Codex Review RPG Codex Review: The Bard's Tale IV

[Grauken]

As for pitch vs. product, BTIV did indeed deliver what was promised in the pitch (perhaps not a great version of what was promised, but it is what was promised). Go back and actually read the kickstarter pitch page and you'll see it's all there. Thousands of backers didn't read it, and even if they did they filled in the blanks with what they wanted to see: "This game is going to basically be BT 1-3 but with better graphics." That's never stated - or even strongly implied - anywhere.

Actually they did, the whole Kickstarter pitch can be read that way. That it turned out to be 100% not at all like BT 1-3 is probably not what most expected, except apologists like you

I agree with you in one regard, technically they did deliver on most promises, but you know, repeated customers or fans aren't made by being technically correct, that only gets you so far

 

[Zombra]

how much is inxile paying you for all these apologetics, all the time, in all the threads

I'm not apologizing for anything ... simply pointing out that some of the complaints are factually way off base.

 

[Rpguy]

I really tried to like bard's tale 4 and quite recommended it despite being obviously very buggy but after a several hours of a fun game you come to realize the game is just too easy, the puzzles are repetitive and gets boring, the last puzzle was not "hard" more like masochistic and annoying, there are only 4 classes and each class ends up the same.

Bards tale 1 had, sorcerer, magician, wizard, archmage, conjurer each with their list of unique spells in BT4 each one of these is a 1 point talent that you take for your wizard and the whole wizard class has like 10 spells ( and you can't "equip" more than 4 to use in battle )

BTW enemy do respawn and not just at the end of the game , several times actually, I guess they had to do it since some legendary weapons require you to kill monster X...

So yeah starts promising and disappoints the further you go on.

 

[theSavant]

As for pitch vs. product, BTIV did indeed deliver what was promised in the pitch (perhaps not a great version of what was promised, but it is what was promised). Go back and actually read the kickstarter pitch page and you'll see it's all there. Thousands of backers didn't read it, and even if they did they filled in the blanks with what they wanted to see: "This game is going to basically be BT 1-3 but with better graphics." That's never stated - or even strongly implied - anywhere.

Actually they did, the whole Kickstarter pitch can be read that way. That it turned out to be 100% not at all like BT 1-3 is probably not what most expected, except apologists like you

I agree with you in one regard, technically they did deliver on most promises, but you know, repeated customers or fans aren't made by being technically correct, that only gets you so far

Yeah, agree... I just read the KS pitch again it's true. they delivered everything they promised in their fuzzy description.


InXile:
"HAHAA!!! We've told you so! You should have listened!"

Backers:

 

[Themadcow]

They delivered 95% of what they said in the KS pitch video - agreed. Maybe more of us should have seen through the lack of specifics at the time.

However, they did state that it would be a grid based game with optional free-look, and the updates referenced a number of things that were nothing like the final game. Aside from the lack of delivery on monsters and classes, they also stated that the game would allow you to explore where you wanted - while the eventual game is pretty much on rails.

 

[theSavant]

One quote from the pitch I want to point out though:

if this game hits its $1.25 million goal, inXile will put in at least $1.25 million of its own money to double the initial budget!

It probably should have stayed at that additional $1.25 million and not $10 million. Especially when considering the complaints about the repetitive last 30 hours gameplay. Maybe it would have stayed at 10 hours quality gameplay then. It's like everything they added afterwards became shit. Reminds me of Star Citizen: the more money you give them, the shittier it gets.

 

[Rpguy]

Quote from the kickstarter:
"Expect a challenge it would not be an easy game"

 

[LeStryfe79]

I backed this game right before backing Bernie Sanders. I'll let you know how it turned out later.

 

[felipepepe]

What we really should do is take advantage of the best thing any InXile Kickstarter brought: Krome Studio's remake of Bard's Tale.

Abandon the false god Fargo and give all the monies to Krome, so they remake Wizardry 1-5 and the Gold Box series. Amen.

 

[Fowyr]

Yet again we see that Fargo lost his touch. You had one job, Brian, one job! I wonder how demented you should be to piss off both camps of Bard's Tale fans. Younger people who thought about
got nothing. We, oldfags, got superficial things like "Skara Brae city", 9999 barbarians in 99 waves instead of 4*99 Berserkers that was fun encounter (3-5 minutes with proper spells), idiotic dungeons instead of

and Hearthstone combat. BT's combat was pretty basic, but it was interesting, it even had innovative things like magic music instruments that were later used in Wiz6. Instead we got pile of shit with a Bard's Tale name on the top. At least no one tried to "enhance" poor Dragon Wars yet.

 

[Infinitron]

MRY makes an important point: inXile effectively had to use Kickstarter funds to start a whole new RPG company, because it's not like they had spent the last decade making RPGs and getting/accumulating development expertise like Obsidian had.

Wasteland 2, in that aspect, was as good as we could have hoped for: an overambitious and superjanky, ultimately falling-short CRPG that nevertheless had its heart in the right place and tried to deliver the real thing. I thought that was worthwhile to back. Anyone who expected a masterpiece would have been deluded.

Sadly it's the end of the line - after Torment and BT4, there's a limit to how long you can wait and how much money you can give to crowdfunding after several failures to improve on that. Troika got 3 games, and each of them were special classics in their own way even while being broken.

I have no hate for Fargo, he at least has spent years and years using all his powers to try and give us good old CRPGs, which is more than you can say for most people.

You're forgetting about George Ziets' Wasteland 3!

 

[theSavant]

It's also wrong to assume that people "dislike" someone, just because they criticise him or point out some backgrounds of this person. The one accusing others of that might have projected his inner self... in that he interpretes every criticism as dislike/hate.

 

[The_Mask]

sorinmask Honestly, not sure what the difference between the pitch and the game is. The pitch is a bunch of marketing fluff, taglines, and concept art, but it seemed like everything they listed was in the game in one way or the other. IMO there's a difference between releasing something that's shorter, uglier, wordier, and clunkier than was expected (which I take to be the core knocks on TTON) and something that's categorically different in look and feel than what players expected (which I take to be the case with DFA, M. No. 9, etc.). Obviously I'm absurdly biased on this front, but I don't think any of what inXile has released was a bait-and-switch or course change.

(I should add that the pitch is cringe-inducing now in a way that it wasn't before, but not sure why. Maybe it's the fabulous optimism mixed with Star Wars fan film seriousness...)

Let me put it this way:

1. with a gun to my head, asked to choose between Primordia and Tides, I'd chose Primordia.

2. seeing the word "Torment" grafted next to that steaming pile of junk makes my stomach churl.

and...

3. ask any codexer (yourself included) to make a comparison, point-by-point, between P:T and Tides, and all you're going to witness is a slow descent into despair, anger and frustration.




Maybe that explains the cringe?

 

[Diggfinger]

What we really should do is take advantage of the best thing any InXile Kickstarter brought: Krome Studio's remake of Bard's Tale.

Abandon the false god Fargo and give all the monies to Krome, so they remake Wizardry 1-5 and the Gold Box series. Amen.

Fargo is a legend/God among men. If nothing else, he supported Fallout and stopped it from being cancelled. That alone warrants the eternal love of the universe

 

[Goral]

how much is inxile paying you for all these apologetics, all the time, in all the threads

I'm not apologizing for anything ... simply pointing out that some of the complaints are factually way off base.

I don't think you know the definition of the word.

 

[MRY]

sorinmask Well, I haven't played TTON, but I accept that it falls short on most (if not every) metric of comparison between it and PS:T. (My understanding is that quest complexity may be higher/better.) But that shows at worst a flawed attempt to deliver on what was promised, not a failure to deliver at all or a bad-faith departure from what was promised. That's why I think it's reasonable to be highly critical of inXile's products (none of which I've played, so I can't say whether such criticism is accurate) but not reasonable to attribute it to bad motives or bad character. Also, I'm not sure why the pitch video for TTON would make you think it would be as good as PS:T. Maybe it's hindsight bias, but it seems pretty goofy to me when I watch it.

theSavant Could be, but it seems like the criticism direct at Fargo is often personal (about his life or lifestyle) or framed as his being a liar or a fraud or an embezzler. I just think it's better to attack the product than the person.

 

[theSavant]

Agreed. Talking about liar and fraud... tbh I find that picture with "Don't believe his lies" very insulting. Even though I'm criticising a lot and not very happy about BT4, that is a bit too much. Infinitron where does this come from? Aren't there much worse people in the game industry?

Sigh... edited, because of your

what?

I mean this picture in the emoticon list:

Spoiler

 

[The_Mask]

sorinmask Well, I haven't played TTON, but I accept that it falls short on most (if not every) metric of comparison between it and PS:T. (My understanding is that quest complexity may be higher/better.) But that shows at worst a flawed attempt to deliver on what was promised, not a failure to deliver at all or a bad-faith departure from what was promised.

So if a peddler says he's going to sell you a quality product, but ends up selling you poison, are you still giving the peddler extra points for being honest about being a peddler, or are you going to sue him for trying to poison you?

That's why I think it's reasonable to be highly critical of inXile's products (none of which I've played, so I can't say whether such criticism is accurate) but not reasonable to attribute it to bad motives or bad character.

I'm sure bringing up the whole fund raising campaign and the shady process that followed would be futile. Nobody remembers that part anymore, right?

- The lack of communication.

- The area cuts

- The truncated "alignment" system. (by the way, the indigo tide is still a joke)

etc.

It *is* bad character.

Also, I'm not sure why the pitch video for TTON would make you think it would be as good as PS:T. Maybe it's hindsight bias, but it seems pretty goofy to me when I watch it.

I have to admit that *is* true. I think I got excited about a well-thought, well-polished RPG and thoroughly bewildered by that amazing child-actor, and I actually thought Fargo was actually going to attempt to make another P:T.

That is, indeed, shame on me.

 

[Infinitron]

Agreed. Talking about liar and fraud... tbh I find that picture with "Don't believe his lies" very insulting. Even though I'm criticising a lot and not very happy about BT4, that is a bit too much. Infinitron where does this come from? Aren't there much worse people in the game industry?

Sigh... edited, because of your question "

what?"

I mean this picture in the emoticon list:

Spoiler

It's a photoshop of a scene from the movie Memento. There are many of them: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/dont-believe-his-lies

 

[theSavant]

Yeah, but it's a heavy insult accusing one as a liar. Meme or not meme. What has Fargo done to deserve that meme?
Especially since it's permanently available for posting in this forum.

 

[Infinitron]

Yeah, but it's a heavy insult accusing one as a liar. Meme or not meme. What has Fargo done to deserve that meme?
Especially since it's permanently available for posting in this forum.

I think people are discussing that question now in this thread right now. I don't have much more to add!

I'm not the one who added that meme to the Codex. If you're unhappy about it, you should complain to DarkUnderlord (but I'd highly recommend that you don't!)

 

[Bohr]

People posted that for years before it became a regular option, making fun of Fargo's salesman/marketing routine and the hype he'd build. Don't think many people take it as seriously as you seem to be doing, imo some of the more personal stuff about him is much edgier.

 

[theSavant]

If you're unhappy about it, you should complain to DarkUnderlord (but I'd highly recommend that you don't!)

Oh, ok. "Everything is fine."

 

[MRY]

sorinmask Well, since I don't get paid for apologetics by the hour, I'm going to have to yield to your arguments. Is your take, then, that inXile did not "attempt to make another P:T"? My own is that P:T was the product of (1) an experienced studio with experienced, talented artists/coders/etc. working in a well-vetted engine (which made it possible for a game to go forward relatively smoothly) and (2) Avellone being the overwhelming force top-to-bottom in the narrative. TTON faced logistical problems and no unified narrative vision/voice, which meant that no amount of good intention would ever suffice to replicate PS:T. I suppose if the game is poison, you should be unhappy about it.

 

[agris]

[...] (2) Avellone being the overwhelming force top-to-bottom in the narrative. TTON faced logistical problems and no unified narrative vision/voice, which meant that no amount of good intention would ever suffice to replicate PS:T. [...]

Emphasis mine.

How do you unify these two things without concluding that Avellone did a poor job on the narrative?

Although I would argue that the game suffered much more from poor moment-to-moment gameplay in terms of a poor UI/UX, disjointed art direction, and amateur writing coupled with a MIA editor.