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Rincewind

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Was NTSC vs PAL (my region) a thing on computer screens too?
It definitely was for personal computers that were supposed to be hooked up to TVs. The monitors used with non-IBM PC compatible personal computers were also essentially good quality (for the time) small TV sets, therefore all PAL vs NTSC differences applied. E.g. Commodore monitors were considered to be top quality stuff in the 80s, so much that they found their way into many professional TV broadcast studios due to them being almost as good quality as the Sonys, but costing only a fraction of the price.

Monitors for IBM PC compatibles were a completely different story from the very beginning; they were optimised for business applications and had no compatibility with TV standards whatsoever. Eventually, the PCs had "won", and the PAL/NTSC differences became a thing of the past.
 

jfrisby

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/edit: Ah, I also saw some comment against aspect correction when looking around yesterday. https://forums.scummvm.org/viewtopic.php?t=14460
This was painful to read. There's a select few adventures that are native square pixel games, if they were made for Amiga first... but they would have probably been run in 4:3 anyway.
In my experience SCUMMVM sucks at aspect correction, defaults to bad settings - which is why all adventure game screenshots look awful on the internet..

Al4UJ4V.jpeg

No, MS-DOS games weren't widescreen: Tips on correcting aspect ratio


This is what they should look like

For the 320x200 adventure classics, just set DOSBox Staging manually to run in 1600x1200, which will keep pixels from being bilinear filtered.

dzCub5C.png

VS

uDJuhc4.png


Most of the images in that SCUMMVM forum thread are broken, but stuff like Steel Sky will drive you crazy if you're comparing circles in-game. The scanned artwork and sketches support aspect correction.

edit: whoops, Rincewind already responded better :obviously:
 
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kaysayva

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/edit: Ah, I also saw some comment against aspect correction when looking around yesterday. https://forums.scummvm.org/viewtopic.php?t=14460
This was painful to read. There's a select few adventures that are native square pixel games, if they were made for Amiga first... but they would have probably been run in 4:3 anyway.
In my experience SCUMMVM sucks at aspect correction, defaults to bad settings - which is why all adventure game screenshots look awful on the internet..

Al4UJ4V.jpeg

No, MS-DOS games weren't widescreen: Tips on correcting aspect ratio


This is what they should look like

For the 320x200 adventure classics, just set DOSBox Staging manually to run in 1600x1200, which will keep pixels from being bilinear filtered.

dzCub5C.png

VS

uDJuhc4.png


Most of the images in that SCUMMVM forum thread are broken, but stuff like Steel Sky will drive you crazy if you're comparing circles in-game. The scanned artwork and sketches support aspect correction.

edit: whoops, Rincewind already responded better :obviously:
or just let the dude dig up his old CRT vga monitor and skip this bs related with aspect ratio and scaling.
if anybody isnt able to get native vga from his GPU, then there is amazon's displayport to vga converter which is very good. it does support (640x400) which is the double of (320x200). so just make a custom res of (640x400) and double line DOS games that don't support higher than (320x200).
if he wana go enthusiastic about (320x200) games, then he can look for a way to hook up his pc to a 15khz tv, to display 320x200 at native res without line doubling.
 

Lucumo

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  • Get the games from the eXoDOS collection, or get the whole eXo ScummVM pack (includes all known alternative versions in existence for PC, Amiga, FM-Towns, etc.)
I recommend DOSBox Staging for the DOS ports (full disclosure: I'm a maintainer). It has Munt and FluidSynth built-in and does aspect-ratio correction by default. It's basically a successor of the long-abandoned DOSBox ECE fork, and improves on DOSBox SVN in a large number of important aspects. We have a nice Wiki too with lots of useful info.
That collection seems to just be a giant single file (/edit: Apparently only the lite one is, the full one isn't). I guess I will have to look for the specific releases separately instead.

Is it possible that an existing DOSBox version is messing with the Staging one? Because it always starts with the Z drive (which doesn't exist), despite no reason for that being the case. It also doesn't mount anything, even though I put the "+dosbox.conf" file in a separate folder and modified it accordingly. (Also, any reason it's "/home/user/dosdata/games" when in DOS it would be "\" instead?)

/edit: I guess it's because it's a "local" config file (whatever that means in the context...and it doesn't make sense, in my opinion - after all, I always want the drives mounted). So I put it in the "global" one and now it tries at least but whatever is "MSDOS2~2" (well, with "~" occupying the top) in DOS doesn't seem to work in the text file. Maybe it's because it's not an English keyboard?
/edit2: Removed the space to get rid of the "~" in the text file issue but it's just circumventing it, not solving it. Looked at different Maniac Mansion versions on the archive. There are several versions with just .img files but also one with all the files (mostly .LFL). But I guess with those "already installed" files I won't be able to tweak settings? Also, is there any way to center the video game screen in full screen? Because otherwise it just occupies the top middle space.
 
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Rincewind

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Is it possible that an existing DOSBox version is messing with the Staging one?
No. They use separate global config files to avoid issues like this: Staging uses `dosbox-staging.conf`, while DOSBox uses `dosbox.conf`.

Because it always starts with the Z drive (which doesn't exist), despite no reason for that being the case.
That's standard behaviour, and there's good reason for it: the "virtual" Z: drive contains all sorts of useful external DOS commands that are built-in by default. Just type `DIR` and see it for yourself!

I guess it's because it's a "local" config file (whatever that means in the context...and it doesn't make sense, in my opinion - after all, I always want the drives mounted). So I put it in the "global" one and now it tries at least but whatever is "MSDOS2~2" (well, with "~" occupying the top) in DOS doesn't seem to work in the text file. Maybe it's because it's not an English keyboard?
I have no idea what you're trying to do there... The global vs local config file approach is very sensible and useful, and offers a great deal of flexibility. You configure globally how you generally want to play games (e.g. always enable fullscreen, set up the paths to the Roland ROM files, etc.), then you have game specific overrides in the individual game folders.

How most people do things is that your game folder contains a C subfolder, and that subfolder only contains the game files for a single game. So you don't emulate a full computer with a big C drive full of games, that'a s bit pointless as you're only playing a single game at a time anyway... You just have game-specific C drives for each game that you mount from your local config file.

There are several versions with just .img files but also one with all the files (mostly .LFL).
The IMG files are floppy image files. They are dumps of the original floppies that you can also mount, then install the game onto the hard-drive as you would on a real computer.
The LFL files are the game specific files; that archieve contains the installed game then.

But I guess with those "already installed" files I won't be able to tweak settings?
For most DOS games you can tweak the settings post-installation, e.g. change graphics or sound settings. You still need to find out how to do that, e.g. for Sierra games you need to run `INSTALL.EXE` to change the settings (the name is misleading, it's not only used for installing the game, but also to change the settings post-install), in some games the setup utility is called `SETUP.EXE` or `SETSOUND.EXE` or something else, then in some other games you need to use some command line parameters or edit a few config files.

Also, is there any way to center the video game screen in full screen? Because otherwise it just occupies the top middle space.
It's centered by default; in fact, you cannot have the graphics displayed non-centered. But when these games start, they don't display the UI that occupies the bottom third of the screen.

---

Anyway, this is the reason why we need a good manual for the project... It can be difficult and overwhelming for people who did not grow up with DOS to find out all this information. In any case, I won't be able to educate you on all the little details in a few forum posts, but I've uploaded a ZIP file with Maniac Mansion Enhanced and Zak Enhanced configured for Tandy sound and with a nice EGA shader, which is pretty much the ideal way of playing the DOS versions of these two games. That should give you a starting point for other games as well, perhaps.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SwltJV764yOglKuY3faY9l-0L8YoBWUa/view?usp=sharing

Just unzip somewhere, then you can run the games by just starting DOSBox Staging in the game folders (where the `dosbox.conf` local override config is).

In case of Maniac Mansion, you'll need to press SHIFT + M at the startup screen to enable mouse support -- don't ask, that's how that particular game works...

A few comments about the config:
  • This is the config for Maniac Mansion, and as you can see you don't need many parameters for DOSBox Staging as it has sensible defaults (as opposed to regular DOSBox).
  • I like to have the graphics displayed smaller than fullscreen, "viewport_resolution = 960x720" accomplishes that. You can remove that line for 100% fullscreen (while keeping the correct aspect-ratio).
  • I like to use a shader for EGA games that emulates single-scanline EGA monitors. You can remove the "glshader" line if you don't want that (that would emulate how EGA games look like on double-scanned VGA monitors)
[dosbox]
machine = tandy

[sdl]
fullscreen = on
viewport_resolution = 960x720

[render]
glshader = shader/crt-aperture.ega-lores

[autoexec]
mount C "C"
c:
MANIAC
exit

This is the EGA shader in action at 960x720:

STC0xPP.png


LFIHuRA.png
 

Rincewind

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Or read the relevant section of my prestigious article
That's a lot of information, wow. Do you have an ETA on PC-focused article? I'd be super interested in reading it!
Probably in a month or two. I'm planning to do the second part about IBM PC compatibles after DOSBox Staging v0.79 has been released (probably in a month if things go as planned).
 

Lucumo

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I guess it's because it's a "local" config file (whatever that means in the context...and it doesn't make sense, in my opinion - after all, I always want the drives mounted). So I put it in the "global" one and now it tries at least but whatever is "MSDOS2~2" (well, with "~" occupying the top) in DOS doesn't seem to work in the text file. Maybe it's because it's not an English keyboard?
I have no idea what you're trying to do there... The global vs local config file approach is very sensible and useful, and offers a great deal of flexibility. You configure globally how you generally want to play games (e.g. always enable fullscreen, set up the paths to the Roland ROM files, etc.), then you have game specific overrides in the individual game folders.

How most people do things is that your game folder contains a C subfolder, and that subfolder only contains the game files for a single game. So you don't emulate a full computer with a big C drive full of games, that'a s bit pointless as you're only playing a single game at a time anyway... You just have game-specific C drives for each game that you mount from your local config file.

There are several versions with just .img files but also one with all the files (mostly .LFL).
The IMG files are floppy image files. They are dumps of the original floppies that you can also mount, then install the game onto the hard-drive as you would on a real computer.
The LFL files are the game specific files; that archieve contains the installed game then.

But I guess with those "already installed" files I won't be able to tweak settings?
For most DOS games you can tweak the settings post-installation, e.g. change graphics or sound settings. You still need to find out how to do that, e.g. for Sierra games you need to run `INSTALL.EXE` to change the settings (the name is misleading, it's not only used for installing the game, but also to change the settings post-install), in some games the setup utility is called `SETUP.EXE` or `SETSOUND.EXE` or something else, then in some other games you need to use some command line parameters or edit a few config files.

Also, is there any way to center the video game screen in full screen? Because otherwise it just occupies the top middle space.
It's centered by default; in fact, you cannot have the graphics displayed non-centered. But when these games start, they don't display the UI that occupies the bottom third of the screen.

---

Anyway, this is the reason why we need a good manual for the project... It can be difficult and overwhelming for people who did not grow up with DOS to find out all this information. In any case, I won't be able to educate you on all the little details in a few forum posts, but I've uploaded a ZIP file with Maniac Mansion Enhanced and Zak Enhanced configured for Tandy sound and with a nice EGA shader, which is pretty much the ideal way of playing the DOS versions of these two games. That should give you a starting point for other games as well, perhaps.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SwltJV764yOglKuY3faY9l-0L8YoBWUa/view?usp=sharing

Just unzip somewhere, then you can run the games by just starting DOSBox Staging in the game folders (where the `dosbox.conf` local override config is).

In case of Maniac Mansion, you'll need to press SHIFT + M at the startup screen to enable mouse support -- don't ask, that's how that particular game works...

A few comments about the config:
  • This is the config for Maniac Mansion, and as you can see you don't need many parameters for DOSBox Staging as it has sensible defaults (as opposed to regular DOSBox).
  • I like to have the graphics displayed smaller than fullscreen, "viewport_resolution = 960x720" accomplishes that. You can remove that line for 100% fullscreen (while keeping the correct aspect-ratio).
  • I like to use a shader for EGA games that emulates single-scanline EGA monitors. You can remove the "glshader" line if you don't want that (that would emulate how EGA games look like on double-scanned VGA monitors)
[dosbox]
machine = tandy

[sdl]
fullscreen = on
viewport_resolution = 960x720

[render]
glshader = shader/crt-aperture.ega-lores

[autoexec]
mount C "C"
c:
MANIAC
exit

This is the EGA shader in action at 960x720:

STC0xPP.png


LFIHuRA.png
The issue here is that when I start Staging, it only does the global config stuff, nothing more. So it makes sense to mount the drives there like I want them to. As for the autoexec mount, it's supposed to do it but since the folder where my games etc are in was named "MS DOS2", it needed something to address the space in the name. In DOSBox, that's "~" but I have no clue how to do that in the autoexec part in the text file as the "~" doesn't work there like it does in DOSBox.

Why don't I just have a subfolder with the name of the game? (Also, I don't do anything C.) My mounted folder for games, isos and utilities are W, X and Y and they all come from F where the DOS environment (how it's in the wiki) is deep inside several subfolders.

So I downloaded the 500+GB eXoDOS collection and at least there, Maniac Mansion is also already the installed files, rather than the image...which can be problematic. Looking at the prefs file that is already there, it says:

HERC OFF
TANDY OFF
CGA OFF
EGA ON
MCGA OFF
VGA OFF

COMPOSITE OFF

JOYSTICK OFF
MOUSE ON

TEXT_RATE 3
Which is not ideal since I want Tandy sound, after all. So I would have to turn that on? Or would be the local config file that you provided take care of that?

Yeah, centered at the top. But I would rather have it centered in the middle, with a nice black ring around it. I would have provided a screenshot but the normal screenshot button only provided a completely black screen in fullscreen, same when I tried it via Irfanview.

I tend to be good with software, as it's logical and often also intuitive. However, the wiki doesn't really provide help. Like, how would Staging use the "+dosbox.conf" file? Or any other local config file for that matter? The wiki says:

"Now let's run our DOS console to install Command & Conquer. To do so, simply type in the following command:

GNU/Linux:

$ ./home/user/dosbin/dosbox -conf /home/user/dosdata/+dosbox.conf"

But I'm a scrubby Windows user. So the command doesn't help me at all. The same with the local config file for specific games:

"$ ./home/user/dosbin/dosbox -conf /home/user/dosdata/comcon.conf"

If you would tell me how to start DOSBox Staging with the local config files as a Windows user, that would already help a lot.

Thanks. It's weird that your installed MM version has no "prefs" file. Also, where to put the shader folder? And isn't it weird that you mount it like that (does that even work without the full path)? I'm going off the DOSBox environment as it's on the Wiki here.

134336534-ac03d0b4-9eff-4132-8747-12de4693dada.png


So wouldn't it have to mount "games" here and then whatever subfolder Maniac Mansion is in (would be "Maniac Mansion" in my case, rather than "C" which you provided).

/edit: By the way, in the version of Maniac Mansion which I got from the archive yesterday, the mouse works out of the box somehow and there is no need to press "SHIFT + M".
 
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Rincewind

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Yeah, centered at the top. But I would rather have it centered in the middle, with a nice black ring around it. I would have provided a screenshot but the normal screenshot button only provided a completely black screen in fullscreen, same when I tried it via Irfanview.
Yeah, that's a known limitation. You can create screenshots with CTRL + F5 in fullscreen mode (but that captures the raw framebuffer), or enter windowed mode if you want to use normal screenshot functionality built into the OS.

I tend to be good with software, as it's logical and often also intuitive. However, the wiki doesn't really provide help. Like, how would Staging use the "+dosbox.conf" file? Or any other local config file for that matter? The wiki says:
Well, that was written by someone who is a Linux user, apparently...

If you would tell me how to start DOSBox Staging with the local config files as a Windows user, that would already help a lot.
DOSBox loads the local config file named "dosbox.conf" from the current working directory it's started from. That's it.

Thanks. It's weird that your installed MM version has no "prefs" file. Also, where to put the shader folder? And isn't it weird that you mount it like that (does that even work without the full path)? I'm going off the DOSBox environment as it's on the Wiki here.
Man, you're way overcomplicating things... Zak has the prefs file, MM doesn't, it's that simple.

Why don't you just download the ZIP file linked in my above post, then do the following:

1. Unzip it somewhere, e.g. D:\Games
2. Make sure DOSBox Staging is in your path
3. Open CMD prompt, CD into the the Zak or MM dir inside you D:\Games dir
4. Simply start game by running the "dosbox" command, that's it. Or if you don't have it in your path, then with "C:\<PATH_TO_DOSBOX>\DOSBOX.EXE"

The shader is in the game folder in "shader", it's referenced by the local config file.

I tried to make this as simple as possible for you, but if you're having so much trouble, you're really better off with ScummVM or just the standard eXoDOS Lite installer that does all this configuration for you. I don't want to be condescending, but I don't have more time to support you with this.
 

Lucumo

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Yeah, that's a known limitation. You can create screenshots with CTRL + F5 in fullscreen mode (but that captures the raw framebuffer), or enter windowed mode if you want to use normal screenshot functionality built into the OS.

Well, that was written by someone who is a Linux user, apparently...

If you would tell me how to start DOSBox Staging with the local config files as a Windows user, that would already help a lot.
DOSBox loads the local config file named "dosbox.conf" from the current working directory it's started from. That's it.

Thanks. It's weird that your installed MM version has no "prefs" file. Also, where to put the shader folder? And isn't it weird that you mount it like that (does that even work without the full path)? I'm going off the DOSBox environment as it's on the Wiki here.
Man, you're way overcomplicating things... Zak has the prefs file, MM doesn't, it's that simple.

Why don't you just download the ZIP file linked in my above post, then do the following:

1. Unzip it somewhere, e.g. D:\Games
2. Make sure DOSBox Staging is in your path
3. Open CMD prompt, CD into the the Zak or MM dir inside you D:\Games dir
4. Simply start game by running the "dosbox" command, that's it. Or if you don't have it in your path, then with "C:\<PATH_TO_DOSBOX>\DOSBOX.EXE"

The shader is in the game folder in "shader", it's referenced by the local config file.

I tried to make this as simple as possible for you, but if you're having so much trouble, you're really better off with ScummVM or just the standard eXoDOS Lite installer that does all this configuration for you. I don't want to be condescending, but I don't have more time to support you with this.
CTRL + F5 doesn't work. And windowed mode would be pointless if I want to show off a fullscreen screenshot.

Which possibly makes the whole Wiki useless then, as I can't know what is supposed to work for my Windows and what isn't.

See, I don't know if it's some language barrier but what you say appears to go against what's written in the wiki. If it "loads the local config file named "dosbox.conf" from the current working directory it's started from", then it should be in the same folder, right?
The location where to install the binary is up to you. Yet the rule is to not place it inside the DOS environment created above but in a separate location (eg. C:\DOSBIN or /home/user/dosbin).
So for me, DOSBox is "installed" (more like unpacked) in "F:\bla\bla\bla\MS-DOS\DOSBox Staging" while the "DOS Environment" (the one in the screenshot, including the "+dosbox.conf" file) is in "F:\bla\bla\bla\MS-DOS2", just like how it's supposed to be according to the wiki. However, obviously, this doesn't make sense as when I want to install something and it would need to load the "+dosbox.conf", DOSBox Staging wouldn't know how to load it. And since it's not Linux, I can't just tell it to via the commands listed there.

If I do it like you say and put the whole DOSBox Staging files into the "Maniac Mansion Enhanced" folder from your archive, next to the "dosbox.conf" file, it does work. It also works if I go to the folder via cmd and then from there start dosbox in the separate branch (interestingly enough, spaces in folder names work perfectly when when using "cd" but if I want to start some .exe or whatever, it doesn't work the same way. That sure is consistent...
However, obviously this is a lot of writing and cmd stuff, so I just looked whether a .bat file would work and yeah, it works without issue. So now I only need one click to load DOSBox Staging with the local config file and start the game (and I can shortcut it to wherever for easy access).

So thanks, what you wrote did help me. Well, makes sense that following the wiki would cause trouble. Something simple like: "DOSBox loads the local config file named "dosbox.conf" from the current working directory it's started from." was basically all that would have been needed.
 

negator2vc

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Then he goes and posts this to troll some more :lol: ......


And people (especially on social media) still believe
he is the victim and not the instigator for the whole situation!

The funny thing is that even this "fan art" is way better that his game's art.
I wonder if his trolling of actual fans cause the game to flop will he ever admit his part?
 

Rincewind

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Which possibly makes the whole Wiki useless then, as I can't know what is supposed to work for my Windows and what isn't.

Most information there is OS independent and quite useful, and that guide you tried to follow should also work if you had adjusted the paths slighlty to the Windows style.

If I do it like you say and put the whole DOSBox Staging files into the "Maniac Mansion Enhanced" folder from your archive, next to the "dosbox.conf" file, it does work.
However, obviously this is a lot of writing and cmd stuff, so I just looked whether a .bat file would work and yeah, it works without issue. So now I only need one click to load DOSBox Staging with the local config file and start the game (and I can shortcut it to wherever for easy access).
So thanks, what you wrote did help me.
Glad you got it working for you in the end. I personally use the .bat file approach as well -- one .bat file in every game folder that launches DOSBox using the local config.

Well, makes sense that following the wiki would cause trouble. Something simple like: "DOSBox loads the local config file named "dosbox.conf" from the current working directory it's started from." was basically all that would have been needed.
I can tell you I'm not a fan of that particular guide either; it's just too overcomplicated, especially for beginners, and in the end it's not worth it doing it that way. But you gotta realise it's a volunteer-driven project, so I guess we should be glad that someone just put together any kind of guide. In any case, I'll make sure we'll do better in the upcoming official user manual and use my preferred much simpler setup.
 

Tramboi

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This said, one of the meta points (IMO) is that most Scumm games are like Infocom games, not too tightly linked to a platform, so there's no real need reaching for ultimate emulation accuracy.
For the love of the game at least, you might be in love with the platform, though :)
But then the choice is easy, use the best c64/Amiga/ST/DOS emulator.
 
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Rincewind

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Well, that's the thing, maybe Ron had zero input to the direction of the graphics for the first two Monkey Island games. We don't know for absolute certainty, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

Just look at the credits for MM1, it's a bit of a stretch to call it "his game". Yes, the original concept was his, but according to the credits, he did 33% of the coding, 33% of the writing, and 0% of the art and the music. So effectively he was one (important) member in a team of 20-30. But most likely it wasn't his decision to approve the art.

https://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/secret-of-monkey-island/credits

Oh, and Falksi mentioned he couldn't believe this is the same guy who came up with the sword fighting insults. Turns out that was someone else entirely (check first and last lines in his Game Credits section).
 
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