Review RPG Codex Review: Tyranny - Kyros Demands Better

[Excidium II]

Ah...Rifts. A game that is such a clusterfuck we gave up playing on chargen.

 

[Grunker]

It's funny because it has more impact than stat increases in IE games yet nobody seem to complain about those.

That's partly because D&D hides probabilities a lot better with obtuse nonsense and opaque fundamental mechanics. D&D in most (if not all) of its iterations is quite like a software GUI: What the DM and players see and utilize is different than, and several steps removed from, what's actually going on under the hood.

Certainly true for AD&D, but I don't really see it applying to newer additions, at least not relative to other systems.

 

[Blaine]

It's funny because it has more impact than stat increases in IE games yet nobody seem to complain about those.

That's partly because D&D hides probabilities a lot better with obtuse nonsense and opaque fundamental mechanics. D&D in most (if not all) of its iterations is quite like a software GUI: What the DM and players see and utilize is different than, and several steps removed from, what's actually going on under the hood.

Certainly true for AD&D, but I don't really see it applying to newer additions, at least not relative to other systems.

I'm thinking more along the lines of absoluteness, not relativity. Quite a few systems borrow broadly from D&D to a greater or lesser extent, particularly when it comes to the opaqueness of fundamental (perhaps "underlying" would be a better descriptor) mechanics. Like D&D, most systems are purpose-built.

This is in contrast to (much rarer) DIY-oriented and/or generic systems like GURPS, Hero System, etc. These systems are in essence frameworks around which the GM creates a custom GUI, so their underlying mechanics are much more transparent by design.

Sawyer's system design strays closer to generic transparency, perhaps because he works so hard to make it rigorously balanced. It plays somewhat like D&D, yet "feels" like a transparent generic system, one that you can't customize at all since it's a computer RPG... worst of both worlds, perhaps?

 

[Excidium II]

What the hell are you talking about? I thought it was about how it hides percentage increases behind absolute values (1 to d20 roll = 5%) but now you lost me

 

[Blaine]

What the hell are you talking about? I thought it was about how it hides percentage increases behind absolute values (1 to d20 roll = 5%) but now you lost me

That was my main point. I went off on a tangent.

 

[Excidium II]

Yeah but then you mention gurps and shit where percentages are even more obfuscated.

 

[Grunker]

Yeah but then you mention gurps and shit where percentages are even more obfuscated.

They are? GURPS has a side-bar for the percentile spread of 3d in case you don't know it by heart, and everything except damage rolls are just that, 3d. If you know that 12 or below is around 50% you basically know 90% of all odds you're going to expose yourself to. For the remaining damage rolls you very rarely need to know the odds.

 

[MicoSelva]

Thanks for the review, Prime Junta . I have set this thing to $15 threshold on my waitlist on isthereanydeal, will give it a spin when it reaches that price.

 

[Excidium II]

Yeah but then you mention gurps and shit where percentages are even more obfuscated.

They are? GURPS has a side-bar for the percentile spread of 3d in case you don't know it by heart, and everything except damage rolls are just that, 3d. If you know that 12 or below is around 50% you basically know 90% of all odds you're going to expose yourself to. For the remaining damage rolls you very rarely need to know the odds.

Sure, but still not as clear as what is more or less a d100 roll.

 

[Blaine]

Yeah but then you mention gurps and shit where percentages are even more obfuscated.

Raw percentages perhaps, but "what you get for each point of this power/ability/trait" is made quite clear and the increments tend to be predictable, because such regimentation is necessary in order for a generic system to be remotely usable.

As Grunker pointed out, while exact raw percentages might not be appended to every incremental value of every power/ability/trait, the way in which probability is handled in generic systems is usually standardized such that you can easily and accurately (if not always precisely) guesstimate nearly all percentages on the fly once you've familiarized yourself with the system.

3d6 (or similar) is considered superior by smug assholes like me because it creates a probability curve, rather than a straight line as is the case with d20.

 

[Excidium II]

Yes bell curve is superior. CRPG devs might discover it in our lifetime.

 

[Haplo]

Whatever system they have, it doesn't even work to that extent. The hardest fight in the game is at the end of Chapter 1. The endgame bossfights were piss-easy by comparison, they just took a while because of the HP bloat.

Granted, I haven't reached the end game yet. And well, maybe I suck. But so far I keep getting challenged in Act 2 on PotD. If I don't do heavy micro-management, I'm gonna loose these battles. Despite abusing the Finesse/Light armor design + high Parry and Tower Shield. Also I've seen my party members go down from roughly 50% HP to dead in one enemy swing of a two-hander.

Don't get me started on the Bane. Practically ignore your defenses (well, there's the Magic Defence stat.. with no clear way to raise other then some Lantry exclusive skills), keep dispelling and damaging you (guess they have a dispel & thorns aura). Plus debilitating aoe attacks and a shitton of HP. Which they fully replenish by absorbing their lesser brethren.
Whenever 2 Malice Banes are involved, I start sweating. Not to mention that damn Havoc fight...

For me the fight at the end of Chapter 1 was easier then many encounters with the bane. Though still difficult.

I rarely have to micro-manage as much as in this game. Whenever I go whatever, I should be able to solo these guys... I'm punished by that.. hard.

It's funny because it has more impact than stat increases in IE games yet nobody seem to complain about those.

Exactly! People look at these old IE games trough rose-tinted glasses. Thanks god for Obsidian that games like PoE and Tyranny are still being made...

 

[thesheeep]

It's funny because it has more impact than stat increases in IE games yet nobody seem to complain about those.

Well, D&D isn't exactly a great system, either.
But at least the feats (talking about 3.5 now) have some stuff with a very noticeable impact (and some with lesser, of course).
Take Cleave, for example. Or Weapon Finesse. Those are actual game changers. And there are many like it.

And hell, even the stats in IE games have a far more noticeable impact. To be honest, in PoE you could pick them at random and your character would still work just fine, except for the highest difficulty setting maybe.
Try going with random stats in IE games
Of course, with D&D it is kind of the other extreme - stats are so important that non min-maxing makes characters downright useless. Still, I find that far superior to PoE's it-doesn't-really-matter approach.

The only thing really making a difference with PoE is when you level up and gain new spells (those are broken in other ways, still). Everything else you can basically pick at random and it will work just fine anyway.

 

[Prime Junta]

OTOH arithmetic increments can end up producing weird curves too when they interact. If you need to roll a 20 to hit, it'll take you twice as long to beat the enemy than if you need a 19 to hit. Conversely, if you need a 2 to hit, getting that down to 1 will only shorten the fight by 5%.

 

[Excidium II]

Of course, with D&D it is kind of the other extreme - stats are so important that non min-maxing makes characters downright useless. Still, I find that far superior to PoE's it-doesn't-really-matter approach.

It is less that stats are more important, and more that they simply do nothing unless they are in the very high or very low ranges. So ofc you cant just random roll on IE, a 3d6 is just gonna give average results that do nothing most of the time (barring meeting class req. by default)

Also stuff like bonus damage and HP being flat values making them more impactful early on.

Keeping in mind that the way it was designed with a 3d6 in row in mind, most characters would never even reach those values.

 

[Prime Junta]

I rarely have to micro-manage as much as in this game. Whenever I go whatever, I should be able to solo these guys... I'm punished by that.. hard.

It's heavy micro for sure. But it's rote micro. Once you figure out how to beat one battle, you can beat them all.

(The rote trick with the Banes is to disengage when they start one of their nasty attacks. They stay still for those so you just have to get out of the AoE.)

 

[crawlkill]

after my millionth playthrough of IE games I never really expect RTwP gameplay to be great, though, I dunno. seems mostly to be about figuring out how best to break the game quickest, which was usually pretty easy. sounds like it did shore up some of the places PoE was sketchy for me. I'll hafta check it out.

actually the real problem with rtwp games is probably that it's always framed in a system where restoring your resources is just a question of resting or in a pinch going back to an inn to get your camping supplies back, which, like...I mean if I ran out of camping supplies in PoE and felt like I didn't have enough spells to continue that was what I did, y'know? there was no narrative consequence for taking a long time, so it was just some inconvenient loading screens. so it's not the mechanic itself that matters, but the fact that the difficulty curve hinges on having to take on multiple encounters with dwindling resources -but- you can always just decide to reset that curve at any time. and yeah, you might get attacked by ettercaps if you rest...but again, if those ettercaps do kill you, are you gonna end your playthrough? or are you just gonna reload and rest again?

I'm saying maybe these games would be improved by some kind of gauntlet/checkpoint system, as horrifying as that is to me. then again I thought the Beamdog BG1 expansion was improved by god mode so maybe all I really want out of these things is some nominal combat and strong dialogue

(I hear Torment 2 and even this game do sometimes have narrative timers on you, which would go a long way toward making combat tense, even if it was bad-repetitive to start with)

 

[Excidium II]

And another reason a random gen char would also be more viable on PoE because the classes are more flexible.

 

[Blaine]

OTOH arithmetic increments can end up producing weird curves too when they interact. If you need to roll a 20 to hit, it'll take you twice as long to beat the enemy than if you need a 19 to hit. Conversely, if you need a 2 to hit, getting that down to 1 will only shorten the fight by 5%.

A probability curve in the dice rolling tends to reduce or ameliorate extraneous logarithmic/exponential interactions as well, although I'll be damned if I can quite explain why at the moment.

 

[Grunker]

Yeah but then you mention gurps and shit where percentages are even more obfuscated.

They are? GURPS has a side-bar for the percentile spread of 3d in case you don't know it by heart, and everything except damage rolls are just that, 3d. If you know that 12 or below is around 50% you basically know 90% of all odds you're going to expose yourself to. For the remaining damage rolls you very rarely need to know the odds.

Sure, but still not as clear as what is more or less a d100 roll.

1) You said GURPS is "more obtuse." That's not correct.

2) Even disregarding that, your point is pretty academic. Of course you can have clarity without just a plain percentile role. 3d across the board is an obfuscation in aboslute terms, but come on. Anyone can look at 3d, understand that 12 is sort of your base and work from there. It's gotta be the most simple system out there in that regard.

I have a strong dislike for pure percentile rolls, partly because of aesthetics, partly because most systems that use it, like PoE, end up relying on modifiers that rely on your base competence. So assets in the system that boost your abilities boost them more if the base is good and less if the base is not. I don't like that, because it gives snowbally rewards/penalties.

 

[Excidium II]

I said obfuscated. And yes you can gauge and have an idea, but it is what it is.

Meaningless price to pay for the benefit it brings of course.

 

[Grunker]

lol. The point is that GURPS hardly obfuscates the odds behind its rolls more than D&D. That's not even remotely correct, the exact opposite is the case

 

[Infinitron]

Talking about PoE-ish stuff again, eh? I wasn't sure about having that part of the review in the intro post for that reason, but it was too powerfully-argued a point to exclude.

I have a strong dislike for pure percentile rolls, partly because of aesthetics, partly because most systems that use it, like PoE, end up relying on modifiers that rely on your base competence. So assets in the system that boost your abilities boost them more if the base is good and less if the base is not. I don't like that, because it gives snowbally rewards/penalties.

A point I sometimes make in conversations with people who complain about over-balance. Percentages are manna for powergamers

 

[Excidium II]

lol. The point is that GURPS hardly obfuscates the odds behind its rolls more than D&D. That's not even remotely correct, the exact opposite is the case

Dude it obfuscates more simply because it is not a percentile roll.

 

[Excidium II]

Talking about PoE-ish stuff again, eh? I thought about excluding that part of the review from the intro post for that reason, but it was too powerfully-argued a point to do th

You cannot stop the codex from bringing up PoE, somebody would post something about it ITT and same discussion would ensue