult sensibilities than PF:K's straight-up pastiche (which was fine for what it was, by the way).

Classic case of pareidolia with a sprinkling of Stockholm Syndrome (I know it's not a real thing and it's made up to cover for the police, shut up).

RE: Player strongholds - meh. The only ok-ish one ever is in NWN2. It's not too obtrusive or finicky, it gives you options what to build in it and then gives you unique merchants and quests for it. You find stuff for it by exploring and you can invite people you meet. PoE1's is fine-ish in its last iteration, but it feels disconnected from the rest of the game.

 

[Nano]

My biggest problem with Kingmaker's kingdom management was always the lack of available advisors. You don't feel much like an evil overlord when you're forced to give some of your advisor positions to neutral or even good characters.

 

[Ninjerk]

PoE being compared to Solyaris. I've seen it all.

 

[Orud]

Player Strongholds are simply a gameplay and/or story hook with no intrinsic definition. Simply including it in a game is on itself meaningless, and any negative or positive additions they provide are only determined by how they're filled in.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Number 1 reason - PoE1 failed to attract an audience due to its many, many failings we are intimately familiar with by now.

Pretty much, PoE1 may have sold well, but it didn't create a following and a real audience, aside from the core fanbase that was already there.

 

[Lacrymas]

I'm curious about the financial success of Wrath of the Righteous. I wonder what the general audience finds attractive or not in these RPGs "in the old style". It could very easily be theorized why PoE1 failed to create fans of this franchise, but it's always going to be a guesstimation at best. Can anyone even here say they are fans of PoE? Like pomenitul said, this thread keeps delivering after almost 7 years, but I personally find it more intellectually engaging and satisfying to talk about its admittedly interesting failings than the game as-is.

 

[Ninjerk]

I'm curious about the financial success of Wrath of the Righteous. I wonder what the general audience finds attractive or not in these RPGs "in the old style". It could very easily be theorized why PoE1 failed to create fans of this franchise, but it's always going to be a guesstimation at best. Can anyone even here say they are fans of PoE? Like pomenitul said, this thread keeps delivering after almost 7 years, but I personally find it more intellectually engaging and satisfying to talk about its admittedly interesting failings than the game as-is.

The 3 most rabid fans I can think of are Infinitron (still here), Shevek (disappeared), and PrimeJunta (self-ejected for reasons of insanity). I've gotten the impression that Grunker is a fan, but with some digging it seems that maybe that's only after years of patches and WM.

 

[Lacrymas]

WM1 is as solid as they come, one of the best pieces of cRPG content out there imo, but it's not enough to cover for the base game, which fails on so many different levels it's mind-boggling.

 

[dacencora]

I would say I'm a fan and I bought Deadfire because I liked Pillars. However, I hated that it was a direct sequel so I never finished it. I also liked the Divine Casters in PoE1 and disliked what they became in Deadfire.

I did, however, only play PoE in like 2019 after all the patches and both WM 1+2 were released.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

There's nothing quite like Pillars 1&2 on the market it in terms of presentation, budget and overall high level of bling and production values, so despite all the failings I can't help but replay it every 2 years or so.

 

[Lacrymas]

The Pathfinders and D:OSes (and BG3 now) had the budget to create similar things, they just went with the worst possible style as an intentional design decision.

 

[Delterius]

BG3 looks rather comfy and not at all like D:OS in terms of art style though.

 

[Grunker]

BG3 is prettier than PF and DOS for sure, but it’s still miles from PoE and the IE games

 

[Lacrymas]

BG3 looks rather comfy and not at all like D:OS in terms of art style though.

I'd say it's still goofy. These games don't need to be 3D.

 

[deem]

In some ways, this is the main reason I'm a fan. I've written about it before, repeatedly, but since we're all in the habit of quoting ourselves now, I'm going to copy/paste my most recent musings on PoE's wistfulness:

I thought that New Vegas was supposed to be the RPG that dealt with pathological nostalgia (Boomers, fascists appropriating ancient iconography etc.)

 

[FreeKaner]

BG3 looks rather comfy and not at all like D:OS in terms of art style though.

I'd say it's still goofy. These games don't need to be 3D.

Making 2d games is more expensive nowadays. Still no excuse though there are plenty of 3d games, even from years ago, with very pleasing artsyle.

 

[Delterius]

BG3 looks rather comfy and not at all like D:OS in terms of art style though.

I'd say it's still goofy. These games don't need to be 3D.

are you trolling me rn

By contrast, Neverwinter Nights looks absolutely hideous.

NWN is endlessly charming and unique in terms of graphics. I'd take it over 99.9% of contemporary 3D games.

 

[pomenitul]

Classic case of pareidolia with a sprinkling of Stockholm Syndrome (I know it's not a real thing and it's made up to cover for the police, shut up).

Fair, but you should hear yourself talking about NWN1 graphics.

 

[pomenitul]

PoE being compared to Solyaris. I've seen it all.

I wasn't comparing them in terms of quality, which would be preposterous. My argument was that working within the confines of a genre you disdain can produce interesting results.