Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Decado]

I would also like to say that I appreciate games that take advantage of the fact that they're on a fucking computer, and so doing "complicated" calculations is what separates them from tabletop games. THAC0 made sense because you were restricted to dice, but it never differentiated between a super-humanly dexterous rogue or a crazily armored fighter -- a (-10) AC was a (-10) AC no matter how you got there, and worse your dex would stack with heavy armor/shield when in fact they should cancel each other out. And in a combat scenario, the "miss" is assumed if you make the roll, but the miss itself is not really dealt with. A swing from an ogre's club, for example, would intersect with the rogue's super low AC in a much different way than the fighter's -- the rogue is presumably dodging, whereas the fighter is taking the hit but not taking any damage. But a fighter getting hit with an ogre's club should go prone, knocked back a step, etc. There's a difference.

Again, all that's fine on the table top in 1986, but if you're living in 2022 and you have the benefit of a fucking computer, why not try to emulate a little more of the simulation?

 

[Butter]

PoE2's system is "the incoming damage is reduced by 25/50/75% damage because the enemy's armor is too high". How the fuck is that more abstract than having to make two separate calculations ?

The first system has a very direct relation to damage. 1 penetration increases damage by 1, 1 armor reduces damage by 1. The second system using a percentage is not intuitive, and there's no way of knowing that it's 25% reduction per point without reading the rules. There's no way of knowing that you get a 30% damage boost with double penetration without reading the rules. Nobody had to read the rules to understand the first system.

You dislike games where you need to read the rules?

No, and I never said as much. I said one system is intuitive and the other is not. I said in my earlier post:

People call THAC0 convoluted.

Even though THAC0 is really simple, people get put off by it because it's not immediately intuitive.

 

[wishbonetail]

PoE2's system is "the incoming damage is reduced by 25/50/75% damage because the enemy's armor is too high". How the fuck is that more abstract than having to make two separate calculations ?

The first system has a very direct relation to damage. 1 penetration increases damage by 1, 1 armor reduces damage by 1. The second system using a percentage is not intuitive, and there's no way of knowing that it's 25% reduction per point without reading the rules. There's no way of knowing that you get a 30% damage boost with double penetration without reading the rules. Nobody had to read the rules to understand the first system.

You dislike games where you need to read the rules?

I dont get it, why do you need to read the rules of PoE or BG for that matter. They do not have "builds" to speak of or hundreds of items. Equipment has mostly linear progression, the higher armor, attack and damage the better, thats it. I just increased what was there to increase without much thought and it usually worked nicely.
Come to think of it, times when i was interested in game mechanics were during Diablo or Grim Dawn playthroughs.

 

[MajorMace]

Grim Dawn

Game has flaws but goddamn I love theory crafting in this one.

 

[Haplo]

PoE2's system is "the incoming damage is reduced by 25/50/75% damage because the enemy's armor is too high". How the fuck is that more abstract than having to make two separate calculations ?

The first system has a very direct relation to damage. 1 penetration increases damage by 1, 1 armor reduces damage by 1. The second system using a percentage is not intuitive, and there's no way of knowing that it's 25% reduction per point without reading the rules. There's no way of knowing that you get a 30% damage boost with double penetration without reading the rules. Nobody had to read the rules to understand the first system.

You dislike games where you need to read the rules?

I dont get it, why do you need to read the rules of PoE or BG for that matter. They do not have "builds" to speak of or hundreds of items. Equipment has mostly linear progression, the higher armor, attack and damage the better, thats it. I just increased what was there to increase without much thought and it usually worked nicely.
Come to think of it, times when i was interested in game mechanics were during Diablo or Grim Dawn playthroughs.

Wouldn't say equipment has linear progression in PoE.
You can keep upgrading some relatively early weapons and armors to last you till the end of the game. For example Hours of St. Rumbalt.

PoE 2 additionally has impressive build complexity.

 

[Decado]

PoE2's system is "the incoming damage is reduced by 25/50/75% damage because the enemy's armor is too high". How the fuck is that more abstract than having to make two separate calculations ?

The first system has a very direct relation to damage. 1 penetration increases damage by 1, 1 armor reduces damage by 1. The second system using a percentage is not intuitive, and there's no way of knowing that it's 25% reduction per point without reading the rules. There's no way of knowing that you get a 30% damage boost with double penetration without reading the rules. Nobody had to read the rules to understand the first system.

You dislike games where you need to read the rules?

I dont get it, why do you need to read the rules of PoE or BG for that matter. They do not have "builds" to speak of or hundreds of items. Equipment has mostly linear progression, the higher armor, attack and damage the better, thats it. I just increased what was there to increase without much thought and it usually worked nicely.
Come to think of it, times when i was interested in game mechanics were during Diablo or Grim Dawn playthroughs.

Wouldn't say equipment has linear progression in PoE.
You can keep upgrading some relatively early weapons and armors to last you till the end of the game. For example Hours of St. Rumbalt.

PoE 2 additionally has impressive build complexity.

I think in my review I was disappointed by the item variety (I'd have to go back and read it, which I'm not doing again) and I still am, a little bit. Like, great swords are a perfect example. There's basically 3 worth mentioning in the base game -- Justice, Tidefall, and Hours. I remember in my first Paladin playthrough, I got Justice from Raedric's hold at a fairly low level, and I used it for most of the game. To be sure, part of the reason for this was that I was new to the game (because the game was new) and I didn't know that if I maxed mechanics early, I could find Tidefall early (or earlier) than I had originally. Okay, fair enough.

When I look back at a game like Baldur's Gate II, however, I feel like there is a greater variety of weapons more evenly distributed through the game. You get Sarevok's sword, then Lilarcor, and then you have a bunch more -- Flame of the North, Carsomyr, Gram, Soul Reaver, Warblade, etc. Same thing with Long Swords -- Daystar felt like a thing, an item that would carry you through the game (and it could!). I dunno, it felt like there was more of a connection to the equipment, like it mattered what you carried, and you cared about what you had. Maybe that was the writing? The item description for Carsomyr is fucking bad ass.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

One critic of PoE 2 that I still can't wrap my head around is that its armor/penetration system is "convoluted". It's simpler than before, you only need to remember one system rather than two and the effects are clearly indicated in the UI. Do those people mean something else ?

If anything, the system that is convoluted in PoE 2 (and partly because they didn't make a good UI for it, thank god for mods) is the attribute-specific (de)buff system, with 36 names to remember, each with different effects, and interactions between them that are not always clear.

It's not convoluted, it's just not good design.

 

[wishbonetail]

PoE2's system is "the incoming damage is reduced by 25/50/75% damage because the enemy's armor is too high". How the fuck is that more abstract than having to make two separate calculations ?

The first system has a very direct relation to damage. 1 penetration increases damage by 1, 1 armor reduces damage by 1. The second system using a percentage is not intuitive, and there's no way of knowing that it's 25% reduction per point without reading the rules. There's no way of knowing that you get a 30% damage boost with double penetration without reading the rules. Nobody had to read the rules to understand the first system.

You dislike games where you need to read the rules?

I dont get it, why do you need to read the rules of PoE or BG for that matter. They do not have "builds" to speak of or hundreds of items. Equipment has mostly linear progression, the higher armor, attack and damage the better, thats it. I just increased what was there to increase without much thought and it usually worked nicely.
Come to think of it, times when i was interested in game mechanics were during Diablo or Grim Dawn playthroughs.

Wouldn't say equipment has linear progression in PoE.
You can keep upgrading some relatively early weapons and armors to last you till the end of the game. For example Hours of St. Rumbalt.

PoE 2 additionally has impressive build complexity.

I guess, it comes down to difficulty. Diabloids usually push your builds to the limits so you would delve deeper into game mechanics. While party based rpgs easy enough for me not to care. Maybe it is the reason i prefer solo walkthroughs.

 

[Haplo]

PoE2's system is "the incoming damage is reduced by 25/50/75% damage because the enemy's armor is too high". How the fuck is that more abstract than having to make two separate calculations ?

The first system has a very direct relation to damage. 1 penetration increases damage by 1, 1 armor reduces damage by 1. The second system using a percentage is not intuitive, and there's no way of knowing that it's 25% reduction per point without reading the rules. There's no way of knowing that you get a 30% damage boost with double penetration without reading the rules. Nobody had to read the rules to understand the first system.

You dislike games where you need to read the rules?

I dont get it, why do you need to read the rules of PoE or BG for that matter. They do not have "builds" to speak of or hundreds of items. Equipment has mostly linear progression, the higher armor, attack and damage the better, thats it. I just increased what was there to increase without much thought and it usually worked nicely.
Come to think of it, times when i was interested in game mechanics were during Diablo or Grim Dawn playthroughs.

Wouldn't say equipment has linear progression in PoE.
You can keep upgrading some relatively early weapons and armors to last you till the end of the game. For example Hours of St. Rumbalt.

PoE 2 additionally has impressive build complexity.

I think in my review I was disappointed by the item variety (I'd have to go back and read it, which I'm not doing again) and I still am, a little bit. Like, great swords are a perfect example. There's basically 3 worth mentioning in the base game -- Justice, Tidefall, and Hours. I remember in my first Paladin playthrough, I got Justice from Raedric's hold at a fairly low level, and I used it for most of the game. To be sure, part of the reason for this was that I was new to the game (because the game was new) and I didn't know that if I maxed mechanics early, I could find Tidefall early (or earlier) than I had originally. Okay, fair enough.

When I look back at a game like Baldur's Gate II, however, I feel like there is a greater variety of weapons more evenly distributed through the game. You get Sarevok's sword, then Lilarcor, and then you have a bunch more -- Flame of the North, Carsomyr, Gram, Soul Reaver, Warblade, etc. Same thing with Long Swords -- Daystar felt like a thing, an item that would carry you through the game (and it could!). I dunno, it felt like there was more of a connection to the equipment, like it mattered what you carried, and you cared about what you had. Maybe that was the writing? The item description for Carsomyr is fucking bad ass.

Well, in my case its quality over quantity. And I prefer how transformative some of PoE items feel (YMMV). Particularly things like Hours of St. Rumbalt, Tall Grass in conjunction with Barbarian Carnage were far more memorable then Baldur's Gate items (not that Carsomyr or Crom Faeyr were bad, mind you). St. Ydwyn's Redeemer or Stormcaller also felt a lot more impactful then most BG items (those are from WM1, though).

Then PoE2 has a lot more unique and even more interesting weaponry. In my opnion, PoE2 has far superior itemization to BGs. Again, YMMV.

 

[Blutwurstritter]

I like that BG items are fairly simple and straightforward and if you have the weapon proficiency you can make good use of them. Its also clear which item is well suited for given a situation, for example Spider's Bane against movement restriction, Lilacor granting immunity vs charm and confusion, mace of disruption vs undead, weapons with fire/acid damage vs trolls, etc. Its been quite some time since I played PoE 1 but I think I had a harder time assessing items. My pleasure of finding new items is lower when I can't tell if its useful or not.

 

[Faarbaute]

On the topic of the uniqueness and coolness of items, I feel like it's been really hit and miss in RPGs lately, in Pillars of Eternity especially so.

Often there will be some cool items, your Holy Avengers and the like, but they will be bought from merchants, gotten in some other underwhelming fashion or be very specialized and irregular weapon types and generally, sadly, submerged in a sea of shit.

Then there will be a thrilling hunt for a dragon with its ancient hoard as your ultimate prize. What relics could there be guarded in this ancient treasury? A holy sword, a shield, an armor or a long forgotten tyrant's crown? No, there's a kurki and a Bandit's Rotten Leather Armor of Constriction. (this armor allows you to take -1 less damage, at the expense of -40% movement speed!)

How many times haven't you run into a variation of the above scenario? Or something as simple as finding say, a Red Dragon Helmet and thinking to yourself, "Wow! I bet at some point I will be able to claim a Red Dragon Armor to go with it" but no, there's no payoff, It's just a one-off. Bonus point if you find a diffrently colored dragon armor in a completely unrelated fashion, with no link at all to the previous part.

This coupled with a generally lackluster basic set of equipment, as IMO, is the case with Pillars of Eternity, with it's myriad of diffrent armor and weapon types that all amount to basic gear beeing varying degrees of crap, creates a really deflating feeling overall.

Now, if done intentionally, a clever man could use said lacklusterness as a crutch to spin hundreds of cool ideas for unique equipment, all mostly rooted on the idea of not beeing as lackluster as their basic counterpart but yeah, that's another discussion.

Anyway, I'm not sure why it's become like this. My suspicion is that it has to do with a general disconnect between the developers and the experience of the players playing the RPG itself. It's seems like a massive faliure to manage and play into the player's expectations, born either from a misunderstanding, having the wrong priorities, a lack of interest or a desire to subvert said expectations. In any case there seems to be a real disconnect here, whatever the reason.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Things different than stats having an impact on weapon coolness is a very valid and important point. But when I think how cool the itemization was, the first question that comes to my mind is: is there a nice game to use these weapons in? I don't use Bloodlust anymore, but finding it in Arnika's bank vault for the first time and still being like "woooah!" something like 20h later is a very fond memory as far as my crpg experience goes. PoE did not offer anything close to that. That being said, I think PoE2 was a huge step forward when it comes to itemization and some of it was really decent. The branching upgrades were a p cool idea, too.

 

[Nikanuur]

However it's true that not every class offers a broad range of skill-sets, and some builds reach their true potential only through particular items, PoE does offer some builds and stuff. Some of the examples:

Fighter:
Fast-hitting, double-wielding melee focused on quickly issued Interrupts (i.e. ministuns)
Two-handed modal(ed) to especially slow but brutal attacks
Tower-shield tank forcing enemies to engage him, regenerating almost as fast as a troll
Classic jack-of-all-trades, fast buff-potions gulping, fast switching between four situational weapon slots

Mage
"Spellsword" (Concelhaut be damned )
Debuff caster (blind, confuse, snare, sicken, stats debuff, paralyzes etc.)
Pyro / Cryo / Acid maniac
Wand / Scepter-master utilizing various and (very) usefull effects of class' ranged weapons (Gyrd Háewanes Sténes can be especially insane on Dominates / Dazes / Stuns. Alloth's dominated a sky-high-resists Dragon with it once fhs ).

Ranger
Slow, proning glass-cannon with Arbalests / Firearms
Fast-shooting ranged Interrupt master
Beastmaster, animal companion with trips, charges, passives creating buffs for the Ranger, or even off-tanking to a degree

...

Thanks, I didn't know that with the Tall Grass and Barbarian. I've always wondered how good a weapon that actually could be if... but never got to try it out.

My moment of awe has been with that said Stormcaller. Sagani with "maxed" Dexterity and Perception, Stunning Arrows, Twinned Arrows, Interrupt Master. It took the previous high-fantasy, semi-slowish combat to totally unforeseen highlights of fun and gore. Ultrafast shots, storms with nearly every odd hit, stun and interrupts all the time, everything "jolting and screaming and dying I don't even know when and how...", animal companion tripping the rest. Aaaah, those were the times

Here's the skill-set
https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/83303-advice-for-stormcaller-ranger/

 

[Faarbaute]

I think PoE2 was a huge step forward when it comes to itemization and some of it was really decent.

The improvment was visible immediately following the DLCs and carried into PoE2 aswell but it always came across more like a consession on the part of the developers for me, not something they were really enthusiastic about.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

itemization is one of the few areas pillows actually shines in

 

[Decado]

I like that BG items are fairly simple and straightforward and if you have the weapon proficiency you can make good use of them. Its also clear which item is well suited for given a situation, for example Spider's Bane against movement restriction, Lilacor granting immunity vs charm and confusion, mace of disruption vs undead, weapons with fire/acid damage vs trolls, etc. Its been quite some time since I played PoE 1 but I think I had a harder time assessing items. My pleasure of finding new items is lower when I can't tell if its useful or not.

I think this is the crux of it, for me. Going back to great swords, look at Justice. It's "Fine" and has the enchantment "Crushing Lash." Uhh, okay. That's cool, I guess. Right? Then why does it feel so underwhelming? For the first unique great sword you can get, it feels pretty fucking lame. I have no idea -- beyond the weapon doing some extra damage -- if it's a good sword to use, or not. It doesn't feel particularly useful.

 

[Haplo]

Then why does it feel so underwhelming? For the first unique great sword you can get (...)

Umm, I think I have found your issue.

To me it already sounds more interesting then a generic D&D +1 sword. And with the Fine enchantment + lash it should indeed make more of a difference.
What more exactly do you expect from "the first unique greatsword"?

 

[mediocrepoet]

You can also add or improve qualities on equipment. It's impossible to get crushing lash through enchanting, so if you found that valuable such as for dealing with DR since the sword will now do crush, piercing, and slashing damage, you could build up its quality from fine to whatever you want, etc.

It's nice because you can have personalized items you carry with you for the entire campaign if you want, whereas in BG, items become obsolete.

 

[Dwarvophile]

Some of those unique weapons influenced the way I built my chars, especially in PoE2, and I would keep them for most of the game. I liked that. And I liked the short texts that came with them (moments when PoE's lore wasn't delivered in a tiresome manner were rare enough).

 

[Blutwurstritter]

I don't like building characters around items, perhaps that's the reason I'm not particularly impressed by PoE's itemization. I associate that approach to itemization with Diablo-like games or MMORPGs and not with crpgs. But most of my gripes are based in the mechanics of the game. Perhaps I'd like the items more if the systems were different, its hard to judge separately.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Then why does it feel so underwhelming?

Because it looks very simple?

 

[Dwarvophile]

2. no spellcasting outside of combat
A very good change IMO. Hate the buffing routine of 10+ buffs per character per rest. This way you have to consider which buffs are really worth it - and which may save your skin in a given situation. Of course you still use the same old buffs too much, but its a, pardon... balancing issue.

 

[Dwarvophile]

Hate the buffing routine of 10+ buffs per character per rest. This way you have to consider which buffs are really worth it - and which may save your skin in a given situation. Of course you still use the same old buffs too much, but its a, pardon...

This is exactly what turned me of Pathfinder. It becomes so repetitive!
Buff everybody, now run through the dungeon as fast as possible & kill everything before the enlarge spell effects runs off. The cleaning team will pass later to get the loot anyway. I think about this spell in particular because it is so silly how they adapted it. Imagine casting enlarge on yourself while in plate armor. What a mess. In a pen&paper session, the DM would have a laugh.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Imagine casting enlarge on yourself while in plate armor. What a mess. In a pen&paper session, the DM would have a laugh.

Why exactly?

"All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell."

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/enlarge-person/

 

[Dwarvophile]

Imagine casting enlarge on yourself while in plate armor. What a mess. In a pen&paper session, the DM would have a laugh.

Why exactly?

"All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell."

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/enlarge-person/

Yes, starting with 3.5, I don't think it was before.

EDIT : actually you're right, it was, even in 2nd ed, which is the edition I played most...