Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Editorial Rebuilding The Future: How BioWare Can Bounce Back

Mother Russia

Andhaira
Andhaira
Dumbfuck Queued
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
3,876
Codex 2013
That flyer was fun and informative, but it seems to have at least one inconsistancy I spotted: It says KOTOR sold 1 million or so.

That's not possible. KOTOR was selling incredibly well. It was praised by everyone. Ppl who weren't into rpgs but were SW fans were picking it up just because they had heard (incorrectly) the story was really good . In fact, I am confident KOTOR was one of Biowares best selling titles of all time. However, it wasn't their most profitable title because it was licensed to Lucasarts/George Lucas, who charges quite the pretty penny/% of sales as a licensing fee. Still, the popularity and quality of that title resulted in Bioware working on TOR. Not only that, ever since KOTOR was released, every Bioware game seems to follow the same formula in story, gameplay, engine, etc etc. So had the game not sold that well, they would not have followed the same (winning) formula now would they?

Still, Bioware peaked when they released BGII. KOTOR was fantastic, and the best SW game ever, even better than Jedi Knight and JK2/Jedi Academy, but BGII was the better game overall. I mean really, at 250 hours of gameplay in one playthrough, and none of that redundant gameplay...no one's ever matched that. You have to give Bioware that. They may have turned to shit, but I will never forget the months of fun and memorable gameplay the Baldurs Gate series gave me. The Infinity Engine also resulted in the fantastic IWD series and also ToEE (inspired by IE engine)

Shame Bioware had to die like this, without making BG III. Not that it matters much to the owners of Bioware, as they will be laughing all the way to the bank with their hundreds of millions earned from the EA acquisition.

TOR needs to die horribly. I love Star Wars, but MMOs need to die. In fact, the fact that players are just playing the solo story aspect of the MMO then immediately quitting is a very good thing, as it shows all publishers AND Lucasarts/Lucasfilms that fans want single player Star Wars rpgs, not MMOs. Hopefully in the future, after TOR crashes and burns, Obsidian or someone ever better is commissioned to do a proper SW partybased, turnbased (one can dream!) rpg where you can make all sorts of characters such as Sith, Jedi, Bountyhunters, Wanderers, Smugglers, Knaves, Soldiers, Battle Droids, etc etc for your party.
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,904
at 250 hours of gameplay in one playthrough
Look, I like BG2 as much as you do, but can we just cut the crap here?

A month ago, I started a new game of BG2 and finished it in two to three weeks, and that too only playing it in late evenings on weekdays. Volourn can vouch for what I am saying, since he also calls BS on this "200 hour" factoid.

How long should it really take? Let's count backwards. 30 minutes in Hell. 1.5 hours in Suldenessellar. 30 minutes up to the point where you defeat Bodhi after being asked to do so by Elhan. 2 hours or maybe 3 hours in the Underdark. 3 hours from Brynnlaw to confronting Irenicus in the asylum. So that's about 10 hours from Chapter 3 to Chapter 6 - by modern standards, astronomical, but hardly arriving any closer to the 200 hours some people claim. Maybe add 5 hours to C3-C6 time and say it is 15 hours.

Besides that, how long should it take in Chapter 2? That depends on the player. If we assume a really over-the-top estimate of 10 hours per location (which is still way too much) - that is 10 hours in docks, 10 hours in temple, 10 hours in slums, 10 hours in De'Arnise, 10 hours in Umar Hills/Temple Ruins, and so on, that is still just no more than 60 hours. Add it all together, and the least conservative estimate for BG2's length remains at 75 hours.

It took me about 35 hours to go through all of it the last time I played it.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
100,228
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It's different when you're already played through the game many times, Wyrmlord.
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,904
It's different when you're already played through the game many times, Wyrmlord.
TBH, I only played BG2 for the first time nearly a decade after it was released, making me the slowest newcomer to a game that almost everyone else played. Despite all the rookie mistakes, all the getting killed on harder fights, I just don't recall taking that long?

I guess it's all about how long a game feels than how long it actually is? Some people I know describe Deus Ex as a "long, endless game that goes on and on", and I say, "What? The savegame timer said 18 hours the first time I finished it."
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
100,228
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It's different when you're already played through the game many times, Wyrmlord.
TBH, I only played BG2 for the first time nearly a decade after it was released, making me the slowest newcomer to a game that almost everyone else played. Despite all the rookie mistakes, all the getting killed on harder fights, I just don't recall taking that long?

I guess it's all about how long a game feels than how long it actually is? Some people I know describe Deus Ex as a "long, endless game that goes on and on", and I say, "What? The savegame timer said 18 hours the first time I finished it."

It depends how much time you spend on doing things that aren't strictly necessary. In an RPG you might spend a lot of time not actually playing, but examining your party and considering how to configure and equip it. You might spend lots of time walking between shops, or looking for hidden sidequests rather than rushing towards the next plot point that you're already aware of.

In a first person game that's even more true - a thorough exploration can take a lot of time. Also, playing stealthily can be quite time consuming if you're doing that.
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,904
http://howlongtobeat.com/gamebreakdown.php?gameid=975&show=Submissions
Apparently one person actually did spend 246 hours on BG2. Possibly just left it running for long periods of time.
It says BG2 has a 23% completion rate. That is an interesting piece of data.

I myself didn't truly complete it on the first attempt ( :oops: ), so it's probably an accurate figure for most gamers across the world.

It does imply that in the most realistic outcome of the saga, the Bhaalspawn failed to ever reach his adversary, Irenicus eventually outsmarted and outmatched everyone, and Suldenessellar gets completely sacked by the drow. With Irenicus' plans having only a 23% chance of failure, he seems all the more the genius he claims to be. (Unlike the Master!)
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,904
Well, if you always slow down and always smell the roses all the time, any game can take up to an infinite amount of time.

Which makes talking about a game's length trivial.

Maybe even the KotOR games would have taken you 100-200 hours if you had a smell-the-roses approach?
 

waywardOne

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2010
Messages
2,318
in the most realistic outcome of the saga, the Bhaalspawn failed to ever reach his adversary, Irenicus eventually outsmarted and outmatched everyone, and Suldenessellar gets completely sacked by the drow.
BG3 should pick up at this point. We have found our plot.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
100,228
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Well, if you always slow down and always smell the roses all the time, any game can take up to an infinite amount of time.

Which makes talking about a game's length trivial.

Maybe even the KotOR games would have taken you 100-200 hours if you had a smell-the-roses approach?

It's not "smelling those roses" if these are actions that (potentially) enhance gameplay

(lol you can finish Morrowind in seven minutes, stop smelling the roses)
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
7,428
Location
Villainville
MCA
Wyrmlord, what was the one RPG that you really enjoyed while playing? And when I say "enjoyed", I mean as in you felt satisfaction, contention, happiness, peace, admiration etc. ie. human emotions?
 

Black

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,873,216
Oh bioware, I too hope you go back to making great rpgs like you used to. You know, such rpg goodness such as uhhhh and hmmmmmmm.
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,904
Wyrmlord, what was the one RPG that you really enjoyed while playing? And when I say "enjoyed", I mean as in you felt satisfaction, contention, happiness, peace, admiration etc. ie. human emotions?
Well, I enjoyed these games:

Legend of Grimrock
Mask of the Betrayer
Neverwinter Nights 2
Temple of Elemental Evil
Icewind Dale 2
Icewind Dale
Baldur's Gate 2
Torment
Fallout
Daggerfall
Betrayal at Krondor
Might and Magic: World of Xeen
Might and Magic III
Wizardry 6
Arena
Skyrim
Ultima Underworld

I absolutely despised these games:

 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,995
BG2 is 250 hours long.m That's bullshit. It's not even 100 hours long. Stop that nonsense.

KOTOR is not beyond awesome. It's a slightyl above average game. It also didn't start a trend. In fact, it ripped off NWN ungraciously. I think it's hilarious the same people who praise KOTOR's story and writing will turn off and call NWN's 'worst ever' when KOTOR is just a wannabe NWN.

KOTOR sold 2-3mil. NWN was BIO's most successful game BY FAR until the new age DAs and MEs came out.

Get over it. BIO - whatever form it is - still exists despite the doomsayers bragging about hwo it is gonna die all the way abck since '96.

R00fles!
 

LeStryfe79

President Spartacus
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
7,503
Location
Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Volourn, you keep failing to consider the increased development costs of Bioware's newer games. A game that sells twice as much but cost 10 times as much to make isn't exactly a quality business model.

Also, I spent 275 hours playing through BG2...Solo :smug:
 

Rahdulan

Omnibus
Patron
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
5,366
Bounce back? Bounce back to what exactly? There is no Bioware anymore, or should I say there are no more PEOPLE that comprised the Bioware that we knew back in the olden days aka there is nothing to fall back on in hopes of restoration when your entire company structure changes to a more corporate one. Now it's just another EA owned studio.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,995
"Volourn, you keep failing to consider the increased development costs of Bioware's newer games. A game that sells twice as much but cost 10 times as much to make isn't exactly a quality business model"

I doubt DA2 cost 10 times as much as BG2, you dumb fuck.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,995
ME3 did not cost 10x as much as BG2. Do the fukkin' math and use logicalness. FFS
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom