RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[agentorange]

thread theme

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

No – after raising some questions about company finances and other issues, Feargus de-ownered me (which I didn’t have a choice in)

It is incredible.
Can you elaborate on this? How was it even legally possible?

Edit: by "incredible" I don't mean that I don't believe. Only that I am flabbergasted.

 

[Maculo]

(I realized I didn’t answer this.)

No – after raising some questions about company finances and other issues, Feargus de-ownered me (which I didn’t have a choice in) and then told, “but don’t worry, we’ll still allow you to work on Tyranny for us,” and my response was, “that’s okay, you can work on it by yourself.”

Before this seems unusual, de-ownering was actually a common threat tossed around, so it wasn’t specific to me – if any owner raised objections to events going on, the response was often, “you don’t sound like you want to be an owner anymore” and never addressed the actual issues being brought up.

Not surprisingly, this shift in being de-ownered coincided with taking place shortly before the first royalty payments from Eternity came in, which meant that the surviving owners got a much larger share with me de-ownered (I don’t mind that, as I didn’t want royalty payments from Eternity, but I don’t think the other owners deserved royalties, either, except maybe a set amount for Darren for the Backer portal work he put in – the team deserved all of it). It was a good business decision, but not good ethics.

Interesting, was the ownership "right" revocable by a controlling interest-Feargus, or was it a "vote" to take away ownership?

 

[Prime Junta]

Feargus de-ownered me

Who wrote your SHA? Mephistopheles?

 

[Drax]

Waaaaaaaaait a minute. "Sudden" cancellation? Why it would be sudden if you'd planned on resigning?

Chris, were you fired from Obsidian?

(I realized I didn’t answer this.)

No – after raising some questions about company finances and other issues, Feargus de-ownered me (which I didn’t have a choice in) and then told, “but don’t worry, we’ll still allow you to work on Tyranny for us,” and my response was, “that’s okay, you can work on it by yourself.”

Before this seems unusual, de-ownering was actually a common threat tossed around, so it wasn’t specific to me – if any owner raised objections to events going on, the response was often, “you don’t sound like you want to be an owner anymore” and never addressed the actual issues being brought up.

Not surprisingly, this shift in being de-ownered coincided with taking place shortly before the first royalty payments from Eternity came in, which meant that the surviving owners got a much larger share with me de-ownered (I don’t mind that, as I didn’t want royalty payments from Eternity, but I don’t think the other owners deserved royalties, either, except maybe a set amount for Darren for the Backer portal work he put in – the team deserved all of it). It was a good business decision, but not good ethics.

Since I'm a 30ish year old teenager I have no idea how corporate ownership stuff works so I really don't understand how can they de-own one of the founders of a company giving nothing in compensation... Unless they can prove wrongdoing from him isn't that like... you know... stealing?

 

[Infinitron]

I would assume that a process of "de-ownering" was part of the original contract that everybody signed when Obsidian was founded.

 

[Maculo]

Waaaaaaaaait a minute. "Sudden" cancellation? Why it would be sudden if you'd planned on resigning?

Chris, were you fired from Obsidian?

(I realized I didn’t answer this.)

No – after raising some questions about company finances and other issues, Feargus de-ownered me (which I didn’t have a choice in) and then told, “but don’t worry, we’ll still allow you to work on Tyranny for us,” and my response was, “that’s okay, you can work on it by yourself.”

Before this seems unusual, de-ownering was actually a common threat tossed around, so it wasn’t specific to me – if any owner raised objections to events going on, the response was often, “you don’t sound like you want to be an owner anymore” and never addressed the actual issues being brought up.

Not surprisingly, this shift in being de-ownered coincided with taking place shortly before the first royalty payments from Eternity came in, which meant that the surviving owners got a much larger share with me de-ownered (I don’t mind that, as I didn’t want royalty payments from Eternity, but I don’t think the other owners deserved royalties, either, except maybe a set amount for Darren for the Backer portal work he put in – the team deserved all of it). It was a good business decision, but not good ethics.

Since I'm a 30ish year old teenager I have no idea how corporate ownership stuff works so I really don't understand how can they de-own one of the founders of a company giving nothing in compensation... Unless they can prove wrongdoing from him isn't that like... you know... stealing?

Depends on the agreement and what is meant by "founder." Although not exactly applicable to this situation, one can have rights to a share of profits and losses in some business entities, while still not having control, such as the right to vote.

 

[Mustawd]

I can't claim to have read every comment, but how does a partner walk away from a partnership with absolutely nothing? Everything about his experience sounds more like an employee. Is co-founder being mixed up with being a partner/co-owner?

On a side note, if he was just an employee then any non-compete clause is automatically not binding in California and I can't imagine a situation where a court would uphold a lifetime ban. Generally, even in states they allow them, they have to be pretty limited.

Junior Partners
In some businesses, "junior" simply denotes that the partner has not worked for the company as long as the senior partners have. In other circumstances, the role of the junior partner is significantly limited: he doesn't contribute as much capital to the partnership, he doesn't have an equal right to the management and control of the business, or he doesn't receive an equal percentage of the partnership profits. Whatever the case, a junior partnership agreement should concisely describe the nature of the junior partner's role and responsibilities in the organization.

 

[Crispy]

Actually, "de-ownership" is probably only something that can happen when the company you helped form was originally done so on the back of a napkin in some diner.

 

[aratuk]

I can't claim to have read every comment, but how does a partner walk away from a partnership with absolutely nothing? Everything about his experience sounds more like an employee. Is co-founder being mixed up with being a partner/co-owner?

On a side note, if he was just an employee then any non-compete clause is automatically not binding in California and I can't imagine a situation where a court would uphold a lifetime ban. Generally, even in states they allow them, they have to be pretty limited.

Avellone has verified in this thread that he was a co-owner of Obsidian, and he has also said he left the company with nothing by way of compensation.

I and others have asked him how this can be the case, at times when he’s been very active in the thread, so almost certainly reading the question. But he hasn’t answered.

Maybe there were some shenanigans in Obsidian’s charter that allowed the other owners to invalidate Avellone’s share without paying him, but then it seems unlikely a situation like that could have been kept quiet for so long.

It’s also possible that his share in the company is still an outstanding, unresolved deal. If he said he wanted to be bought out, and they responded with asking him to agree to onerous terms in order to do so, and he refused and walked away, the issue could have been left hanging until and unless one party or the other feels motivated to deal with it.

Avellone has also said he “guarantees” he has more money in the bank than Obsidian, a company with around 200 people on the payroll. He’s likely exaggerating for effect, but that would still translate into him not giving a shit anymore about being bought out.

Really, though, what would Obsidian’s valuation even be? Pillars of Eternity IP, probably as much debt as its lines of credit will allow for, and what else?

EDIT: Ninja’d by Avellone. But his explanation is something… outside my experience. Taking away ownership without compensation… Couldn’t Feargus then just “de-owner” everyone but himself? Or everyone but himself and two other owners, to make a majority?

 

[Azarkon]

Waaaaaaaaait a minute. "Sudden" cancellation? Why it would be sudden if you'd planned on resigning?

Chris, were you fired from Obsidian?

(I realized I didn’t answer this.)

No – after raising some questions about company finances and other issues, Feargus de-ownered me (which I didn’t have a choice in) and then told, “but don’t worry, we’ll still allow you to work on Tyranny for us,” and my response was, “that’s okay, you can work on it by yourself.”

Before this seems unusual, de-ownering was actually a common threat tossed around, so it wasn’t specific to me – if any owner raised objections to events going on, the response was often, “you don’t sound like you want to be an owner anymore” and never addressed the actual issues being brought up.

Not surprisingly, this shift in being de-ownered coincided with taking place shortly before the first royalty payments from Eternity came in, which meant that the surviving owners got a much larger share with me de-ownered (I don’t mind that, as I didn’t want royalty payments from Eternity, but I don’t think the other owners deserved royalties, either, except maybe a set amount for Darren for the Backer portal work he put in – the team deserved all of it). It was a good business decision, but not good ethics.

Did they actually take away your shares? I assume you had minority shares in the company.

To make the story short, it's very similar to what happened to a business I was personally involved in. Basically, the majority share holder of the company kicked us out over arguments about finances, then made up an excuse about it to paint us in a bad light. We pursued legal address and got an apology out of it, and kept our shares because it'd have been illegal to take those away, but the company basically never reported profits again. As you said, solid business decision, terrible morals.

 

[agentorange]

Actually, "de-ownership" is probably only something that can happen when the company you helped form was originally done so on the back of a napkin in some diner.

I think Obsidian started out in Feargus's attic so that might not be far off.

 

[Quillon]

If Feargus only have the de-owner powa, he should de-owner the remaining 3 lazy asses also. Other than what happened with MCA, only Feargus seems to be "working" there, de-owner the others so company should breathe :D

 

[Mustawd]

Really, though, what would Obsidian’s valuation even be? Pillars of Eternity IP, probably as much debt as its lines of credit will allow for, and what else?

That's not the only way to value something. Especially companies.

EDIT: https://www.thebalance.com/business-valuation-methods-2948478

TL;DR
1. Asset Based approach
2. Earning Value Approach
3. Market Value Approach

 

[Rev]

Chris Avellone how could you just lose the ownership of the company you co-founded just like that and get nothing in return? Don't you have a lawyer or something?
I don't know how it works in the USA, but where I live I think it's a bit harder to rob someone of his equity shares just like that.

 

[Azarkon]

No – after raising some questions about company finances and other issues, Feargus de-ownered me (which I didn’t have a choice in)

It is incredible.
Can you elaborate on this? How was it even legally possible?

Edit: by "incredible" I don't mean that I don't believe. Only that I am flabbergasted.

Not only is it legal, but it is common in small business disputes, for the majority share holder to remove minority share holders from the company.

The only legal issue would've been taking away his shares - that is not usually legal without abuse.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

If Feargus only have the de-owner powa, he should de-owner the remaining 3 lazy asses also. Other than what happened with MCA, only Feargus seems to be "working" there, de-owner the others so company should breathe :D

 

[Abu Antar]

I'm no legal expert and I will never become one, but every time I read a new post by Chris Avellone about what happened, I can only think

 

[agentorange]

Maybe he doesn't feel worth it to get lawyered up and spend the next years in and out of court. All of that can be merciless and exhausting. He seems to be too busy enjoying his new freedom.

 

[Cross]

Waaaaaaaaait a minute. "Sudden" cancellation? Why it would be sudden if you'd planned on resigning?

Chris, were you fired from Obsidian?

(I realized I didn’t answer this.)

No – after raising some questions about company finances and other issues, Feargus de-ownered me (which I didn’t have a choice in) and then told, “but don’t worry, we’ll still allow you to work on Tyranny for us,” and my response was, “that’s okay, you can work on it by yourself.”

Before this seems unusual, de-ownering was actually a common threat tossed around, so it wasn’t specific to me – if any owner raised objections to events going on, the response was often, “you don’t sound like you want to be an owner anymore” and never addressed the actual issues being brought up.

Not surprisingly, this shift in being de-ownered coincided with taking place shortly before the first royalty payments from Eternity came in, which meant that the surviving owners got a much larger share with me de-ownered (I don’t mind that, as I didn’t want royalty payments from Eternity, but I don’t think the other owners deserved royalties, either, except maybe a set amount for Darren for the Backer portal work he put in – the team deserved all of it). It was a good business decision, but not good ethics.

You didn't think it was relevant to mention the fact that Feargus took away your co-ownership and robbed you of your royalties when you were describing the sordid details of how you left Obsidian?

Are there any other incidental human right violations Obsidian commited that we should be aware of?

 

[HanoverF]

“we’ll still allow you to work on Tyranny for us,” and my response was, “that’s okay, you can work on it by yourself.”

Feargus reaction:

Spoiler

 

[Rev]

Maybe he doesn't feel worth it to get lawyered up and spend the next years in and out of court. All of that can be merciless and exhausting. He seems to be too busy enjoying his new freedom.

He's obviously not happy with how things turned out, though, so maybe it would've been worth it to do something more about it.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

No – after raising some questions about company finances and other issues, Feargus de-ownered me (which I didn’t have a choice in)

It is incredible.
Can you elaborate on this? How was it even legally possible?

Edit: by "incredible" I don't mean that I don't believe. Only that I am flabbergasted.

Not only is it legal, but it is common in small business disputes, for the majority share holder to remove minority share holders from the company.

The only legal issue would've been taking away his shares - that is not usually legal without abuse.

I figured the other partners diluted him (a la how Mark Zuckerberg forced out his roomy in The Social Network). They just create new shares and divide them among themselves, leaving MCA out. So maybe Chris had 5 shares out of a hundred, they could make it so he has 5 shares out of 10 million, making his position effectively worthless without technically taking anything away from him. But it sounds even simpler than that.

 

[Maculo]

Chris Avellone how could you just lose the ownership of the company you co-founded just like that and get nothing in return? Don't you have a lawyer or something?
I don't know how it works in the USA, but where I live I think it's a bit harder to rob someone of his equity shares just like that.

It depends on the entity and the agreement. Avellone did not mention shares, and so I am inclined to think he meant a right to the profits and losses. There could be an agreement to give him a share of the profits and losses without granting shares, ownership control, equity stake, etc.

 

[Irata]

EDIT: Ninja’d by Avellone. But his explanation is something… outside my experience. Taking away ownership without compensation… Couldn’t Feargus then just “de-owner” everyone but himself? Or everyone but himself and two other owners, to make a majority?

I'm stunned at what happened if he was an actual partner. I just can't believe that "owner" isn't being used as a synonym for founder. Was he liable for the company's debts? Even in a limited capacity? If so and he had no equity then he should sue his lawyer. I'm not trying to be a dick, but someone screwed him over big time, and knew they were screwing him, if he was an actual co-owner. I'm not even sure it would be legal.