Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Lacrymas]

BG3 looks rather comfy and not at all like D:OS in terms of art style though.

I'd say it's still goofy. These games don't need to be 3D.

are you trolling me rn

By contrast, Neverwinter Nights looks absolutely hideous.

NWN is endlessly charming and unique in terms of graphics. I'd take it over 99.9% of contemporary 3D games.

NWN1 is the only exception.

 

[Lyric Suite]

PoE being compared to Solyaris. I've seen it all.

The funny part about that is that the comparison is flawed.

Yes, Tarkosky hated science fiction but Solaris was not a deconstruction but a critique. Tarkovsky was making an actual argument against science fiction he wasn't shitting on it out of a need to express some kind of nihilism.

 

[Nano]

NWN was Lacrymas's first RPG, guys. Literally just nostalgia talking.

 

[Ninjerk]

PoE being compared to Solyaris. I've seen it all.

I wasn't comparing them in terms of quality, which would be preposterous. My argument was that working within the confines of a genre you disdain can produce interesting results.

The first part I acknowledge, and the argument I agree with. What I don't agree with is that the development team even placed "the brittleness of belief" within a setting that the question could be meaningfully engaged with. In a setting where a thought or an incantation can set one's weapon on fire, launch a kinetic projectile, or transmorph one into a nightmarish stagman, there's nothing brittle to be questioned.

Tarkovskiy placed his questions in the proper context whereas Obsidian did not. I simply don't see the basis for comparison. Maybe I'm missing something in the context of the original self-quotation.

 

[pomenitul]

In a setting where a thought or an incantation can set one's weapon on fire, launch a kinetic projectile, or transmorph one into a nightmarish stagman, there's nothing brittle to be questioned.

This depends on your take on the limits of the possible, which others were discussing earlier with reference to the question of God's omnipotence (is He only able to achieve the sum total of all that is theoretically possible or does that include the impossible as well, thus exceeding the sum total, as it were?). A fantasy setting is bound by a set of more or less elastic rules that ensure a minimal degree of self-consistency, and PoE is no exception. As long as the setting subscribes to these self-promulgated rules (to the best of its ability, and not without transgressing them every now and then), not everything is consistently possible within its confines. 'Absolutely anything can happen, at the drop of a hat' is closer to surrealism than to fantasy, which abides by a far stricter set of laws, no matter how fanciful they might seem from the vantage point of what we call 'reality'. So it is perfectly coherent for the characters that dwell in this fantasy universe to become disillusioned with their beliefs (Edér relative to his brother, Durance relative to Magran, Sagani relative to Persoq, etc.) so long as these beliefs seem(ed) consistently real to them.

Now if your argument is that this intradiegetic disillusion rings existentially hollow for the player – for us living, breathing, thinking human beings – when set against that of e.g. Kris Kelvin, you are absolutely correct. It would be risible to pretend that PoE conveys so much as a fraction of the depth Solaris does. But my initial contention was different: it was that the disenchantment of the world is an intriguingly self-defeating theme for a fantasy CRPG, and that PoE therefore achieves something different from its peers, which is notable in its own right, regardless of how one feels about the end result. What's more (and this is mostly speculation on my part) such disenchantment is doubly striking in the context of a game that explicitly harks back to a (then-)bygone subgenre of CRPGs, one that seemed far more confident in its ability to marvel and amaze us, to have us believe in the unbelievable, be it only for a spell. There's something deflated about PoE's mood, as though it didn't buy into its own tricks, which partly explains why so many Codexers loathe it. Yet it just so happens that this tension is quite interesting to me, drawing me back. And while it's possible to experience similar feelings of stunted nostalgia while playing other Kickstarter-era CRPGs, PoE cops to its dispiritedness and turns it into its a vibe of its own (regardless of whether this was a conscious decision on Obsidian's part or not, and I suspect it wasn't), which I quite like.

Could it have been done better? Unquestionably – much better, even. But that it was done at all when set against the body of CRPGs that are currently available to us is no mean feat. In conclusion, everything is shit.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

In a setting where a thought or an incantation can set one's weapon on fire, launch a kinetic projectile, or transmorph one into a nightmarish stagman, there's nothing brittle to be questioned.

This depends on your take on the limits of the possible, which others were discussing earlier with reference to the question of God's omnipotence (is He only able to achieve the sum total of all that is theoretically possible or does that include the impossible as well, thus exceeding the sum total, as it were?). A fantasy setting is bound by a set of more or less elastic rules that ensure a minimal degree of self-consistency, and PoE is no exception. As long as the setting subscribes to these self-promulgated rules (to the best of its ability, and not without transgressing them every now and then), not everything is consistently possible within its confines. 'Absolutely anything can happen, at the drop of a hat' is closer to surrealism than to fantasy, which abides by a far stricter set of laws, no matter how fanciful they might seem from the vantage point of what we call 'reality'. So it is perfectly coherent for the characters that dwell in this fantasy universe to become disillusioned with their beliefs (Edér relative to his brother, Durance relative to Magran, Sagani relative to Persoq, etc.) so long as these beliefs seem(ed) consistently real to them.

Now if your argument is that this intradiegetic disillusion rings existentially hollow for the player – for us living, breathing, thinking human beings – when set against that of e.g. Kris Kelvin, you are absolutely correct. It would be risible to pretend that PoE conveys so much as a fraction of the depth Solaris does. But my initial contention was different: it was that the disenchantment of the world is an intriguingly self-defeating theme for a fantasy CRPG, and that PoE therefore achieves something different from its peers, which is notable in its own right, regardless of how one feels about the end result. What's more (and this is mostly speculation on my part) such disenchantment is doubly striking in the context of a game that explicitly harks back to a (then-)bygone subgenre of CRPGs, one that seemed far more confident in its ability to marvel and amaze us, to have us believe in the unbelievable, be it only for a spell. There's something deflated about PoE's mood, as though it didn't buy into its own tricks, which partly explains why so many Codexers loathe it. Yet it just so happens that this tension is quite interesting to me, drawing me back. And while it's possible to experience similar feelings of stunted nostalgia while playing other Kickstarter-era CRPGs, PoE cops to its dispiritedness and turns it into its a vibe of its own (regardless of whether this was a conscious decision on Obsidian's part or not, and I suspect it wasn't), which I quite like.

Could it have been done better? Unquestionably – much better, even. But that it was done at all when set against the body of CRPGs that are currently available to us is no mean feat. In conclusion, everything is shit.

No the game was just a load of hooey.

 

[Parabalus]

What is there to manage then? Two things:

1) Which stats you increase when (there is no difference here, it's just a stylistic choice and only in terms of order - the stats are all identical except for the fluff texts on their events).
2) Which buildings you build - but out of the umpteen buildings, none of them make any difference except 2 which are QoL-upgrades).

The stats aren't identical, they each govern different projects, buildings, artisans, events and regions. Diplomacy unlocks a tertiary stat, economy caps all income, arcane gives you teleportation etc. Because of these differences assigning advisors is not as simple as randomly clicking them, especially when you get hit with more events than advisors, and the events only take particular advisors.

When you get the kingdom you immediately have a ton of things to do, but you have neither the money nor the time to do them. You need to allocate limited resources efficiently to succeed.

But every time you buy BP, you are forfeiting items, because in KM there is a lot to spend money on - you need like 500kk for the Rushlight tournament. Every time you rest while adventuring, you hurt your kingdom development, as you aren't ranking up kingdom stats, as if someone took a sledgehammer to it.
Do I increase the main-stat of advisors for the KM advisor bonus, even if something else would be better for their build?

The system keeps you on edge the through the whole game, since every choice you do has severe consequences for the kingdom.

All the buildings and their synergies make a huge difference - without them you won't get masterpieces early enough to make a difference.

On the hardest difficulty when you start your events have a <50% success chance, it's extremely brutal from the beginning.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

There's nothing quite like Pillars 1&2 on the market it in terms of presentation,

You know purely in the looks department, Spellforce 3 is a hell of a contender despite being full 3d.

 

[Parabalus]

There's nothing quite like Pillars 1&2 on the market it in terms of presentation,

You know purely in the looks department, Spellforce 3 is a hell of a contender despite being full 3d.

Gameplay is also similar, in the sense that you spam the same abilities over and over in each new encounter.

 

[Lacrymas]

This depends on your take on the limits of the possible, which others were discussing earlier with reference to the question of God's omnipotence (is He only able to achieve the sum total of all that is theoretically possible or does that include the impossible as well, thus exceeding the sum total, as it were?). A fantasy setting is bound by a set of more or less elastic rules that ensure a minimal degree of self-consistency, and PoE is no exception. As long as the setting subscribes to these self-promulgated rules (to the best of its ability, and not without transgressing them every now and then), not everything is consistently possible within its confines. 'Absolutely anything can happen, at the drop of a hat' is closer to surrealism than to fantasy, which abides by a far stricter set of laws, no matter how fanciful they might seem from the vantage point of what we call 'reality'. So it is perfectly coherent for the characters that dwell in this fantasy universe to become disillusioned with their beliefs (Edér relative to his brother, Durance relative to Magran, Sagani relative to Persoq, etc.) so long as these beliefs seem(ed) consistently real to them.

Now if your argument is that this intradiegetic disillusion rings existentially hollow for the player – for us living, breathing, thinking human beings – when set against that of e.g. Kris Kelvin, you are absolutely correct. It would be risible to pretend that PoE conveys so much as a fraction of the depth Solaris does. But my initial contention was different: it was that the disenchantment of the world is an intriguingly self-defeating theme for a fantasy CRPG, and that PoE therefore achieves something different from its peers, which is notable in its own right, regardless of how one feels about the end result. What's more (and this is mostly speculation on my part) such disenchantment is doubly striking in the context of a game that explicitly harks back to a (then-)bygone subgenre of CRPGs, one that seemed far more confident in its ability to marvel and amaze us, to have us believe in the unbelievable, be it only for a spell. There's something deflated about PoE's mood, as though it didn't buy into its own tricks, which partly explains why so many Codexers loathe it. Yet it just so happens that this tension is quite interesting to me, drawing me back. And while it's possible to experience similar feelings of stunted nostalgia while playing other Kickstarter-era CRPGs, PoE cops to its dispiritedness and turns it into its a vibe of its own (regardless of whether this was a conscious decision on Obsidian's part or not, and I suspect it wasn't), which I quite like.

Could it have been done better? Unquestionably – much better, even. But that it was done at all when set against the body of CRPGs that are currently available to us is no mean feat. In conclusion, everything is shit.

So, basically what you are saying is that Absurdian are subconsciously telling us that making a good RPG is impossible and even trying is feeding into deflated disillusionment? Very convenient.

NWN was Lacrymas's first RPG, guys. Literally just nostalgia talking.

As far as I remember, it really is my first RPG. However, I still play it from time to time and still enjoy the graphics immensely.

You know purely in the looks department, Spellforce 3 is a hell of a contender despite being full 3d.

Gameplay is also similar, in the sense that you spam the same abilities over and over in each new encounter.

Cooldowns will do that to you. Interestingly enough, Warcraft 3's "dungeon missions" play differently than SF3's "RPG missions", I wouldn't say you spam the same abilities over and over in WC3.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

So, basically what you are saying is that Absurdian are subconsciously telling us that making a good RPG is impossible and even trying is feeding into deflated disillusionment? Very convenient.

Sounds like the sort of thing you want to know before the kickstarter.

 

[vortex]

Pillars 3 needs to be RTWP. How would they need to change and improve the RTWP gameplay so that turn based simps would play it in Pillars 3?

 

[Bigg Boss]

I am a fan of PoE. Flog me now faggots.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Pillars 3 needs to be RTWP. How would they need to change and improve the RTWP gameplay so that turn based simps would play it in Pillars 3?

Make it turn based. Label it as real time. Everyone wins.

 

[Lacrymas]

RTwP can't be improved, it's stillborn.

 

[Ninjerk]

Let the player control more characters. Perhaps the characters could be recruited at taverns, barracks, and the like. Of course someone would need to procure resources and hire builders to make such structures to attract more adventurers.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Then people would complain when each character does not have 50,000 lines of dialog.

 

[Parabalus]

Cooldowns will do that to you. Interestingly enough, Warcraft 3's "dungeon missions" play differently than SF3's "RPG missions", I wouldn't say you spam the same abilities over and over in WC3.

A lot fewer abilities, and larger cd/mana costs on them. The Rexxar campaign is pretty close to Spellforce 3, but even there the CDs are longer.

 

[Lacrymas]

A lot fewer abilities, and larger cd/mana costs on them. The Rexxar campaign is pretty close to Spellforce 3, but even there the CDs are longer.

The way combos work in SF3 is also an issue. You need to always start with the same debuff in order to buff the next ability that wants that debuff. This kind of synergy is awful in RPGs and, as it turns out, RTSes.

 

[AwesomeButton]

well I still remember when bioware used that logic to cut almost everything from dragon age 2. so i think this should be decided on a per case basis

The error is with the designer. Someone has to draw that line. Bioware drew it in a way which turned their games into non-RPG interactive movies. That was their call. But in both cases as we see, the designer wasn't operating with freedom in drawing the line.

 

[NJClaw]

NWN was Lacrymas's first RPG, guys. Literally just nostalgia talking.

As far as I remember, it really is my first RPG. However, I still play it from time to time and still enjoy the graphics immensely.

Yeah, that's what nostalgia does. I still enjoy immensely the graphics of LEGO Racers and Re-Volt.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I think the setting is a big reason why the game flopped compared to I with more traditional fantasy.

Put this on the big pile of "things the codex refuses to accept but are actually very true"

The game failed because of the bad combat, and because actually, people were turned off by PoE and didn't come back for seconds. Neither hardcore enough for grognards, nor transparent enough for mouthbreathers.

 

[Parabalus]

A lot fewer abilities, and larger cd/mana costs on them. The Rexxar campaign is pretty close to Spellforce 3, but even there the CDs are longer.

The way combos work in SF3 is also an issue. You need to always start with the same debuff in order to buff the next ability that wants that debuff. This kind of synergy is awful in RPGs and, as it turns out, RTSes.

That's only the case in the beginning, later on many items cause them actively or passively.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Additionally, and I'm making this argument up as I go, a story-driven isometric RPG needs a muuch more simplistic story if you want casuals to be able to digest it. Deadfire was not only trying to be high-brow, because of those incompetents assigned to writing, but was also mixing two plots into one - the fate of the region, and the gods' bullshit. There was no way this would fly.

The currentyear mass audience needs a dramatic story delivered through interactive movies a la Witcher 3 in order to not doze off. For isometric RPG stories that are also digestible by this audience, see D:OS and Pathfinder. Yes, there is also Disco Elysium as a counterexample, but how many games can pull off this kind of writing. I don't like this state of things but "that's just the way it is, some things will never change".

That's a big thing, because what the casuals return to a game for, and praise a game for, is most often its "deep story", not how many rings did the strong independent aumaua chief had on her nose and what this signified about her tribe.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I think i may have a problem with this game.

It seems i'm getting some blurriness in certain parts. Like, the background look super sharp in certain areas, but blurry in other parts (for instance the roof of houses look fine but the grass around them is blurry, like it is interpolated or something). Likewise, when i click on the effect of my Paladin aura or the rest bonuses on each party member, the description is fine until i hit the last party member where the text is blurry and looks almost doubled.

Is this a known issue?