Community RPG Codex Top Ten Vintage RPGs Poll Results

[Ninjerk]

The Frankish people building churches never used the term to describe their style, but some Italian guy, 500 hundred years later, in other to delegitimize the movement, called "Frankish high middle age architecture" gothic (as in German barbarians that did not exist for a thousand years). Not only if someone says gothic today we will automatically think about that type of building (even though the term does not describe and is revisionist), but we started calling books, compositions, people, subgenres of rock and so on gothic (including a game: even if the game is German, it probably is somewhat infected by this chain). That is the thing, lots of terms are interchangeable and there are different chains of casual-historic communication.

That's an interesting point and never thought about it that way (that "gothic" is a revisionist category). But I noticed that in English "gothic" is used for so many things, e.g. I had no idea what a "gothic novel" was when I first encountered the term. In my native language (Hungarian), "gothic" is used for three things only: gothic architecture (mainly cathedrals), gothic lettering, and recently for gothic music, and that's it. It's interesting that these categories are also very much culture & language specific.

Actually, it works (in my political view) more than it should. Supposedly, our EE UU friends can talk more about it, Strunk's "The Elements of Style" has been purging dissidents for over one hundred years. It is quite true that prescriptive grammar does not affect the everyday speaker, but it is not the everyday speaker which becomes presidents, judges, journal editors, philosophers, and so on.

Thats's another interesting point; I still haven't got over the fact that neither UK or American English has an official grammar. The vast majority of languages do have an official regulatory body that defines the standard grammar, and that is what's being taught at school to kids. For example, in Hungary you can go to a bookstore and buy a copy of the current edition of the grammar and even a thesaurus with all the officially recognised words (which is always a bit controversial, but slang is not considered official anyway). I assume the situation is similar in other countries. Whereas in English the best you've got is the myriad of slightly conflicting style guides written by publishing houses and newspapers. Weird.

Trinity and Oxford, I think, publish the most popular English learning materials for second language learners, but I found it curious and somewhat amusing that (in spite of the fact we run VOA) the US just does not give a shit about pushing English outside of pop culture. I've had people argue with me about "correct" English, rules, etc. before and I have to remind them that US English speakers really don't give a shit what the UK's academic establishment says about how English is to be spoken.

 

[Bastardchops]

Blobber is still a stupid term, and comes off as a forced meme. It doesn't describe anything and thinks it is far wittier than it actually is.

It describes your party moving in a first person perspective as one unit. A blob. That's what it describes.

 

[Atlantico]

It describes your party moving in a first person perspective as one unit. A blob. That's what it describes.

But it doesn't, I can play Dungeon Master with one character. Then it is no longer a "blobber", because there is no party. Just a single character.

If a game changes categories based on whether you pick one or more characters, yet doesn't change in gameplay, look, feel or any other attribute, then the category in question is pointless, poorly thought out and redundant.

Simple as.

 

[felipepepe]

I can play Doom by just punching people, how is this an First-Person Shooter?

Same brilliant logic.

 

[Atlantico]

I can play Doom by just punching people, how is this an First-Person Shooter?

Same brilliant logic.

No that's a strawman, where you write something I didn't write, pretend I wrote it, and then argue against something I never wrote.

It's one of the most common logical fallacies known to the internet.

In fact, seeing as there's no material difference between the gameplay of a Doom that only uses punching and a Doom where you can use both punching and shooting or only shooting, it's literally my point that it is the same game and making up a new category for "punch-only Doom" a "punchie" if you will, is stupid.

Like you are.

 

[Sigourn]

I can play Doom by just punching people, how is this an First-Person Shooter?

Same brilliant logic.

No that's a strawman, where you write something I didn't write, pretend I wrote it, and then argue against something I never wrote.

It's one of the most common logical fallacies known to the internet.

In fact, seeing as there's no material difference between the gameplay of a Doom that only uses punching and a Doom where you can use both punching and shooting or only shooting, it's literally my point that it is the same game and making up a new category for "punch-only Doom" a "punchie" if you will, is stupid.

Like you are.

Except Doom was designed with first person shooting in mind, just like how blobbers are designed with parties in mind, because why in the fuck would you go to such lengths if players will say "I'm going to play a single character, sorry!".

The fact that one-character runs and no-gun runs in blobbers and first-person shooters respectively are seen as self-imposed challenge modes should tell you all you need to know.

Why would Black Isle advertised party-based adventuring when you can solo the game? This is an outrage!

 

[Dorateen]

Betrayal at Krondor's designer Neal Hallford also wrote the manual for New World Computing's Tunnels & Trolls, and he did an excellent job. There is so much background, lore and world building given to the player before even starting the game. The presentation of the manual is top tier.

That's another point about these vintage computer role-playing games; the extraneous information provided through books and maps far surpasses any modern products.

 

[Atlantico]

Except Doom was designed with first person shooting in mind, just like how blobbers are designed with parties in mind

There's already a thread for this discussion. Take it over there, smoothbrains.

 

[Lord_Potato]

stop the presses, a community dedicated to a niche hobby has its own lingo

Yes, it's better to kill such ideas at inception. Otherwise we might end up with more made up names that make no sense for games which are perfectly easily described without them.

I'm afraid that ship has sailed.

Maybe next time try to actually kill it at inception, not 10 years later?

 

[Atlantico]

stop the presses, a community dedicated to a niche hobby has its own lingo

Yes, it's better to kill such ideas at inception. Otherwise we might end up with more made up names that make no sense for games which are perfectly easily described without them.

I'm afraid that ship has sailed.

Maybe next time try to actually kill it at inception, not 10 years later?

Call it a late term abortion.

There's already a thread for this discussion.

 

[Morenatsu.]

What is a blobber?

 

[Sigourn]

What is a blobber?

Please spoiler that shit. There are sensitive users around.

 

[Contagium]

I've seen Dungeon Crawler associated more these days with single person rogue-likes, or Zelda looking games. Not sure how it got that way. But growing up in the 80's and early 90's, games like EOB and Dungeon Master were always "Dungeon Crawlers"

Glad to see this is up and thanks for all who participated! There were some surprises in there, such as Exile 3 making it to #20 or Princess Maker 2 and Conan getting as many votes as they did. I mentioned it before, but I'm still shocked Disciples of Steel didn't do better.

If someone wants to make a linked online poll like felipepepe does for his best CRPG votes it might also prove illuminating.

Princess Maker 2 is actually a surprisingly rich and fun game if the theme doesn't entirely turn you off. It's Rance Sengoku tier in terms of being the outlier in the series that has lasting power and is fun even eroge set aside. Alchemy Meister is like that too--I actually liked its gameplay more than the sex.

Blobber is still a stupid term, and comes off as a forced meme. It doesn't describe anything and thinks it is far wittier than it actually is.

the term used by everyone else in the world is dungeon crawler
https://www.dungeoncrawlers.org/

Dungeon Crawler is used for a ton of games though. It's not very specific. You'll see it used for any game that is primarily about... well, crawling through dungeons. So a lot of action games get lumped in. It's true blobber is an enthusiast term, but at least people know what it refers to.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

What the fuck happened in this thread?


In any case, this is actually a very solid top 10 list. Not that I agree with the choices, as I believe games like Betrayal at Krondor and World of Xeen don't deserve to be held in such high regard, but even the very worst game on that list (and I'm talking about Ultima VII here) is quite playable. There are no Bioware or Obsidian abominations tainting the whole thing, which is a bliss.

Still, I will repeat what I posted in the other thread:

That top 3 shows that people are voting for the games they believe are mere prototypes of what came later, which is a shame. At least Ultima Underworld is actually a great game (arguably better than all its successors) and Dark Sun has full party creation and turn-based combat, which gives it an edge over the IE games, but Betrayal at Krondor? WTF people, it's a cute game and I quite enjoyed it, but it doesn't deserve to be neaby the top 5. Having it above Darklands, Pool of Radiance or any Wizardry game is a travesty.

This golden era has way more to offer than hack and slash games and a bunch of Baldur's Gate and Morrowind predecessors, and unfortunately these results don't reflect that.

 

[Zeriel]

Your opinion is wrong and shit. None of the top 3 are games that are good because they are prototypes of what comes after--if anything the problem is they are better than what comes after.

 

[Rincewind]

In any case, this is actually a very solid top 10 list. Not that I agree with the choices, as I believe games like Betrayal at Krondor and World of Xeen don't deserve to be held in such high regard, but even the very worst game on that list (and I'm talking about Ultima VII here) is quite playable.

Like I said previously, you can simply reverse the rankings, and the list becomes at least twice as good. Optionally, drop the last entry from the resulting list for another big boost

 

[Bastardchops]

It's pretty funny and basically means "first-person party RPG". Nothing more, nothing less. Not all old RPGs were blobbers, after all.

No, it doesn't "mean" anything, it's just the meaning you and a very fringe group on the Codex has put in this term.

Nor is it "funny", it's a dad-joke level garbage.

This is like walking into a jerk-circle and having people going "well what's your problem? everyone here does it like this, it's totally normal".

Bizarrely out of touch.

Blobbers are is distinct from dungeon crawler since blobbers are party based. A dungeon crawler can just be one character.

 

[Bastardchops]

Blobbers is a term which doesn't exist, but is pushed by autistic neckbeards on the Codex for some reason. They must think they're super witty and smart.

So Blobber is a term which doesn't exist and you're arguing it shouldn't exist.

Besides, if "dungeon crawlers" is "is any combat-centric RPG activity set in dungeons", then why aren't they "hack and slashers"? That's just as descriptive.

Because they're set in dungeons.

I can refute your entire non-argument just by pointing to this: https://www.dungeoncrawlers.org/

You're saying the word blobber doesn't describe anything because a whole bunch of people don't use it. Not a solid argument.

But it doesn't, because it isn't a real thing, it's a forced thing.

No one is being forced to use it. People use it because they like it and it describes a distinct subgenre of rpg.

 

[Bastardchops]

We know Disco Elysium is an RPG because, as Atlantico eloquently puts it, it says so in the box.

You are one stupid sudaco chimp.

The only thing you can vomit out are imaginary arguments that never happened, chimp out over them and have the other simians ook ook and fling shit in glee.

Never once did I claim that what is on the back of a box defines what kind of game it is, but that lends credence to it being a real genre.

Can your chimp brain fathom this? What about the other chimps?

Nobody describes their game as a blobber (unless they're mentally ill; see Clefford) because it isn't a genre. It isn't a thing. You dumb fuck.

Atlantico calm down and quit chimping out.

 

[Bastardchops]

It describes your party moving in a first person perspective as one unit. A blob. That's what it describes.

But it doesn't, I can play Dungeon Master with one character. Then it is no longer a "blobber", because there is no party. Just a single character.

If a game changes categories based on whether you pick one or more characters, yet doesn't change in gameplay, look, feel or any other attribute, then the category in question is pointless, poorly thought out and redundant.

Simple as.

By that standard Baldur's Gate isn't a party based rpg because you can solo it with one character.

 

[Bastardchops]

I can play Doom by just punching people, how is this an First-Person Shooter?

Same brilliant logic.

No that's a strawman, where you write something I didn't write, pretend I wrote it, and then argue against something I never wrote.

It's one of the most common logical fallacies known to the internet.

In fact, seeing as there's no material difference between the gameplay of a Doom that only uses punching and a Doom where you can use both punching and shooting or only shooting, it's literally my point that it is the same game and making up a new category for "punch-only Doom" a "punchie" if you will, is stupid.

Like you are.

Leave the Codex and go play your First Person Punchies.

 

[Atlantico]

Blobbers are is distinct from dungeon crawler since blobbers are party based. A dungeon crawler can just be one character.

There's already a thread for this discussion

Your post has already been discussed and dismissed, since the "party based" definition makes no sense.

Sorry, but you only need to think about it for a couple of seconds, to realize it's a moot point. Anyway, it's all been addressed in the thread.

Leave the Codex and go play your First Person Punchies.

"Blobbers" isn't a genre, as was concluded in the thread about it. So too bad so sad for u

By that standard Baldur's Gate isn't a party based rpg because you can solo it with one character.

I'm definitely on board that it's stupid to try to make a distinct genre for a Baldur's Gate type game with a party or where you only control one character.

Fallout and BG are different genres because of turn based gameplay vs real-time with pause, not because you control a party in one and not the other.

 

[IDtenT]

It has great dungeon and exploration feel.

It does. How that's enough to make it beat "complete" games that have great everything - like Xeen, Wiz7, Pool etc. - is unexplainable. Unless you use that forbidden word on the Codex: nostalgia

Ultima Underworld revolutionized gaming for me.

 

[Bigg Boss]

The only thing I learned from this thread is I need to pay some guy named Dark Underlord so I can rate a fucking Cacodemon.

 

[BarãodoDesterro]

Thats's another interesting point; I still haven't got over the fact that neither UK or American English has an official grammar. The vast majority of languages do have an official regulatory body that defines the standard grammar, and that is what's being taught at school to kids. For example, in Hungary you can go to a bookstore and buy a copy of the current edition of the grammar and even a thesaurus with all the officially recognised words (which is always a bit controversial, but slang is not considered official anyway). I assume the situation is similar in other countries. Whereas in English the best you've got is the myriad of slightly conflicting style guides written by publishing houses and newspapers. Weird.

I'll talk about the place I'm 1% allowed to talk to, even tough I'm an apprentice, Brazil.

Funnily enough, we don't have an official regulatory body.

We have a multilateral treaty in which all the lusophone countries (even observers from Galicia) tried to "cut fat": everyone abandoned their most obscure and strange rules in order to achieve a minimum unity. It was conceived in 1990, but was only decreed, at least here, by 2008; it is tiny and mostly changes spelling.

Then, our not official regulatory body, but somewhat respected, is, actually, a literature academy (based on the French model). The guardians of our Brazilian dialect are, and always have been, romanticists, poets and writers in general. In a way, they would see the language as a tool, not an end in itself. Even the greatest etymologists are, more than less, members of the Academy, and look after their peers.

Which leads to two interesting cases.

I will present one with a real anecdote. There was a famous Portuguese catholic priest and missionary who preached in Brazilian lands during the seventeen century, his sermons are legendary. To this day, it is presented as a masterpiece the excerpt in which he changed the preposition accompanying the verb believe: exactly the same as English, we believe in god (the preposition gives an idea of stillness); the priest, even though knowing it was grammatically uncommon, started to use the equivalent to believe "to" god (meaning the belief, more than a watertight sentiment, should be a constant active posture). He did that only changing a preposition, as that is lauded as incredible.

Now imagine that same romanticists, poets and writers which don't see language as an end in itself: they see, with some merit, the detour in the norm as more interesting than the norm.

The second fact is that the greatest grammars tend to, more than prescribe, describe what our romanticists, poets and writers were doing in the nineteen century. We are prescribing what we once did, but don't do anymore.