sawyer wants rpg to evolve

[Serus]

Bullshit ! Best thing for any crpg is isometric perspective, Tyranny, Poe, F1/2, BG , Diablo like engine , and what is most important a GREAT STORY plus NPC's and C&C resort big enough to hold your balls for at least 50h of gameplay.
Im sick with all that sandbox crap.

Best thing for any crpg is interesting character building, party based, turn based combat and exploration of a well designed world. Add an interesting setting and a story that is not too intrusive but makes sense and you're golden. Frack "great story". It might be there if devs can pull it off but it's secondary to the gameplay.

 

[Luckmann]

uhhh wrong, quality of life features are for casuals

I disagree. Quality of life-improvements are generally neutral.

The problem is that casuals thinks that "quality of life" is essentially a built-in cheat-mode or something where the game plays itself for you. Most often when people cry for "QOL! QOL!" it's about them wanting to cheat, but without being called cheaters.

... most important a GREAT STORY ...

Go read a book if you want "a great story". Narrative design, the act of storytelling, is a lot more important than whatever story is being told.

 

[Sigourn]

Except that 99% of CRPGs already "convey the information to the player" appropriately enough.

"Appropiately enough" is hardly "to the best of the developer's abilities". Why do people complain about Skyrim's consolized interface on the PC, when it works well enough? Because it's hardly the best it could have been. For a long time, as for as long as people are comfortable with "it gets the job done", developers will feel entitled to pull the same crap over and over again. All justified by a fanbase that believe that "making things more comprehensible" equates to "dumbing down".

 

[Serus]

Except that 99% of CRPGs already "convey the information to the player" appropriately enough.

"Appropiately enough" is hardly "to the best of the developer's abilities". Why do people complain about Skyrim's consolized interface on the PC, when it works well enough? Because it's hardly the best it could have been. For a long time, as for as long as people are comfortable with "it gets the job done", developers will feel entitled to pull the same crap over and over again. All justified by a fanbase that believe that "making things more comprehensible" equates to "dumbing down".

Interface is clearly the main reason why Skyrim is so criticized here on the Codex. What i am saying ? Who even cares what Skyrim's interface is ? Or Skyrim at all for that matter. I don't.
Interface is something that is done on a per title basis. Sure, some crpg could use better ones. But that is not the point you were making before. There is no fucking need for cRPG as a genre to "evolve" its interfaces - but that was your original position. They are already adequate, all is needed is the devs to keep some (already existing) standards. Beth can't do even that apparently. No surprise here.

 

[Cross]

Except that 99% of CRPGs already "convey the information to the player" appropriately enough.

"Appropiately enough" is hardly "to the best of the developer's abilities". Why do people complain about Skyrim's consolized interface on the PC, when it works well enough? Because it's hardly the best it could have been. For a long time, as for as long as people are comfortable with "it gets the job done", developers will feel entitled to pull the same crap over and over again. All justified by a fanbase that believe that "making things more comprehensible" equates to "dumbing down".

What does that have to do with your earlier point that cRPGs need to be more accessible? Skyrim's atrocious interface is in fact precisely the result of a developer trying to make their game as accessible as possible for the lowest common denominator.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

No need of the second objective at all. RPG are easy to understand as they are. Always were. Who cares about morons wanting to play - there are games and whole genres for them already. No need for RPG developers wasting time on this shit.

cRPG systems are by their own nature complex and very dense compared to other genres—emphasis on the dense part. It’s easy to throw a bunch of text in the character screen and call it a day because you assume your audience is lettered in the genre, but it is harder to put yourself in the shoes of a person who is not used to this stuff, because we tend to underestimate how long it will take another person to learn something new that we have already mastered.

Some players that never heard about cRPGs before may feel attracted to a game and give it a go. But they will soon find out that they are presumed to know a bunch of stuff they never heard about it. Genuine cRPG developers can't afford to ignore these people, especially because they need to address a younger generation of potential buyers. Besides, there is no excuse for bad presentation and opaque systems. There is no excuse for poorly thought UI. Every player has a right to quality of life gameplay. Complexity is not an excuse for obscurity. Mastering an opaque system doesn’t make you an elite player, because opaque systems shouldn’t exist. This is just a simple fact of good development principles.

That you consider "appropiately conveying information to the player" (essentially what I'm saying by "making easier to understand) as something that only morons would benefit from is, frankly, disturbing.

Exactly, it’s an arrogant and territorial attitude that only makes even more difficult to attract new players.

Sometimes I think that developers treat tutorials and the presentation of systems like AI. It’s important for the enjoyment of the game, but they are left for last like a superfluous thing. I’m a fan of Iron Tower, but they need to improve a lot in that department. You just need to compare Age of Decadence’s tutorial with Banner Saga to see what I’m talking about. This makes an enormous difference for a newbie that is overwhelmed by all the information.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Serus, prosper rating? You are a complete idiot. Do you think it makes you special trying to make your precious cRPGs more difficult for newcomers? It doesn't. It just means that you don't understand the difference between presentation of the mechanics and the mechanics themselves.

 

[Serus]

Serus, prosper rating? You are a complete idiot. Do you think it makes you special trying to make your precious cRPGs more difficult for newcomers? It doesn't. It just means that you don't understand the difference between presentation of the mechanics and the mechanics themselves.

Muh precious straw man ! You are the complete idiot here if you have to use such methods of "argumentation".
Where did I claim that I want to make them "more difficult" to anyone. Please point me.

 

[Sigourn]

Muh precious straw man ! You are the complete idiot here if you have to use such methods of "argumentation".
Where did I claim that I want to make them "more difficult" to anyone. Please point me.

You are definitely implying otherwise by your apparent inability to understand a simple statement. Never did I say Skyrim gets flack solely because of its interface. But its consolized interface is annoying enough that a lot of Codexers have pointed it out as a flaw. Why? Because it's shit compared to something like SkyUI. And let's not forget Skyrim's UI biggest flaw is "size". That is, the font is so big you have to scroll a lot.

Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss hit the spot when it comes to the lack of tutorials in cRPGs. If you are going to make a game that is vastly more complicated than the most mainstream options, it stands to reason that if you want to cater to a bigger market without sacrificing complexity you should at the very least provide a proper tutorial. And no, "read the manual" is not, and will never be, a substitute for a proper tutorial. It is more effective to learn as you play than trying to cram a ton of information with no actual frame of reference (i.e. tooltips as you encounter new mechanics).

 

[JarlFrank]

I disagree. Quality of life-improvements are generally neutral.

The problem is that casuals thinks that "quality of life" is essentially a built-in cheat-mode or something where the game plays itself for you. Most often when people cry for "QOL! QOL!" it's about them wanting to cheat, but without being called cheaters.

Exactly. What retards consider quality of life: map markers for all the quests so you don't have to actually listen to what you're told (HELP I CAN'T FIND CAIUS COSADES!!!) and other cheat-like features that remove the challenge from elements of the game.

Actual quality of life improvements: interface functions that can be clicked with the mouse OR be activated with keyboard hotkeys depending on player's preference, an option to speed up combat animations in turn based games, tooltips that allow you to make informed decisions when building your character etc.

"Appropiately enough" is hardly "to the best of the developer's abilities". Why do people complain about Skyrim's consolized interface on the PC, when it works well enough? Because it's hardly the best it could have been. For a long time, as for as long as people are comfortable with "it gets the job done", developers will feel entitled to pull the same crap over and over again. All justified by a fanbase that believe that "making things more comprehensible" equates to "dumbing down".

You know, the fun thing about Skyrim's shit-tier consolized interface is that Morrowind is this game's predecessor and Morrowind had a GREAT fucking interface.

But dumbing down and the reduction of the interface to something more casual turned it into shit.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Muh precious straw man ! You are the complete idiot here if you have to use such methods of "argumentation".
Where did I claim that I want to make them "more difficult" to anyone. Please point me.

You denied that there is a problem and that everything is clear as it is. 99%of cRPGs throw ALL THE INFORMATION IN ONE SCREEN and you think this way of presenting the information is fine. Sure. Nothing to complain about. If I'm already used to this, then other players have a lot of catch up to do. It is their problem. It is not as if the developers and the genre needed new players. Let's all trust the grognards, those old players that only buy FPSs and play Bethesda games "to see how bad they are". They are enough.

 

[The Wall]

How about Mr. Sawyer two of us make a deal, eh?

RPGs will evolve into action visual novels you desire when you evolve your choice of transport from bike to at least a scooter if car might be few evolutionary steps too high for you.

What's that I hear? B-b-but bikes are bikes, losing all things that make them bikes and makes driving them unique experience can't be made up by only keeping their name and wheels. It will simply be different and no longer a bike.

Mr. Josh, you're proving yourself to be too resistant to change. Get on with the times, at least install autopilot, nitro and engine on that traditional, archaic bike of yours.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

What's that I hear? B-b-but bikes are bikes, losing all things that make them bikes and makes driving them unique experience can't be made up by only keeping their name and wheels. It will simply be different and no longer a bike.

Mr. Josh, you're proving yourself to be too resistant to change. Get on with the times, at least install autopilot, nitro and engine on that traditional, archaic bike of yours.

But bicycles are more progressive. They add no polution, allow you to exercise and have a vegan life.

Spoiler

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

I disagree. Quality of life-improvements are generally neutral.

The problem is that casuals thinks that "quality of life" is essentially a built-in cheat-mode or something where the game plays itself for you. Most often when people cry for "QOL! QOL!" it's about them wanting to cheat, but without being called cheaters.

We need to be careful with words and don't let the retards hijack them with meanings that are not ours.

Some posters here assume that balance means making everything bland and streamlined when the original meaning of the world is challenge, which is precisely the opposite of what Sawyer meant by that term. One of the consequences of this is that having a broken combat system is wrongly assumed as something inherently good or at least expected. And all this because Sawyer and his cretin superficial ideology.

Now people are falling in the trap of thinking that any sort of quality of life feature should be abolished because it is associated with quest markers. Soon we will have no quest journal because writing your own stuff is more hardcore. Nonsense.

 

[The Wall]

But bicycles are more progressive. They add no polution, allow you to exercise and have a vegan life.

Wait until some soyentist comes up with soy fueled car. Progressives will buy 7 of them, one for every day in week and Starbucks will become the biggest chain of soy stations in Soyefornia.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Soyentist, LOL.

 

[Parabalus]

Now people are falling in the trap of thinking that any sort of quality of life feature should be abolished because it is associated with quest markers. Soon we will have no quest journal because writing your own stuff is more hardcore. Nonsense.

Even here on the Codex people flame the QoL improvments of Beamdogs EE games (loading times, level drain rescribing, mouse, area loot, journal, etc. ) since it makes the game less "hardcore". There is so much else to criticize about the EEs (and their business practices) but people fixate on the improvements, seemingly to earn old-school cred.

 

[agentorange]

I think the issue here is that there is a division between "accessibility" in terms of gameplay systems and design elements like user interface (this is ignoring that the word accessible has a pretty murky definition when it comes to games; after all there is basically no bar of accessibility to simply sitting down and getting a game started, aside from some extremely niche games like Aurora. So does accessibility mean how readily each individual mechanic of the game is conveyed to the player?).

Skyrim is a very easy to learn game but the UI is poorly designed. On the other hand Morrowind has a UI that takes far better advantage of the PC (being able to move the windows around, smaller graphics that allow more efficient use of screenspace, etc) but it certainly requires more input from the player in order to learn its various systems. AoD was also brought up and I would say that its UI is perfectly fine as well, I like that all character information is displayed on a single screen and every stat and skill has an explanation (similar to Fallout 1). However the game itself has a reputation for putting off new players because it is quite unlike most other RPGs (although the game does give explicit warning of this, I didn't personally play the tutorial so I don't know how helpful that is).

Easy to play doesn't necessarily have to mean easy to master or necessitate a sacrifice of complexity (anyone can learn the rules of chess and start playing a match in a few minutes, but good luck mastering it), but I can't fault anyone for being against the idea of increased accessibility because time and time again it has gone hand in hand with a dumbing down of systems and depth.

 

[Serus]

Muh precious straw man ! You are the complete idiot here if you have to use such methods of "argumentation".
Where did I claim that I want to make them "more difficult" to anyone. Please point me.

You denied that there is a problem and that everything is clear as it is. 99%of cRPGs throw ALL THE INFORMATION IN ONE SCREEN and you think this way of presenting the information is fine. Sure. Nothing to complain about. If I'm already used to this, then other players have a lot of catch up to do. It is their problem. It is not as if the developers and the genre needed new players. Let's all trust the grognards, those old players that only buy FPSs and play Bethesda games "to see how bad they are". They are enough.

So going from straw man to moving goal posts. That's not what you accused me one post earlier. But there is another straw man here as well.

We need new players. Ones that can understand information that is conveniently presented on one screen. See, I don't share your opinion that interfaces are - in general, there are exceptions of curse - something that cRPG do badly and that it's a barrier for most new players.
I never claimed that I don't want new players at all. That was yet ANOTHER of your straw men you made in that explosion of intellectual diarrhea. And you don't understand why i rated that post as prosperian ?

I still wait for you to point me where did you read in my post that I wanted to make crpgs "more difficult".
Or alternatively you might explain why a person who is able to makes several straw men in such short notice and unable to admit it like yourself - is worth taking seriously ?

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

AoD was also brought up and I would say that its UI is perfectly fine as well, I like that all character information is displayed on a single screen and every stat and skill has an explanation (similar to Fallout 1). However the game itself has a reputation for putting off new players because it is quite unlike most other RPGs (although the game does give explicit warning of this, I didn't personally play the tutorial so I don't know how helpful that is).

I have no complaints about the character screen, but the first explanation they provide in your first fight is a mess. Especially because you have a bad camera, a ridiculous small tavern room, and that monstruoisity of unecessary button.

I think that the problem of most games lies in the assumption that all the information about the mechanics and gameplay should be conveyed purely by text; although in theory that is true, in practice you only put people off. Developers need to invest on detailed tutorials that talk with the player, especially the harder ones. You can see this on steam. Players shitting on the game and after being schooled by the developer and players acknowledge that the game is interesting. Saying that it is different is not enough, you need to show them, and convince them of your mindset by showing them how they can win once they master the system. This is easly said than done, but it is a battle that should be acknowledged.

 

[mondblut]

Exactly, it’s an arrogant and territorial attitude that only makes even more difficult to attract new players.

Fuck new players

 

[fantadomat]

But bicycles are more progressive. They add no polution, allow you to exercise and have a vegan life.

Wait until some soyentist comes up with soy fueled car. Progressives will buy 7 of them, one for every day in week and Starbucks will become the biggest chain of soy stations in Soyefornia.

Fuck,if only i was an engineer i could have made a nice ripoff from such a nice idea.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Even here on the Codex people flame the QoL improvments of Beamdogs EE games (loading times, level drain rescribing, mouse, area loot, journal, etc. ) since it makes the game less "hardcore". There is so much else to criticize about the EEs (and their business practices) but people fixate on the improvements, seemingly to earn old-school cred.

I think some players (myself included) are biased by confusing the game with the developers. If we (hate) like the image they present, we will (hate) praise their games no matter what. I can’t express enough how annoying those Larian updates look to me, but most players love Swen Vincke’s figure, he is charismatic. On the other hand, if you have a bunch of SJW types that despise their target audience, well, good luck trying convince them in an objective manner of your superior design because they don’t give a fuck.

That being said, there is also something to be said about the relationship between the developers’ personalities and personal believes and their design approaches. Swen’s games reflect his mindset: a humorous writing that don’t take itself seriously, puts replayability over challenge, etc., whereas let’s say, Vault Dwellers games are dry as a ice and cut all your “I want to be free” bullshit. Maybe you can make also a genealogy here and extract how their values affect their design approaches.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Exactly, it’s an arrogant and territorial attitude that only makes even more difficult to attract new players.

Fuck new sales

Fixed.

 

[mondblut]

Exactly, it’s an arrogant and territorial attitude that only makes even more difficult to attract new players.

Fuck new sales

Fixed.

Desire for sales is the one true driving force of decline.