Return To Monkey Island - MI2 sequel from Ron Gilbert

[Outlander]

There already is Maniac Mansion Deluxe.

Maniac Mansion was such a good game! I was totally blown away by it. Sure, fancier stuff was released afterward such as MI, Beneath a Steel Sky, Gabriel Knight, Last Crusade, etc... But none of those offered multiple character selection that in turn affected the way you could progress in the game, with multiple solutions to puzzles and even dead-ends. Very RPG-like adventure. The only other classic adventure that did something similar was Fate of Atlantis but it was limited to a 'choose 1 path out of 3' early in the game.

Of course Sierra had King Quest series but sadly I wasn't exposed to those at the time.

 

[Lucumo]

Somewhat off-topic: Due to all the talking about the good old days, I want to play through the Lucasfilm/LucasArts games (mostly for the first time). Are there any general or specific recommendations on how to play them (platform, versions, settings)? IIRC, ScummVM eventually became more popular than DOSBox, so it would be via that?

 

[kaysayva]

Somewhat off-topic: Due to all the talking about the good old days, I want to play through the Lucasfilm/LucasArts games (mostly for the first time). Are there any general or specific recommendations on how to play them (platform, versions, settings)? IIRC, ScummVM eventually became more popular than DOSBox, so it would be via that?

sure, i got you.
it is better to contact me somehow, so i could provide explicit details.

 

[Alex]

Funny how he thinks somebody is going to fund this after Return to Monkey Island bombs.

What Could Go Wrong

That doesn't actually sound so bad. Except that the 50% new puzzles will probably be no-brainers that will take the place of the harder ones... and the new playable character will probably be a genderqueer handicapped muslim... and the art style will probably look even worse than the one they are using for MI...

 

[negator2vc]

Somewhat off-topic: Due to all the talking about the good old days, I want to play through the Lucasfilm/LucasArts games (mostly for the first time). Are there any general or specific recommendations on how to play them (platform, versions, settings)? IIRC, ScummVM eventually became more popular than DOSBox, so it would be via that?

Do you have them? I ask since you said for the first time.
If not GOG is your best bet since the come prepackaged with the appropriate emulator.
Otherwise try first ScummVM since it has some bug fixes beside the native executable and then Dosbox.
For some games I suggest you try fan remakes first (the maniac mansion deluxe version is a perfect example of good quality remake very close to original)
A good quality remake that isn't well known is King's Quest 4 remake
https://www.adventuregamestudio.co....king-s-quest-iv-the-perils-of-rosella-retold/
which keep the original graphics but remove dead ends (there is an option if you are a purist)

 

[Ludwig von Eisenthal]

Maniac Mansion was such a good game! I was totally blown away by it. Sure, fancier stuff was released afterward such as MI, Beneath a Steel Sky, Gabriel Knight, Last Crusade, etc... But none of those offered multiple character selection that in turn affected the way you could progress in the game, with multiple solutions to puzzles and even dead-ends. Very RPG-like adventure. The only other classic adventure that did something similar was Fate of Atlantis but it was limited to a 'choose 1 path out of 3' early in the game.

Have you tried The Castle? A quite well made game that's very much inspired by MM with multiple characters and solutions. Not just a clone or a simple fangame but a game of its own right.

 

[ghostdog]

Somewhat off-topic: Due to all the talking about the good old days, I want to play through the Lucasfilm/LucasArts games (mostly for the first time). Are there any general or specific recommendations on how to play them (platform, versions, settings)? IIRC, ScummVM eventually became more popular than DOSBox, so it would be via that?

IMO SCUMMVM is the best way to play them toady. The recreation of the engines has fixed many bugs, makes them run flawlessly and offers QoL features like subtitles and speech at the same time.

 

[jfrisby]

Somewhat off-topic: Due to all the talking about the good old days, I want to play through the Lucasfilm/LucasArts games (mostly for the first time). Are there any general or specific recommendations on how to play them (platform, versions, settings)? IIRC, ScummVM eventually became more popular than DOSBox, so it would be via that?

I'd use DOSBox ECE for the perfect-pixel aspect correction (and I think mt-32 support is easier too), if you can find versions of the games with the exe's. Or check out DREAMM the new Scumm emulator based on DOSBox that is supposedly more faithful.

 

[Naraya]

Somewhat off-topic: Due to all the talking about the good old days, I want to play through the Lucasfilm/LucasArts games (mostly for the first time). Are there any general or specific recommendations on how to play them (platform, versions, settings)? IIRC, ScummVM eventually became more popular than DOSBox, so it would be via that?

Whatever you choose, please for the love of God use a proper MT-32 emulator.
jfrisby I've never heard of DREAMM, will check it out - thanks! Sounds like its author is a megachad:

Why did you bother when we already have ScummVM?​

#1 reason? It was fun. As you might have gathered, I’m into writing emulators. Working on MAME these days is way more work and stress than fun, so I thought it was time to move on to something new.

 

[Great Deceiver]

There is nothing worth being a fan of anymore.

Thief was a fluke. Its lead designer was also lead designer on Underworld Ascendant.
Everyone you thought you loved and respected from the Sierra / LucasArts days is now a loony too.

There's always the cigar-chomping execs from back in the day. They probably deserve more respect than these fucks.

 

[Tramboi]

I don't think DREAMM is of any interest to anybody here. It's more of an emulator dev (and it's my job) pet project (and as such, it's cool) but ScummVM Quality of Life improvements trump accuracy for players, IMO.
It's not like you need cycle-accuracy for your demo there

This said, Naraya is right, configure MT-32 emulation !

 

[Great Deceiver]

Does the internal ScummVM MT32 functionality differ from MUNT?

 

[Rincewind]

Eh, King is overrated IMO.

No disagreements there. I liked "Misery", "Cujo", "Shining" and that illustrated book about werewolves, but that's about it. But I was quite young then and easily impressed.

However, the answer to these was the same as most works today ("if you don't like it, you're x-ist!").

Yeah, that's just stupid, no disagreements there either.

He still sounds like a primadonna, and I think he's overrated; after all, he was just a _single_ person working on those classic games. Although, TP turned out to be surprisingly decent.

People should be more like David Lynch (paraphrasing):

Reporter: What do you think about the negative criticism about your movies?
D.L.: I don't read reviews.

What about people-whining-about-people-whining-about-people-whining?

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

There already is Maniac Mansion Deluxe.

There is also THIS. It's certainly vapourware that may never be finished. But they're still working on it.

 

[Rincewind]

Does the internal ScummVM MT32 functionality differ from MUNT?

No, exact same codebase. The standalone version might expose more options, but it doesn't really matter when just playing games.

Somewhat off-topic: Due to all the talking about the good old days, I want to play through the Lucasfilm/LucasArts games (mostly for the first time). Are there any general or specific recommendations on how to play them (platform, versions, settings)? IIRC, ScummVM eventually became more popular than DOSBox, so it would be via that?

• ScummVM is the most hassle free option
• PC DOS versions are generally the best
• Get the games from the eXoDOS collection, or get the whole eXo ScummVM pack (includes all known alternative versions in existence for PC, Amiga, FM-Towns, etc.)
• MT-32 soundtrack is superior in most later Lucasfilm games, but some games were composed for the Roland SC-55 (see here). For these, the easiest option is to use a good quality SoundFont with FluidSynth. Some good SoundFont recommendations.
• Make sure to always enable Aspect Ratio Correction!!!
• Stay away from the CD-ROM version of Loom -- it's vastly inferior and despised by the game's creator! About 30% of the original content had been cut!

Also, the Grim Fandango, Full Throttle and DOTT remakes are very decent. But stay away from the Monkey Island remakes at all costs.

• Labyrinth -- C64 (use cartridge conversion)
• Maniac Mansion -- C64 (use cartridge conversion; alternatively Amiga or DOS)
• Zak McKracken -- C64 (use cartridge conversion; then replay the 256-colour FM-Towns version; alternatively Amiga or DOS)
• Indy3 -- PC, EGA, Adlib (then replay VGA version)
• Indy4 -- PC CD-ROM, VGA, MT-32
• Loom -- PC Floppy, EGA, MT-32 (maybe replay VGA / CD-ROM version, but only for a second time!)
• Monkey Island 1 -- PC, EGA, Adlib / PC, VGA, MT-32 / Amiga (they're all good options and worth a playthrough)
• Monkey Island 2 -- PC, VGA, Adlib / MT-32 (Amiga version might be worth a playthrough if you're really into Amiga music)
• DOTT -- PC CD-ROM, VGA, SC-55
• Sam & Max -- PC CD-ROM, VGA, SC-55
• Full Throttle - PC CD-ROM, VGA
• The Dig -- PC CD-ROM, VGA
• Grim Fandango -- PC CD-ROM, SVGA (running on PCem, of course )

I recommend DOSBox Staging for the DOS ports (full disclosure: I'm a maintainer). It has Munt and FluidSynth built-in and does aspect-ratio correction by default. It's basically a successor of the long-abandoned DOSBox ECE fork, and improves on DOSBox SVN in a large number of important aspects. We have a nice Wiki too with lots of useful info.

For the best Roland SC-55 emulation, you should use the Roland Sound Canvas VA VST plugin as explained here:

 

[Great Deceiver]

I can vouch for Sound Canvas VA, it's pretty good.

 

[Outlander]

Maniac Mansion was such a good game! I was totally blown away by it. Sure, fancier stuff was released afterward such as MI, Beneath a Steel Sky, Gabriel Knight, Last Crusade, etc... But none of those offered multiple character selection that in turn affected the way you could progress in the game, with multiple solutions to puzzles and even dead-ends. Very RPG-like adventure. The only other classic adventure that did something similar was Fate of Atlantis but it was limited to a 'choose 1 path out of 3' early in the game.

Have you tried The Castle? A quite well made game that's very much inspired by MM with multiple characters and solutions. Not just a clone or a simple fangame but a game of its own right.

Been sitting in my wishlist for a while, guess it's time to pull the trigger on it.

 

[Lucumo]

Do you have them? I ask since you said for the first time.
If not GOG is your best bet since the come prepackaged with the appropriate emulator.
Otherwise try first ScummVM since it has some bug fixes beside the native executable and then Dosbox.
For some games I suggest you try fan remakes first (the maniac mansion deluxe version is a perfect example of good quality remake very close to original)
A good quality remake that isn't well known is King's Quest 4 remake
https://www.adventuregamestudio.co....king-s-quest-iv-the-perils-of-rosella-retold/
which keep the original graphics but remove dead ends (there is an option if you are a purist)

Yeah, I got some of them off GOG when I still bought games there.
I'm pretty much a purist that accepts using emulators (when necessary) and at most maybe bug fixes.

Whatever you choose, please for the love of God use a proper MT-32 emulator.

This said, Naraya is right, configure MT-32 emulation !

You guys sure are insistent about that. To be honest, I don't really care about the music difference when it comes to cards. I can appreciate/enjoy all the different kinds, heck, even a good PC speaker tune (and I'm definitely too young for any kind of nostalgia).

IMO SCUMMVM is the best way to play them toady. The recreation of the engines has fixed many bugs, makes them run flawlessly and offers QoL features like subtitles and speech at the same time.

• ScummVM is the most hassle free option
• PC DOS versions are generally the best
• Get the games from the eXoDOS collection, or get the whole eXo ScummVM pack (includes all known alternative versions in existence for PC, Amiga, FM-Towns, etc.)
• MT-32 soundtrack is superior in most later Lucasfilm games, but some games were composed for the Roland SC-55 (see here). For these, the easiest option is to use a good quality SoundFont with FluidSynth. Some good SoundFont recommendations.
• Make sure to always enable Aspect Ratio Correction!!!
• Stay away from the CD-ROM version of Loom -- it's vastly inferior and despised by the game's creator! About 30% of the original content had been cut!

Also, the Grim Fandango, Full Throttle and DOTT remakes are very decent. But stay away from the Monkey Island remakes at all costs.

• Labyrinth -- C64 (use cartridge conversion)
• Maniac Mansion -- C64 (use cartridge conversion; alternatively Amiga or DOS)
• Zak McKracken -- C64 (use cartridge conversion; then replay the 256-colour FM-Towns version; alternatively Amiga or DOS)
• Indy3 -- PC, EGA, Adlib (then replay VGA version)
• Indy4 -- PC CD-ROM, VGA, MT-32
• Loom -- PC Floppy, EGA, MT-32 (maybe replay VGA / CD-ROM version, but only for a second time!)
• Monkey Island 1 -- PC, EGA, Adlib / PC, VGA, MT-32 / Amiga (they're all good options and worth a playthrough)
• Monkey Island 2 -- PC, VGA, Adlib / MT-32 (Amiga version might be worth a playthrough if you're really into Amiga music)
• DOTT -- PC CD-ROM, VGA, SC-55
• Sam & Max -- PC CD-ROM, VGA, SC-55
• Full Throttle - PC CD-ROM, VGA
• The Dig -- PC CD-ROM, VGA
• Grim Fandango -- PC CD-ROM, SVGA (running on PCem, of course )

I recommend DOSBox Staging for the DOS ports (full disclosure: I'm a maintainer). It has Munt and FluidSynth built-in and does aspect-ratio correction by default. It's basically a successor of the long-abandoned DOSBox ECE fork, and improves on DOSBox SVN in a large number of important aspects. We have a nice Wiki too with lots of useful info.

For the best Roland SC-55 emulation, you should use the Roland Sound Canvas VA VST plugin as explained here:

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. So, I guess while others like ghostdog said SCUMMVM is the best, it's only the best when taking ease of use into account? What do you mean with "DOS ports" though? Aren't all the ones you recommended playing on DOS games that got released on DOS first and as such not ports? The C64 games I would have to play on an C64 emulator then, I guess (the second and third link lead to some other game by the way)? Though, why the C64 version of Zak McKracken when the DOS version got released at the same time? Is it inferior? Is there any reason to play Labyrinth? It usually gets put aside/excluded when people talk about Lucasfilm/-Arts adventure games.

(Man, quoting in this new forum has become so annoying and broken.)

/edit: Ah, I also saw some comment against aspect correction when looking around yesterday. https://forums.scummvm.org/viewtopic.php?t=14460

 

[Naraya]

To be honest, I don't really care about the music difference when it comes to cards. I can appreciate/enjoy all the different kinds, heck, even a good PC speaker tune (and I'm definitely too young for any kind of nostalgia).

Well, I've originally played these games in early 90s using a mix of PC Speaker / Adlib (when I finally managed to save up enough money) and I liked it, but when I discovered how they sound on MT32 I was simply blown away. You should really try it!

 

[Lucumo]

Well, I've originally played these games in early 90s using a mix of PC Speaker / Adlib (when I finally managed to save up enough money) and I liked it, but when I discovered how they sound on MT32 I was simply blown away. You should really try it!

Oh, I will use it. Just thought that it was interesting that you guys were so insistent on it. I've heard different sound versions for games before and I generally like them all (unless one got really messed up). It's just different flavors to me, like chocolate and strawberry.

 

[Rincewind]

What do you mean with "DOS ports" though?

I use the term "port" loosely, not taking into account whether it's an original release or not.

The C64 games I would have to play on an C64 emulator then, I guess (the second and third link lead to some other game by the way)?

Yes, I recommend VICE. Fixed the links (left off the last digit from the link somehow).

Though, why the C64 version of Zak McKracken when the DOS version got released at the same time?

Because that's my prestigious recommendation to you, having grown up with the C64Remember, this is hard mode!
It's one of the most iconic adventure games on the C64, along with MM. If you don't care about the C64 or the idiosyncracies of the platform, just play the Amiga or DOS versions.

Is there any reason to play Labyrinth?

It's the MM precursor and the first Lucasfilm adventure game, so I'd say yes, it belongs to the hardcore list.

Ah, I also saw some comment against aspect correction when looking around yesterday. https://forums.scummvm.org/viewtopic.php?t=14460

I remember seeing that thread before, and half the people who commented on it are idiots (who think aspect-ratio correction is not needed for 320x200 games, or that it's subjective -- both claims are patently wrong).

Short version: you need aspect-ratio correction for every single 320x200 DOS game ever released, full stop, no ifs, no buts! This is all you need to know, and it's 100% correct information, trust me. If you're interested in the details, there's plenty of YouTube videos about the subject. Or read the relevant section of my prestigious article, although I'm talking about the situation on the Amiga there, which a lot more nuanced and might confuse you even more...

And yes, in case you're wondering, 99% of screenshots on MobyGames and many other websites are in the wrong aspect ratio. The explanation is that emulators in the past did not implement this feature, or it was off by default, and that people are just resistant to education in general...

 

[Darkozric]

Though, why the C64 version of Zak McKracken when the DOS version got released at the same time?

The Zak McKracken C64 recommendation is mostly a nostalgia recommendation. I suggest the DOS/Amiga versions.
You don't want to miss this beauty.

Damn, this conversation makes me want to play Zak again, it's been a long time...

 

[Nifft Batuff]

you need aspect-ratio correction for every single 320x200 DOS game ever released,

There are interesting exceptions however. For example Frontier - Elite 2 (1993). The game uses 3D graphics in VGA 320x200. The 3D engine is capable to render 3D spherical objects. If you use aspect correction, all the spherical 3D objects became vertically stretched ovoidal, even when clearly are not intended to be (e.g. planets).

w/ aspect correction:

w/o aspect correction:

I think that this is a tradeoff that has been done in 1993. In order to squeeze the most from the CPUs, the specific algorithms used in the engine are optimized for square pixel rendering.

 

[Rincewind]

The Zak McKracken C64 recommendation is mostly a nostalgia recommendation. I suggest the DOS/Amiga versions.
You don't want to miss this beauty.

Yeah, the "hard mode" list is basically my personal list of what I consider best. Many of the choices for the earlier games are nostalgia based, I don't deny it.

Those screenshots are from the 256-colour FM-Towns version, though, which I have incidentally recommended. The Amiga version has the exact same graphics as the EGA DOS version (pixel-by-pixel); they just slapped on some slight palette modifications as an attempt to make the colours a bit more pleasing.

There are interesting exceptions however. For example Frontier - Elite 2 (1993). The game uses 3D graphics in VGA 320x200. The 3D engine is capable to render 3D spherical objects. If you use aspect correction, all the spherical 3D objects became vertically stretched ovoidal, even when clearly are not intended to be (e.g. planets).

That's interesting, indeed. I recall the original PC Elite having a similar problem with circles. I'd argue, however, that everbody back in the day experienced 320x200 graphics fully stretched to the 4:3 aspect ratio screen, hence that's the period-correct way of playing these games. But yeah, in this specific case one might say fuck that, I just wanna have round planets. Sure, that's one valid scenario (and assuming that the rest of the game, e.g. hand-drawn parts not appearing squashed without AR correction).

For young players, however, I need to stress that there are probably only a handful of such games like Elite; for the vast majority of the DOS catalogue, especially for games where the art was hand-drawn by the artists, aspect-ratio correction is a must. The artists saw the vertically slightly stretched (aspect-ratio corrected) image on their monitors when producing the graphics, hence by not using aspect-ratio correction you'd effectively squash the graphics vertically -- certainly not what the artist intended! That's why some people think Guybrush was a little stumpy fella; no, he is not if you're using proper aspect-ratio correction!

 

[Lucumo]

Yes, I recommend VICE. Fixed the links (left off the last digit from the link somehow).

Because that's my prestigious recommendation to you, having grown up with the C64Remember, this is hard mode!
It's one of the most iconic adventure games on the C64, along with MM. If you don't care about the C64 or the idiosyncracies of the platform, just play the Amiga or DOS versions.

I remember seeing that thread before, and half the people who commented on it are idiots (who think aspect-ratio correction is not needed for 320x200 games, or that it's subjective -- both claims are patently wrong).

Short version: you need aspect-ratio correction for every single 320x200 DOS game ever released, full stop, no ifs, no buts! This is all you need to know, and it's 100% correct information, trust me. If you're interested in the details, there's plenty of YouTube videos about the subject. Or read the relevant section of my prestigious article, although I'm talking about the situation on the Amiga there, which a lot more nuanced and might confuse you even more...

And yes, in case you're wondering, 99% of screenshots on MobyGames and many other websites are in the wrong aspect ratio. The explanation is that emulators in the past did not implement this feature, or it was off by default, and that people are just resistant to education in general...

Thank you.

Was NTSC vs PAL (my region) a thing on computer screens too? I always thought it just mattered for TV screens. Very nice blog post by the way.

Don't really use MobyGames. Too many games missing and screenshots can have pretty idiotic captions (no idea why that is even a thing).