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Return To Monkey Island - MI2 sequel from Ron Gilbert

negator2vc

Scholar
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341
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Greece
The problem with normies it's that the moment the see the next cat game ;-) they move on to that.
I am not sure that the game has any staying power and considering the crap meta ending I don't think the word of mouth
will help it in the next few weeks (after all it's only a couple of days since it was released).
Also the game appear to be quite a bit more expensive than the average indie game and this don't even include
the IP cost (the cost of which was never disclosed).

One thing I am pretty sure. Unlike it older siblings we won't find it in future top 10 adventure games lists.
 

Brancaleone

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They picked the right art style, the right humor, and the right tone for the market.
You say that as if it were the result of some skillful choice, rather than just following those same blueprints according to which 99% of the pap that is churned out is made nowadays.
 

Alienman

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Im more and more convinced that trying to figure out how popular something is by Twitter outrage and YouTube ratios is a fools errand.
Normies don't care about that stuff. They just want to play things. Outrage has become a marketing tool as much the trailers themselves. As we have moved away from websites and traditional advertising and towards social media advertising, it's really a case of 'if it bleeds it leads'.
Normies like shit, what else is new.
 

Keshik

Arcane
Joined
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2,227
Did about maybe half of the first part, isn't terrible. Not difficult, seems like just fetch quests so far. Art style is ugly, but other than the close ups I have dealt with it, hah.

Nothing all that funny, mostly callbacks so far - I assume it's just going to be like that on Melee. Nitpicky perhaps, but the voice acting for Guybrush seems odd, Elaine's as well (the voice actress is old though, so maybe unfair). LeChuck's new voice isn't that great or menacing in the clip I saw him. Nice to see he's like my old boss though.
 
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Brancaleone

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Nothing all that funny, mostly callbacks so far
It's basically: waffle waffle - memberberry - waffle - akward moment - waffle - memberberry - waffle waffle waffle - cringe moment - waffle - memberberry - waffle waffle (... ad libitum ...)
 

zeitgeist

Magister
Joined
Aug 12, 2010
Messages
1,444
The only way to save the things you loved in games from the past is to support the games you love that have those elements
Explain this logic please. I'm sure a lot of people in this thread "supported" the original Monkey Island games, for example. Where did that get us?

Why would anyone pay for a game anymore, when it's not even the slightest guarantee that the sequel will bear any resemblance to it whatsoever?
 

Alex

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Messages
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São Paulo - Brasil
Adventure games have been dead for quite a while. It was nice that we got Thinbleweed Park, but it clearly was not a prelude to a comeback.

Maybe we will get more of them in a saner time.
 
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Hellion

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Adventure games have been "dying" since the early 2000s but as far as the sheer amount of current new releases in the genre is concerned they are still very much alive. That doesn't say anything about the actual quality of these releases, of course, but among the 20-30 noteworthy adventure games released each month at least a couple of them are above average or even good.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Adventure games have been dead for quite a while. It was nice that we got Thinbleweed Park, but it clearly was not a prelude to a comeback.

Maybe we will get more of them in a saber time.

Just because the mainstream completely ignores their existence doesn't mean they don't exist.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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It is self-deception to think that 2000 dislike votes on YouTube indicates organic widespread dislike but 16,000 simultaneous Steam players and 1200+ reviews from Steam purchases is “AstroTurf.”

As for the question what supporting Monkey Island got players, the answer is LeChuck’s Revenge, Curse of Monkey Island, Escape from Money Island, Tales of Monkey Island, two remasters, and a slew of adventures imitating its irreverent tone and style. “Okay but I didn’t like all of those.” If you liked *any* of them then you benefited from the support players gave MI.

Finally, it’s also self-deception to say Gilbert didn’t make the key choices as to style. We were all prepared to blame him for those choices, and we all rebuked him for affirmatively moving the game off its natural path. He may not have invented these things, but he selected them, for worse and better.

Sometimes reality disabuses; sometimes it outright abuses on top of that. It’s no good to answer back that reality isn’t real. Denial isn’t a predicate for defiance, and bring a jerk doesn’t usually change things for the better.

Anyway, no need to belabor things further.
 

Viata

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Explain this logic please. I'm sure a lot of people in this thread "supported" the original Monkey Island games, for example. Where did that get us?
Daily reminder: just because you supported some dev X by buying their game it doesn't mean dev X is not going to say "fuck you" to you by making some shitty game trying to please a bigger audience.
 

Alienman

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
It's no surprise to me that the game got positive reivews this quickly. Just check the response on Gilberts controversial posts on his blog. Sycophants en masse, which is directly translated to positive reviews on Steam after only a few minutes to an hour of playtime - to show the "haters" what is up. You can check for yourself on Steam too, since you can put in a minimum and a maximum of hours played for reviews.

Lolattime.jpg


Legit, I'm sure.
 

Brancaleone

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Finally, it’s also self-deception to say Gilbert didn’t make the key choices as to style. We were all prepared to blame him for those choices, and we all rebuked him for affirmatively moving the game off its natural path. He may not have invented these things, but he selected them, for worse and better.
Don't be disingenous, who is saying he didn't? He made (or at least took responsibility for) the choice of following the same omnipresent protocol that shapes 99% of the crap we have today.

But what you said is: "They picked the right art style, the right humor, and the right tone for the market."

So, since apparently it's all about making "the right choices", why don't you make those same right choices and see how you fare "in the market" without the Disney marketing juggernaut or the MI nostalgia factor?

C'mon, there's millions to be made out there! Just pick the same "right art style", the same "right humor", and the same "right tone"!
 
Joined
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Messages
188
Im more and more convinced that trying to figure out how popular something is by Twitter outrage and YouTube ratios is a fools errand.
Normies don't care about that stuff. They just want to play things. Outrage has become a marketing tool as much the trailers themselves. As we have moved away from websites and traditional advertising and towards social media advertising, it's really a case of 'if it bleeds it leads'.
You shan't easily gauge anything in this fashion, comrade. In the interest of furthering the topic of conversation in a direction more productive I'll include in this reply a short writeup regarding this phenomenon in more general terms. Before that however I'd like to steer debate over the success and failures, as well as the organic or artificial quality of such, into more fruitful waters. The reason anyone pays any attention to this latest travesty of Ron Gilber's is because the original games were widespread during a time when the medium of interactive computer entertainment was a much smaller pond and its consumers paid much more attention to a canon and narrative presented by physical video game magazines. Monkey Island was ported to a great deal of systems, presented a casual and forgiving challenge to the young folks it targeted. Being a product of LucasArts with its great reach this then has become iconic to the time period of its release. This is why when Known Brand™ enters the scene these days, just in time to cash in on the nostalgia of not just these people, but also everyone they have discussed this game with up to this point. It's a touchstone that is shared among many that was into computer games at the time, entirely different from the obscure offerings that the communities of genre fanatics sink their teeth into.

Ostensibly you have made a far superior game to RtMI, Pyke, but the direct qualities of the product cannot ever translate into renown at this stage, or indeed sales for that matter. Judging from the impressions I've read, knowing that the game itself is not worth my time, it seems that Gilbert himself is rather acutely aware of why anyone is paying attention to this effort and have thus resorted to what some episode of the atrocious American cartoon show 'South Park' once coined 'memberberries', or callbacks and references to the past games. With a hearty topping of 'diversity' and the most prominent writing style of the day. It's a revisitation, and in some sense a negation, of the past.

Before I get too carried away I will now share the piece I referred to in the beginning.

How the Internet Breaks Our Brains​

Some thoughts on how difficult it is to process scale instead of the introductory post I should start with.

My understanding - which, like everything I ever say, could be wrong - is that we used to be aware of the world immediately around us and had no more of a perception of the rest of the world than “there’s predators there.” Anything else was useless for survival. As humans developed so did our ability to understand the rest of the world, but extraordinarily little changed about our ability to perceive that world. We had the world in front of us, and we could hear about that world through oral traditions or, if we were in a literate society, read about that world. If you were an Ancient Sumerian you knew about your city and could learn about other places, although your society’s sum of knowledge about those places was limited. Apart from the growth of that sum of knowledge, that picture didn’t really change for the entirety of human history. Your ability to travel to those places could grow, or meet people from those places, or taste spices from those places, but your ability to perceive anything was limited to what was immediately in front of you.

But then, less than 200 years ago, we got the ability – through technology – to actually see something not in front of us. a photograph of something not in front of us. Suddenly, you didn’t need to actually go somewhere to see something. You didn’t have to rely on your imagination, or a work of art to charge that imagination. This technological miracle is called photography and it was an absolute revolution of perception. And, despite it taking millennia of civilization to achieve that revolution, in the blink of an eye we left it in the dust. Less than a half century later, we had moving pictures, or as we hilariously still call them, movies. You could have been a child when photography was in its infancy and as an adult you now had movies. This is a second revolution in perception in one person’s lifetime.

But then we quickly blew that away. In August 1920, radio station 8MK in Detroit broadcast the first ever radio news program. We started by talking about the Ancient Sumerians, now we’re talking about something when my grandmother was about to be born. The ability to hear – live – other people hundreds of miles away talking. Show that to one of those Sumerians and they would assume it was magic.

The impact that film and radio had on the world is extensively documented. The reams of paper spent just on how Adolf Hitler used this new media to rise to power is enough to kill a small forest. These were civilization altering technologies. And they came less than a century after we couldn’t even see something unless we were stood in front of it.

Then we blew that away again. When my grandmother was born, only a few people could listen to radio. By the time my mother was born, 44 million Americans were watching I Love Lucy from the comfort of their homes. These are technologies we all take for granted but were massive revolutions in how humans perceived the world.

It’s popular to downplay the internet (“email isn’t special, it’s just faster letters”) but anyone who lived through the COVID-19 pandemic knows that’s false. The internet has completed revolutionized how we interact with each other and with the world around us. I can have a live videoconference with someone on the other side of the planet while watching live television and getting real-time updates on my phone about even more far-flung events. This is not even considered unusual, except for the entirety of the time humanity has existed.

Why am I writing about this? In part, because the idea behind this newsletter is the intersection of technology and society and how we need to think about how these things interact with each other. But it’s also because I want to discuss the relative unpopularity of things we consider to be popular how that warps our perceptions.

Up until sometime last year, I very carefully avoided using social media to follow anyone even remotely political. During the boredom of COVID lockdowns, I began exploring that space. I found a lot of writers who had views relatively like mine and who I found thoughtful or interesting. Then I discovered that there are also many people online who are obsessed with hating these people. I’m not talking about people who obsess online over the President. I’m talking about people who spend what is seemingly a large part of their day obsessing over random journalists. The most bizarre case of all this bizarre fixation was of a writer - and fellow Substacker, although one slightly more successful than me - named Jesse Singal. A lot of loud people on the internet consider him a transphobe. This apparently begins with an article he wrote for The Atlantic on youth gender dysphoria. I have less than zero interest in exploring the finer points of who is and is not a transphobe. What’s far more interesting to me is the sheer amount of time and effort people spend arguing that he needs to be deplatformed because he’s actively harming the trans community. The tweetstorms. The articles about him. The professional writer who authored a book that has multiple chapters about him. This is absolutely insane because, well, he’s a journalist on the internet. Which is a cohort of very erudite and respectable people who are slightly more powerful than the guy who makes your sandwich at Subway.

At time of writing, he has about 100,000 followers on Twitter. That is far more than my twentysome. But, to put that in perspective, Dave Chappelle (the current target of trans activist anger) has roughly 850,000. Which does not seem impressive, except he hasn’t tweeted in nine years. Mr. Singal cohosts a (very enjoyable) podcast that has thousands of paid subscribers. To put that in perspective, Joe Rogan (another target of anger from similar people) has hundreds of millions of monthly downloads and views. That’s what famous looks like. Even the article that angers people is from a magazine that, at its peak, had less than 900,000 subscribers. More people watch professional wrestling every week. Brian Eno once said that the first Velvet Underground album only sold 10,000 albums, but everyone who bought one went out and started a band. You essentially must assume that everyone who read The Atlantic article went out and did the transphobe equivalent of starting a band for this article to have had the impact in the real world that these people think he had. And yet, they are obsessed with him.

I find him to be an interesting example because of the discrepancy between the vitriol he inspires and the fact that when Twitter suggested I follow him I thought he was a genial fellow most interested in sly humor and reasoned debate. But if that’s not your jam the internet is replete with examples. People who exist in the politics Twitter bubble are constantly creating tempests in teapots because they’re unaware of how few people are paying attention to these things. The amount of words spilled over MSNBC and Fox News are like grains of sand on a beach. They’re treated as incredibly important, and many people consider the latter to be hugely influential in American politics. Of course, those countless words don’t include many on how few people watch these shows.

About 155 million people voted in the last Presidential election. About 3% of them watch MSNBC or Fox News. The juggernaut that is Rachel Maddow gets a little over 2 million people to watch her show, about the same amount as watch Dateline or WWE Smackdown. Tucker Carlson, the most powerful man in media with cable’s highest rated show, gets about three and a half million. Which is really impressive, it’s almost as much as the amount of people who watch the Monday Night Football postgame show at 11:45 at night. Maybe Chris Berman is the most powerful man in media? Combined, last Wednesday they still drew a million less than the Country Music Awards. This doesn’t even account for how old their audiences are. Combined, Maddow and Carlson don’t even sniff a million people under the age of 55 watching their shows. More people who aren’t in AARP are playing World of Warcraft right now than watching those shows. And these two are titans compared to the people on Twitter!

Look, it’s incontrovertibly good that technology has allowed us to decentralize content distribution enough that someone can make a living marketing a product that tens of thousands of people want, or even become incredibly rich off marketing a product that a couple million want. But that is a tiny niche. Because of how the internet generally and social media specifically is designed, people who have created a world around these issues are fooled into thinking that this is much more impactful in the real world than it is. Leaving aside all the emotional side effects to the person engaging in this kind of catastrophizing, and the general poisoning of the discourse, it also has the very real problem of being a gigantic waste of time. And not in a “well, this issue is important, but it’s no Darfur” way, but in a “this actually has no discernible impact on the real world” way. Spending time tweeting about a writer that almost the entire country has never heard of does exactly nothing to improve trans rights. If this is an issue you care about, you should want to spend time on achieving that goal. But social media makes it seem to these people like they are actually doing something important when they’re wasting their time. It is a fake world.

Yet to these people it is deadly real. They’re being fooled by algorithms and network effects into believing a simulacrum of the world they’re involved in creating is the real world. And I suspect there are two main culprits here. The first is the death of the monoculture. The monoculture wasn’t exactly great, as anyone who lived during it knows. There were lots of excellent television shows canceled for “unpopularity” or bands you never heard of because a record company exec didn’t think they could sell. Most of my life has been greatly enhanced by the death of the monoculture, which is due almost entirely to the internet. But at least it gave perspective. You knew what was actually widespread and what was niche.

When I was a teenager, I loved the internet in part because I didn’t know people in real life who wanted to discuss the niche topics I found interesting and, because I was a teenage nerd, obsessed over. The internet let me talk about those things, and write about those things, which allowed me to connect with more people about those things. Suddenly, the progress of some 19-year-old goalie in Sweden or the release of a new starship design on Star Trek was a big deal, not just some random footnote I might remark on to an uninterested friend or family member. But at least I knew it wasn’t really a big deal. The actual world around me was, like it was for all of humanity, what I mainly experienced. I had perspective.

Then the world continued to change, and instead of using a 2800 bps modem on a clunky desktop sitting in the living room to connect with a handful of people I could interact with via text, I had almost instantaneous full video and sound interaction with billions of people across the planet in a device I always have with me. The connection was better and ubiquitous. And as more people came online, the network effects took hold. I wrote about hockey on the internet as a teenager. I was rather good at it, which meant I would get hundreds and then thousands of people reading my articles. Now, if I wanted to talk about hockey prospects, I have hundreds of thousands of people I could do that with. That’s not just a quantitative difference but a qualitative one. I no longer must live in a world where my perception is that this is a niche thing I need to interact with some random strangers about. This becomes practically indistinguishable from reality.

I spent a few years living in a hipster hotbed (not Brooklyn) during the height of hipsterdom. I went to a hipster bar. I had friends who became, if not hipster, hipster adjacent. This created a subculture where these people came to believe this was not unusual. I knew people who believed LCD Soundsystem were popular. Not merely among their community. They thought this was a legitimately big musical act. Their best album went gold (which means it sold between half a million and a million units). Shania Twain’s Come On Over moved forty million copies. That’s popular. But the network effect of living in a place with so many people like them allowed them to think the world was quite different than it was. They were like 10th Century Berber nomads believing the entire world was desert. That’s what the internet does to people. In a world that allows people to follow whatever niche they desire they can fool themselves that it’s not a niche. They’re creating their own Williamsburg anywhere they are, and they’re barely conscious of it.

This is the second big cause. My hypothesis is that humans are unable – evolutionarily – to grasp the size of society. There’s famous work about how part of the problem with Facebook is that we’re only able to process knowing a relatively small amount of people. Ignoring how precisely true that is, it’s certainly true that for most of human history the amount of people we could interact with was limited. The problem is that there’s seven billion people on this planet. And a large amount of them are online. We can’t fathom the scope of this naturally, so unless we’re consciously trying, it’s a problem.

This is what I call the Kardashian Conundrum. Kim Kardashian is genuinely famous. People know she has a television show. People know that there are people obsessed with the Kardashians. People assume that America is really into the Kardashians. But they’re not. Their television show - Keeping Up with the Kardashians – was so unpopular it makes Tucker Carlson look like an NFL game. The absolute highest amount of people to ever watch an episode of it was under five million people, but they generally only had about a million or so people watching their show, two if they were lucky. In a country of 330 million people. If you worked in an office with 165 people, and there was one person who was just wild about coffee enemas, and would not shut up about coffee enemas, would your conclusion be “Wow, coffee enemas are really popular” or would you just assume there’s someone really into it and everyone else just knows because of them? Our brains can understand when we think of it on this village level, but not at a national level. And certainly not a global level. But social media will feed the idea that something is popular even if it’s just a niche, and the people whose voice will be amplified will be those most obsessed with a thing. So instead of properly assessing it as “The Kardashians are famous, Kim is very famous – in part because of her attractiveness – and so most people have heard of them and a tiny few are really into them” your brain assesses it as “Geez, Americans love them some Kardashians.” It’s a false consciousness because we don’t actively attempt to process scale.

In a span of less than two hundred years we went from being able to perceive nothing except what was directly in front of us to being able to perceive the entire world whenever we wanted. In that time span, our brains have not caught up to processing scale. We constantly misperceive how widespread and important things are. I used a somewhat simple example for it in this one because I both found it amusing and also I need to save examples to return to this topic again in the future. But the world around us is now filled with people creating their own niche realities and then believing those are the reality that everyone else lives in too. That seems inherently more troubling. Is it surprising that the internet – and increasingly the real world – is descending into people just talking past each other? There’s a famous – and possibly apocryphal – quote of “How could Nixon win? I don’t know anyone who voted for him.” That’s becoming the entire world. Or, possibly worse, when the only people you know who disagree with you are those who are willing to argue loudly and long about it online. How can we possibly leave the world a better place than we found it if we don’t even know what our world is anymore?
 
Joined
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Codex Year of the Donut
sad fact is that many men don't get their T checked when they get older and end up buying garbage like RTMI as nostalgiabait
don't let that happen to you, get your T checked and realize you should have bought Stasis instead
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
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5,719
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California
SteamDB says 15,539. Steamcharts often doesn’t track the first day correctly. I’m not sure why. It wouldn’t show RMI at all when I checked yesterday.

I would never make a game like this because I don’t like it. It is possible (in fact, very likely) to make the right choice for the market but the wrong choice for yourself. Market and self align only when money and fame are really important. For me, game development is a hobby/passion, not a meaningful source of revenue. I know to a certainty I could’ve been more successful with Strangeland (in particular) and Primordia by compromising what mattered to me, but to what end? I’m not going to treat religion or love (or puzzles or retro gamers) with contempt to increase my annual income by .1%; I wouldn’t do it for 100% and no game I could make would do that.

But I also can recognize that a game has landed with its audience. Broken Age—also with fanboys, also with celebrity endorsement, also with modern sensibilities—drew quite a lot of negative reviews and did not draw in this many players. RMI did. They’re not fake accounts and they’re not lying about their preferences. Lots of hardcore MI fans love the game. That is what it is.
 

Brancaleone

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I would never make a game like this because I don’t like it. It is possible (in fact, very likely) to make the right choice for the market but the wrong choice for yourself. Market and self align only when money and fame are really important. For me, game development is a hobby/passion, not a meaningful source of revenue. I know to a certainty I could’ve been more successful with Strangeland (in particular) and Primordia by compromising what mattered to me, but to what end? I’m not going to treat religion or love (or puzzles or retro gamers) with contempt to increase my annual income by .1%; I wouldn’t do it for 100% and no game I could make would do that.
Sure, mate. It's a relief to know that, should you ever need a few millions dollars, you'll simply have to ignore 'the right choices for your self' and just make 'the right choices for the market' instead. No need for that kind of marketing + nostalgia factor that are what carries RtMI, I'm sure.
 
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Joined
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188
Broken Age—also with fanboys, also with celebrity endorsement, also with modern sensibilities—drew quite a lot of negative reviews and did not draw in this many players.
The obvious conclusion is the one drawn in an above reply by Brancaleone, and myself, but I'm not going to toot my own horn; the 'success' has very little to do with the qualities of the game but rather its supposed lineage and the 'franchise' it belongs to. Recognition value, memetic value, attention catching. That is not to say, naturally, that dreadful products can't be both original and popular with the mass man, that is something one can easily observe in most mediums. In this case however what can be said about it is that leaning into what makes this 'important' and sell is something that does tend to work and it does so here.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
Quick question to MRY :
how many major gaming outlets reviewed your games before release?

this is a bit of a rhetorical question because I can just check after all
https://opencritic.com/game/12845/primordia/reviews

The two reviewers of note that reviewed it completely throttled your game. How does it feel knowing that if instead of your name being Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz it was Ron Gilbert, those would be 9/10s and 10/10s despite zero change in the game itself?
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
But I also can recognize that a game has landed with its audience. Broken Age—also with fanboys, also with celebrity endorsement, also with modern sensibilities—drew quite a lot of negative reviews and did not draw in this many players. RMI did. They’re not fake accounts and they’re not lying about their preferences. Lots of hardcore MI fans love the game. That is what it is.
Would Tim Schafer's game have been any more successful had he made a Day of the Tentacle sequel instead of some new no-name property with zero brand recognition?

I'm pretty sure it would.
 

Keshik

Arcane
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
2,227
Adventure games have been dead for quite a while.

I don't think they are, still are some released - can see the thread with them in this forum, for example. Not saying they're all gems or anything but that's not the criteria for a genre to be dead, no ?

It's no surprise to me that the game got positive reivews this quickly. Just check the response on Gilberts controversial posts on his blog. Sycophants en masse, which is directly translated to positive reviews on Steam after only a few minutes to an hour of playtime - to show the "haters" what is up. You can check for yourself on Steam too, since you can put in a minimum and a maximum of hours played for reviews.

View attachment 28439

Legit, I'm sure.

Reading some of the reviews (to get myself angry - I guess I have issues) I saw one person with 16 hours, hah. That's mental.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
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Messages
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Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Reading some of the reviews (to get myself angry - I guess I have issues) I saw one person with 16 hours, hah. That's mental.

At least that person played the game long enough for form a real opinion on it.

Any review with less than 2 or 3 hours can be safely discarded. Especially sub-1 hour reviews. If someone gushes positively about a game but has barely started playing it, how accurate can his opinion be?
 

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