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Reasons Why Younger Gamers Don't Get Older RPGs?.

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^^

This is essentially how I got a friend into older RPGs, currently got him into Gothic because of what I heard about and also sent him a Fallout 1 key.

Essentially the same thing as what barricade said, he played Skyrim but was bored and found oblivion/morrowind but didn't continue searching because of COD and other games. Just found out what he would like to see that Skyrim is lacking, then made recommendations based off of it and now the guy is hooked.

I was lucky in knowing about them because I had some Gen X and millennial cousins who showed me the games when I was really young. Pretty much outlined the whole long process it takes for a zoomer to find cRPGs in a post earlier in this thread, almost impossible.
 

NandoGando

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After reading much retardation concerning the venerable IE games and how modern gamers "Can't into them" it struck me that there may be a reason(s) beyond decline, lowered IQ, and general spastication.
Nah mate it's not even that. It's just zoomers don't try. I speak as one. It's literally because they don't even try and have no interest in them. Be in my friend's mind for a second: you played Fallout New Vegas, Pillars of Eternity, etc etc. You see your friend play this game
mq20qgzqvdi51.png

You don't even know what the hell you're looking at. What is the guy at the top? What is going on? Is your friend winning or losing?
See what I mean? Zoomers think these games are too complex and not even that fun, that they wouldn't even try it out themselves. This isn't even about the map system, and how some games you gotta map it out yourself!
Even the few times they did try to play older games, it would end up like this guy https://yewtu.be/watch?v=jwr5DEh4lKQ, in which they get lost and give up after one attempt.
Games went from a one on one battle of you beating a game, to you completing a game and the developers trying to milk you for money
There's fun and unfun complexity. Trying to figure out wtf is going on in a battle or walking around for 40 minutes trying to find a town because there's no in-game map is boring. Figuring out an optimal build, the potential resolutions of a quest or a particular way of killing an enemy is not. The success of games like Underrail and WOTR clearly shows there's an appetite for certain types of complexity, it's not zoomers' fault old games have the less appealing types.
 

0sacred

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Currently trying to get a flatmate (21 years) into actual RPG's. It started with us talking about RPG's and him namedropping shit that were definitely not RPG's. So I had to think of the epitome of a "good" RPG, and I came up with... Baldur's Gate :dealwithit: Not thinking of the fact that there's probably no way for his zoomer ass to get hold of the original BG's, and that he'll have to play the Enhanced Editions. Anyway, I'm very curious if he'll try and like it (I told him to at least play BG2) or if I should just give up hope in this generation.
 

Vic

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Currently trying to get a flatmate (21 years) into actual RPG's. It started with us talking about RPG's and him namedropping shit that were definitely not RPG's. So I had to think of the epitome of a "good" RPG, and I came up with... Baldur's Gate :dealwithit: Not thinking of the fact that there's probably no way for his zoomer ass to get hold of the original BG's, and that he'll have to play the Enhanced Editions. Anyway, I'm very curious if he'll try and like it (I told him to at least play BG2) or if I should just give up hope in this generation.
Seeing how GOG has removed the Original Saga from their store in favor for the EEs, you can still google for that and a piracy website with gog in the name should come up on the first page.

Not saying piracy is good (lol) but that’s the only way I know to get the original BG in digital form.
 

0sacred

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Or I could give him the installers as I have the originals (you can still download those from GOG, right? Haven't done it in ages). But actually playing the EE's might be better for a newb to ease them in.
 

ds

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Seeing how GOG has removed the Original Saga from their store in favor for the EEs, you can still google for that and a piracy website with gog in the name should come up on the first page.

Not saying piracy is good (lol) but that’s the only way I know to get the original BG in digital form.
Not saying you should give Beamdog your money, but
The first sentence on the Baldur's Gate Store Page on GOG.com said:
Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition includes the classic Baldur's Gate: The Original Saga. More information here.
 

Vic

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Seeing how GOG has removed the Original Saga from their store in favor for the EEs, you can still google for that and a piracy website with gog in the name should come up on the first page.

Not saying piracy is good (lol) but that’s the only way I know to get the original BG in digital form.
Not saying you should give Beamdog your money, but
The first sentence on the Baldur's Gate Store Page on GOG.com said:
Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition includes the classic Baldur's Gate: The Original Saga. More information here.
that’s like buying a hooker to get free condoms.

that is what is said on the page but it’s a bit more difficult than that. See here.

You are right tho, forgot about that.
 

MLMarkland

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i'm 20. i come from fortnite and skyrim, basically. 2/3 years ago i had no idea what a Crpg was. never heard of it before. curiosity brought me into this world, i was playing skyrim for months and i got bored. found the game too empty, it was lacking something but didn't know what exactly since it was my only reference in this genre.
so i got curious, i googled "skyrim similar games", got into oblivion, hated it, then oblivion took me to morrowind, and morrowind took me to baldur's gate etc etc. all these games looked amazing to me, but at first i couldn't get into those games because it was a chore to make them work on modern systems, besides, most of these were also lacking resolution scaling.

but at some point the attraction got too strong, and i finally got into them. now i can't stop playing crpgs.

the fact that i wasn't playing old rpgs before has nothing to do with the fact that if i read or not, and it also has nothing to do with the fact that you guys think old crpgs are too hard for casuals (they're not by the way, crpgs are not hard at all. never read more than 3 pages of a crpg manual and never had any trouble beating those games. the only challenging crpgs i've played were dungeon rats and AoD), i never played old rpgs before because i've never heard of them. as simple as that.
For me? I just started with Doom and Fallout 1 cause my computer couldn't run anything else, then I got into CRPGs from there. This was the first year I played games younger than 4 years, without going to friend's houses and using their consoles to play

5 pages of old people mumbling, caring so much about what my generation think, begging for answers, and wondering why we don't play their old games like it should be mandatory is somewhat hilarious lol.

anyway, this is pure gold:
If the younger gamer's brain has been wired to the point where we don't even read manuals anymore, then they'll never play a game like PST. And if they lack the mental capacity to play a game like PST.
hi. i'm 20. i played planescape torment when i was 19, it literally was the third crpg i've played, didn't read a single page of the manual (there's no need), and yet, i finished it without breaking a sweat. how is that possible?

see that chippy's comment? this is exactly what i was saying the other day. i have no idea where you old folks got this idea that old crpgs needed some special mental capacities or good gaming skills, you guys are so convinced old crpgs require high IQ it's unbelievable. about PST, as i was playing along, i felt like i was playing some casual jrpg i used to play when i was 9. no joke. there's nothing hard or challenging about PST, and it's not even as well written as any random novel, that game doesn't require anything special. still a good game tho.

i know it hurts, but you'll be fine i guess.
I agree. I'm a bonified fucking moron yet I can play CRPGs and read books just fine. Even my linage, had us being farmers, construction workers or shitty convince store owners. CRPGs aren't high brow, they're just good old adventure fun.
Fallout 1 is the best into classic rpgs starter imo. BG is more accessible, but the point isn’t accessibility. If someone can get Fallout 1, they will then be able to get anything else. Deus Ex is the marijuana is a gateway drug option to Fallout 1 speedball option.
 

MLMarkland

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E4E54BAC-822F-428F-8783-18A548999DF3.jpeg


Just looked this up and it’s consistent with my experience.
I think that data might be a bit misleading since it's market share, it doesn't account for market size. I'm not sure the comic book industry has ever fully recovered from the crash. Yeah it bounced back since the mid-90s but it's still a far smaller market than it used to be. Although I do love how whoever made this just went "fuck knows" during the period between 94-97. That's accurate.
While comics peaked as a format in terms of gross sales during gen x being kids/young adults, nearly zero of that is due to gen X & marvel.
Well there's 2 possible reasons for this: 1. It's possible that you and your friend group were actually productive kids who were going outside and snogging girls and shit (which considering you're on RPGCodex is fairly unlikely but it is possible) because comics were still reasonably popular with kids/teens in the early 90s. Maybe it's just that you and no one in your friend group was into them? And again it also probably depends on where you lived as well.

But the second possible reason is because you're kinda referring to the speculator market that popped up around that time. There's a lot of reasons for the crash but a big one is that at the tail end of the 80s comic books started going up for auction and were making record breaking sales of hundreds of thousands of dollars for mint/near-mint condition issues. Keep in mind that comic books were essentially worthless before then, sold for pennies and then usually thrown away by your mum or treated terribly. Turns out if you had a near-mint copy of Action Comics #1 (the first Superman comic) which you'd bought back in 1938 for 2c you might now be sitting on a fucking fortune. Investor types got wind of this and started buying up new comics on the assumption that 20-40 years from then they could be sitting on a fortune too. They usually concentrated on the stuff that was making bank at auctions so that's number #1 issues, first appearances of new characters, famous character deaths, rare or limited edition variant covers and so on. They'd often buy multiple copies of the same issue too and immediately seal it in a mylar bag to keep it in mint condition forever.

Problem is that the publishers realized that this was making them serious bank and leaned hard into it, especially Marvel, relaunching series with brand new #1 issues, introducing new characters every other month, killing well-known characters every few months, releasing issues with multiple different cover variants (like holofoil and lenticular variants) and so on and on. This briefly lead to higher sales but unfortunately at some point someone must've realized that the reason why Action Comics #1 or Detective Comics #27 (the first Batman) or Amazing Fantasy #15 (first Spider-Man) were worth so much money is that no one ever thought they were going to be worth anything so most of them got binned or lost or were eaten by the fucking dog and they were now incredibly rare. None of these new comics were rare since tons of people had bought them up and many were keeping them in mint condition. As a result you can go on Ebay right now and find copies of #1 or big issues from the 90s and get them for less than the price they were sold for back then. That's how worthless they are.

Or to put it more succinctly:
MTE2U3M.gif


To be clear that's not the only reason for the crash. There's a ton of others including problems including issues with the direct market, the 'Distributor Wars,' a lot of other dumb shit Marvel did, fuck me I haven't even mentioned Image comics... And the final big problem which is that a lot of the stuff being written during this period was just utter trash. Like, really badly written, edgy to the point of self-parody, faux-gritty nonsense. Which might be another reason why you didn't bother with comics.

At any rate, the commercial activity lapse license explanation makes sense to me. That language is not unique to marvel deals though.

Every license I’ve ever secured and game production deal I’ve ever signed has included a commercial activity reversion clause, it’s a universal clause (different names) for licensing and production (screenplay options also usually have a similar clause, for example).
Sure, I was just trying to explain why for a few years there were multiple Marvel movies competing with each other at the box office, particularly during the early to mid 2010s. You had Amazing Spider-Man 2 (a Marvel character owned by Sony) competing against Fantastic 4 (Marvel characters owned by 20th Century Fox) competing with whatever Marvel proper was putting out at the time. You asked about the proliferation of Marvel movies - competing studios shitting out terrible superhero movies that were rushed into production in order to hold on to the rights is one of the big reasons.

EDIT: Jesus fuck, you re-edited your comment while I wrote this with fucking 563 extra goddamn words. I might reply to that later... if I'm bothered. This is just a reply to everything from that sales chart onwards since that's what you originally wrote and what I was replying to
All of this makes complete sense and I agree. Marvel movies via marvel comics does appear to be a market and transactional idiosyncrasy (the Sony example is a great one).

Then since marvel flooded the zone, DC / Warner Bros et al tried to play catch up and were on the back foot for a decade.
 

MLMarkland

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This is also a slight distortion of my original query, which was, reformulated:

“What caused the initial surge in marvel movie popularity when the relative popularity of comic books had spent 30+ years collapsing?”

I used some but not all examples to illustrate the general question (few if any successful video games etc.). To be more expansive: in the 1950s as a kid, you had a handful of basic choices for entertainment: 1) outside; 2) inside; 3) books & comic books — with TV on the rise.

1960s: 1) outside; 2) inside; 3) books & comic books; 4) TV.

1970s: 1) outside; 2) inside; 3) books & comic books; 4) TV; 5) arcades.

1980s everything from the 1970s + video games, cable TV, the early internet, VHS home movies, an explosion of IP/brands/concepts on every platform/channel.

1990s everything from the 1980s plus a bunch more stuff (internet, email, chat, pagers, cell phones, etc etc etc).

2000s everything from the 1990s plus social media, modern internet, multiplayer gaming, and on and on and on.

The point isn’t so much the gross sales, but rather the amount of time and “mindshare” that comic books occupied for gen X and millennials. Comic books may have pushed forward into peak consumer era (80s - 00s) with a proliferation of options and a larger market.

But they indisputably competed with a huge increase in options for entertainment (so many it’s impossible to list them by the 2000s). Yet despite there being a massive proliferation of heavily consumed entertainment that wasn’t marvel superheros, marvel flooded the market with movies and, while the movies are bad and barely make a profit, they also do inarguably drive most theater audience in the 2010s.

I’ll go into more detail below. I generally agree that licensing agreements combined with disney merger & consolidation can absolutely explain most of the event — but it doesn’t explain the prominence and mindshare increase (the opposite should have happened). International theater markets do help explain some of it as well (way easier to translate “super hero smash” into 30 languages than Bridge on the River Kwai and no one will get offended).

But even with the more solid explanations we are getting to — it still fails to explain a massive shift in the general direction of entertainment markets, to wit, the 2010s saw “convergence of market optionality” in movies. But throughout history, even through today with older technology such as “books and other written material” (even if digital), the general trend for all recorded history is “divergence of market optionality.”

What the hell does that mean?

If you take a snapshot every generation of the number of available options for anything in any market, and compare across recorded history, in almost every instance, the options of vertical domains (books+movies+TV —> books+movies+TV+games) and the options inside vertical domains (count the number of new “books” you have access to online today and compare it with any point in prior human history) both increase & diverge.

Except a few exceptions. Only one of which I can think of off top of head: tentpole movies for broad audience that includes both kids and teenagers and YA (ie the Star Wars, wizard of Oz, superhero movie option). The “tentpole movie” experienced dramatic convergence in the past 15 years, even while games, TV/steaming, all other entertainment options continued to diverge and multiply.
Okay this is all the shit you added in post. I'll try to respond but I think you're asking at least 2 different questions here: 1. "What caused the initial surge in Marvel movie popularity despite comics sales being well on the decline?" To which the answer is mostly Spider-Man 1 and 2 and later Iron Man being good movies. I tried to explain that one with more detail in my first post but maybe I didn't emphasise how the success of those opened the floodgates for Marvel. The more interesting question is about "The convergence of market options in movie theaters," (just to shorten the fuck outta it) which is a trickier question to answer since there's no one reason. You already pointed to Disney's media acquisitions and mergers and international, non-English, audiences as factors but I think you've missed a really important one: the death of the DVD market.

Sometime during the early 2010s the DVD market, and really the entire home video market, completely died and got replaced by streaming services like Netflix. There's a really great interview with Matt Damon somewhere that I'll try to find but in it he talks about how he made a movie where Michael Douglas played Liberace and he played his gay lover. Cost $25 million to make, which is a hefty sum by normal standards but fuck all by Hollywood standards. And when you add up the costs of having Douglas and Damon, a director like Steven Soderbergh, a good cinematographer, a crew, lighting rigs, a catering department and so on, $25 million doesn't seem that excessive.

Problem is by that point the DVD had just died and some Hollywood insider sat Damon down and told him, "You're gonna have to put as much money into P&A (print and advertising) to promote this thing as you put into the budget, so now we're up to $50 million. And we split profits 50/50 with the distributor (the theatre owners) so now we have to make $100 million at the box office. And that's just to break even, anything above that's profit, for some comedy/drama about Liberace's twink." Before that you could afford to not make all your money in the theater, you could wait for the dvd and make money off that. And that's changed what kinds of movies get made now. Just looking into it now, the movie Damon was talking about is called Beyond the Candelabra and despite premiering at Cannes, it ended up being released as a TV movie on HBO.

Anyway, superhero movies were already hot and the MCU was already getting started before the DVD market died, so it doesn't explain the 'initial surge of popularity.' But I think it does help explain why literally every fucking film is a superhero film these days.
A prestigious analysis.

The “hey Matt Damon you’re fucked on this” story is 100% accurate as well. Streaming made 100% of all movies and TV ever accessible, which completely whacked the economics of new movies for niche audiences.

From personal experience, this is why we capped the budget for Malibu Road at $2M. I knew trying to be successful in the $20M to $40M adult demo range with a thriller or drama or dramedy etc. was impossible by 2012 or so.

As for:

1. It's possible that you and your friend group were actually productive kids who were going outside and snogging girls and shit (which considering you're on RPGCodex is fairly unlikely but it is possible) because comics were still reasonably popular with kids/teens in the early 90s.

As to this, I’ll say you are correct (and intuitive) that I did not grow up in a normal environment. Went to a top ten all guys prep school with 69 in our graduating class. What that caused is a broadening of interests. We could (and did) play AD&D with Seventeen cover models while also most of the tabletop players also playing sports (but always losing bc the school was so small). Even the “nerds” played sports at the school, they were just more likely to be into tennis or track & field or fencing etc.

So we didn’t really have cliques, and everyone dabled cross-zeitgeist. Prototypical nerds playing sports and dating, etc. Prototypical jocks playing tabletop, Fallout 1, owning & reading Watchmen, etc.

Our middle linebacker actually introduced me to Gold Box and Fallout series, atypical maybe.

So the entire class, and the school generally, would engage in pretty broad entertainment choices, but someone was more likely to read Watchmen (and say Batman or Punisher to a lesser degree), or something new, than what was viewed as our parents’ comic books. We played Space 1889, Twilight 2000 and GURPs as much as any other TTRPG.

Which is definitely where my curiosity about marvel initiates — it just wasn’t popular in our peer group at all. But plenty of basic things also were, like Magic, so it wasn’t looking down on marvel, but more just didn’t speak to anyone and was heavily associated with being “our dads’ comic books.”
 
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ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Fallout 1 is the best into classic rpgs starter imo. BG is more accessible, but the point isn’t accessibility. If someone can get Fallout 1, they will then be able to get anything else. Deus Ex is the marijuana is a gateway drug option to Fallout 1 speedball option.
I hate when people say this.

Fallout is an extremely overrated game. Shady Sands is a dogshit town. The writing is poor and bland, the way you recruit Ian is shit, and the town itself looks like shit. The combat throughout the entire game is bad too.
There's fun and unfun complexity. Trying to figure out wtf is going on in a battle or walking around for 40 minutes trying to find a town because there's no in-game map is boring. Figuring out an optimal build, the potential resolutions of a quest or a particular way of killing an enemy is not. The success of games like Underrail and WOTR clearly shows there's an appetite for certain types of complexity, it's not zoomers' fault old games have the less appealing types.
This guy is absolutely right. There is such a thing as fun complexity, and unfun complexity. I have no issue with complexity, but I don't like obtuse complexity. Chess is an example of a game that is actually extremely simple in its rules, but is also incredibly complex with how deep you can take it. From my experience, old school games seem complex due to how user interfaces were designed and how unintuitive (to someone who didn't grow up with these kinds of games) they are. Obviously the disappearance of manuals is a shame, and would go a long way to making these games easier to approach/understand, but I don't think anyone will try and argue that old pre-renaissance RPGs were designed well in terms of accessibility and comfort of use.

In terms of what RPG would be best to get someone into RPGs, this is something that depends on what types of games a person plays. Dungeon Rats into Age of Decadence could be a very viable path towards good RPGs, as could the Infinity Engine trifecta with IWD, BG, and PS:T (IWD is the combat heavy IE game, PS:T is the narrative heavy IE game, and BG is the balance between the two. Funny coincidence how that works out). Disco Elysium could be another great way for someone to enter into the cRPG genre.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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I'm sympathetic to complaints about bad graphics or bad UI, though the latter is a bit of a puzzling complaint considering the general decline that has occurred in CRPG UIs over the last two decades, not entirely attributable to consolization, though that factor certainly exacerbated the trend. Meanwhile, Dungeon Master in 1987 devised a spectacularly innovative user interface that would eventually be widely copied in CRPGs (and beyond). And there are plenty of old CRPGs that either were created with functional 2D graphics that have aged decently or at least have remakes with substantially better graphics than the original.

r0SBWJU.png
nnKgXKI.png


Less sympathetic to complaints about "quality of life" aspects, such as auto-mapping, but if a newcomer to CRPGs absolutely requires them, there are still recently-released quality games in older CRPG subgenres that do offer QOL missing earlier in the subgenre. For example, the "real-time blobber" Dungeon Master-like subgenre includes Legend of Grimrock (2012) and LoG II (2014) with automapping, while the "turn-based blobber" Wizardry-like subgenre has Grimoire: Heralds of the Winged Exemplar (2017).
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm sympathetic to complaints about bad graphics or bad UI, though the latter is a bit of a puzzling complaint considering that general decline that has occurred in CRPG UIs over the last two decades, not entirely attributable to consolization, though that factor certainly exacerbated the trend. Meanwhile, Dungeon Master in 1987 devised a spectacularly innovative user interface that would eventually be widely copied in CRPGs (and beyond). And there are plenty of old CRPGs that either were created with functional 2D graphics that have aged decently or at least have remakes with substantially better graphics than the original.
You rated me but your post seems to be a general critique/observation, so I'm unsure if this is targeted towards what I wrote. Plenty of games back then had shit user interfaces, and plenty of games now have shit user interfaces. I don't think anyone here is claiming user interfaces today are great, we're just citing reasons why young people today might have difficulty getting into older games.

As an example, I downloaded Ultima 7, and I spent half an hour trying to get the UI to work how I want and figure out the controls, before closing the game because I couldn't be bothered to faff about any more. Shit like this is extremely common in older games, and whether or not it is common in new games too is irrelevant, as any game that has obtuse/weird/obnoxious controls is unlikely to hold a person's attention.

I maintain however that DOSBox is the biggest reasons young people don't play new games. I bet way more people would be open to trying new games if it wasn't for having to fuck around with this dogshit software to make the game work. Both of the images in your post loko gorgeous, but I already know that moving the cursor around the screen will feel like absolute shit, and just playing the game in general will feel bad. Shame.
 

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What the original poster said... I'm quite certain mobile phones and video streaming services will turn the current generation into extremely short attention span retards.

I guess people who do not have the patience to read a novel see cRPGS as really shitty primitive board games, or movies--. Whereas my generation sees them as books++.

However, I think most people were always too dumb/impatient for games that require some actual patience and thinking. Why do you think shoot'em ups and shitty arcade conversions were the most lucrative genre in the 80s? It's easy to forget that for every prestigious cRPG from the 80s we got hundreds of exceedingly bad arcade conversion cash grabs.

I started re-reading some prestigious 90s magazines, one of the Hungarian ones enjoying a "cult" status even today (Commodore Világ). They almost exclusively focused on adventure, RPG, strategy, and simulator games, and pretty much called the fans of arcades/shoot'em ups (and later, FPS games) mouth-breathers with no taste on every second page in every issue... So yeah, I think the *majority* was dumb back then too, but today I guess the ratio is just much worse given that "gaming has become mainstream"... I guess this just make it a lot easier for publishers to make more $$$ with crappy derivative content.
 

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As an example, I downloaded Ultima 7, and I spent half an hour trying to get the UI to work how I want and figure out the controls, before closing the game because I couldn't be bothered to faff about any more.
[...]

I maintain however that DOSBox is the biggest reasons young people don't play new games. I bet way more people would be open to trying new games if it wasn't for having to fuck around with this dogshit software to make the game work.
These are built-in IQ tests, mate :smug:

We did fuck around, and we enjoyed it. Moreover, where I grew up, we played all games with zero access to the original manuals, figuring out everything by trial and error, so...
 

Rincewind

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No attention to deal with stuff that require reading or trial and error mechanics. See that what pulls most revenue in media are "shorts"(tik tok, youtube shorts).
Game market is pure degeneracy on its profile, devour content and jump to the next new stuff ASAP and given the influx of games being shat on the steam store you got an army of ADHD crackheads.
Basically what I said above, yes.
 
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Disco Elysium could be another great way for someone to enter into the cRPG genre.
Not commenting on anything else in your post except this. I disagree on this point, because Disco Elysium is nothing like any other cRPG, especially the "classics". It's a game I mention to friends getting into the genre, but it's not one that I recommend when I want them to experience what many others are like. That game is one of a kind in that sense. I see your "Resident Zoomer" tag, and that's who I'm referring to when I say "I recommend a game". (I don't know if you're pre-2004 zoomer or not) If we're talking about a game to get them into the genre and see if it's what they want, DE is not it.

DE is a special case I recommend to someone if they want a CYOA type game, regardless if they show interest in the classicS.
 
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After reading much retardation concerning the venerable IE games and how modern gamers "Can't into them" it struck me that there may be a reason(s) beyond decline, lowered IQ, and general spastication.
Nah mate it's not even that. It's just zoomers don't try. I speak as one. It's literally because they don't even try and have no interest in them. Be in my friend's mind for a second: you played Fallout New Vegas, Pillars of Eternity, etc etc. You see your friend play this game
mq20qgzqvdi51.png

You don't even know what the hell you're looking at. What is the guy at the top? What is going on? Is your friend winning or losing?
See what I mean? Zoomers think these games are too complex and not even that fun, that they wouldn't even try it out themselves. This isn't even about the map system, and how some games you gotta map it out yourself!
Even the few times they did try to play older games, it would end up like this guy https://yewtu.be/watch?v=jwr5DEh4lKQ, in which they get lost and give up after one attempt.
Games went from a one on one battle of you beating a game, to you completing a game and the developers trying to milk you for money
There's fun and unfun complexity. Trying to figure out wtf is going on in a battle or walking around for 40 minutes trying to find a town because there's no in-game map is boring. Figuring out an optimal build, the potential resolutions of a quest or a particular way of killing an enemy is not. The success of games like Underrail and WOTR clearly shows there's an appetite for certain types of complexity, it's not zoomers' fault old games have the less appealing types.
This is true. While manuals and other materials were cool and fun, they had to be made separate because they wouldn't fit in floppies and that's a fact. Automapping is a positive too. On top of that, I wouldn't point at TBT as a good example of blobbers or classic rpgs. Wizardry 6 is a much better example, or hey, the SNES ports of the first trilogy. WOTR has the benefit of both having enough carrots in a stick for zoomer kids in its cast of characters but also plenty of build autism. Build autism is a key aspect of rpgs because it was picked by Diablo and later by MOBAs.

I'm sympathetic to complaints about bad graphics or bad UI, though the latter is a bit of a puzzling complaint considering the general decline that has occurred in CRPG UIs over the last two decades, not entirely attributable to consolization, though that factor certainly exacerbated the trend. Meanwhile, Dungeon Master in 1987 devised a spectacularly innovative user interface that would eventually be widely copied in CRPGs (and beyond). And there are plenty of old CRPGs that either were created with functional 2D graphics that have aged decently or at least have remakes with substantially better graphics than the original.

r0SBWJU.png
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Less sympathetic to complaints about "quality of life" aspects, such as auto-mapping, but if a newcomer to CRPGs absolutely requires them, there are still recently-released quality games in older CRPG subgenres that do offer QOL missing earlier in the subgenre. For example, the "real-time blobber" Dungeon Master-like subgenre includes Legend of Grimrock (2012) and LoG II (2014) with automapping, while the "turn-based blobber" Wizardry-like subgenre has Grimoire: Heralds of the Winged Exemplar (2017).
Dungeon Master is a thing of its own, and LoG used pretty graphics to attract a lot of people but then they realized the game wasn't that interesting beyond the initial few stages and the tag of it being "hardcore". Dungeon crawlers in general are a hard sale for western fans and even japanese ones, who adopted the genre as their own. I think Lands of Lore would be a better alternative, but people in our times could get confused by "hybrid" interfaces of the time, where devs were still figuring out how to include mouse actions in their UIs.

Then again, we're speaking from the POV of people who are older and more willing to accept some rough patches in their games here and there. Genre fans if you will. Kids have a very narrow conception of gaming, mostly because outside of Minecraft and Nintendo there aren't many games being made for kids.
 

Rincewind

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Dungeon Master is a thing of its own, and LoG used pretty graphics to attract a lot of people but then they realized the game wasn't that interesting beyond the initial few stages and the tag of it being "hardcore".
Could not disagree more with you there. It's a brilliant game. Of course, EoB is better, but that doesn't make LoG I shit.
 
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Dungeon Master is a thing of its own, and LoG used pretty graphics to attract a lot of people but then they realized the game wasn't that interesting beyond the initial few stages and the tag of it being "hardcore".
Could not disagree more with you there. It's a brilliant game. Of course, EoB is better, but that doesn't make LoG I shit.
Never said that. But LOG1 made it to several top 10 lists, while nobody bothered to come back for the second. I'm talking about the general public here, the one this thread is supposed to be about. But even then, LOG is already an 11 yo game. Almost as old as zoomers themselves.
 

Dave the Druid

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BEHOLD! The worst video ever on Fallout:

(Sorry if this has been posted here before but it's a good look at a zoomer struggling to find his way out of a paper bag while making a video essay about said bag)
 
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Old role-playing RPG games are all-around garbage. ESPECIALLY blobbers where you have to press arrow buttons 40 times in the right order just to walk from A to B in a map. Late 90s is when the first playable ones were made.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
These are built-in IQ tests, mate :smug:

We did fuck around, and we enjoyed it. Moreover, where I grew up, we played all games with zero access to the original manuals, figuring out everything by trial and error, so...
Cool story bro. I did the same thing with Underrail when I played through it. I don't mind figuring things out through trial and error, but when I have to do it through the abomination that is DOSBox using my keyboard to move around, it really saps my will to live, much less to play the game. Excuses.
Not commenting on anything else in your post except this. I disagree on this point, because Disco Elysium is nothing like any other cRPG, especially the "classics". It's a game I mention to friends getting into the genre, but it's not one that I recommend when I want them to experience what many others are like. That game is one of a kind in that sense. I see your "Resident Zoomer" tag, and that's who I'm referring to when I say "I recommend a game". (I don't know if you're pre-2004 zoomer or not) If we're talking about a game to get them into the genre and see if it's what they want, DE is not it.

DE is a special case I recommend to someone if they want a CYOA type game, regardless if they show interest in the classicS.
You literally said that it is a game you mention to friends getting into the genre, which is the point I was making. Disco Elysium is unique, and unlike any of the classic cRPGs that came before it. That being said, it has many commonalities with cRPGs, namely, its isometric view, lots of dialogue with intricate dialogue trees, doesn't hold your hand and trains the player to think for themselves, choices and consequences, skill checks, etc, etc. Combine that with its beautiful art, voice acting, twitter inspired dialogue tree system which is perfect for the modern person's brain, and a level of polish that is rare in cRPGs, and it can be an amazing introduction into the cRPG genre depending on the person.

As I mentioned above, if you don't have experience with isometric games/blobber view games, it's very easily to bounce off and/or dislike a game simply due to having such a view, even if the game is of great quality. Disco Elysium introduces people to these views, prepping them for future titles, while also minimizing the chance that someone will bounce off.
 

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