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Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

grotsnik

Arcane
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
1,671
Admiral jimbob said:
One problem I'm having is that the game is definitely more addictive than it is actually enjoyable. I can't stop playing and it's more compulsive than anything.

This is interesting - so many of the reviews I've read of Skyrim have been far less focused on the nuts and bolts of the game and more an excited chronicling of the reviewer's sensational experience; 'first I did this, then I fought some giants, then I got married, then I did this, then I did this..'

'Iimmersion' gets constantly thrown around these days as a positive (as if it's a primary requirement of games these days that they provide a believable alternative to reality) but I find myself increasingly thinking that it's quite the opposite. Good games need to be engaging, sure, in any one of a number of ways that a game can be engaging, of which immersion is only one - but I can't help feeling that this compulsive, usually first-person, 'lose yourself in the game' experience makes you take less note of the mechanical flaws, because you're too involved, too lacking in detachment, to analyse them in the moment - unless they're so glaring as to break the spell.
 
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At the same time, shadows are always the first thing that I turn down, I don't give a shit about them. So for me, it's not an issue. The worst was in DKS, the shadows were really dragging everything down.
 
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grotsnik said:
Admiral jimbob said:
One problem I'm having is that the game is definitely more addictive than it is actually enjoyable. I can't stop playing and it's more compulsive than anything.

This is interesting - so many of the reviews I've read of Skyrim have been far less focused on the nuts and bolts of the game and more an excited chronicling of the reviewer's sensational experience; 'first I did this, then I fought some giants, then I got married, then I did this, then I did this..'

'Iimmersion' gets constantly thrown around these days as a positive (as if it's a primary requirement of games these days that they provide a believable alternative to reality) but I find myself increasingly thinking that it's quite the opposite. Good games need to be engaging, sure, in any one of a number of ways that a game can be engaging, of which immersion is only one - but I can't help feeling that this compulsive, usually first-person, 'lose yourself in the game' experience makes you take less note of the mechanical flaws, because you're too involved, too lacking in detachment, to analyse them in the moment - unless they're so glaring as to break the spell.

Well I don't know mate, I come from the Wasteland/Ultima IV days on C64 and everything was slow and painful so mechanical flaws these days are pretty much smooth for me. Just play fucking U5 on a C64 and change the disk each time you search a wall, I think you'll be much more complaining about mechanical flaws.
 

Admiral jimbob

gay as all hell
Joined
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truck stops and toilet stalls
Wasteland 2
Will try lowering the shadows when I get home, worth a shot.

Rod Rodderson said:
Commissar Draco said:
He rebels against Empire ruled by Nords and Cyro-Nords while there is this Huge Elven Dominion wanting to conquer and enslave all Humanity?
Oh, the Thalmor don't want to enslave humanity. They want to erase it.

It's a step toward returning to the divinity of before Mundus's creation. That's also why they forced Talos worship to cease. No one believes in him, he ceases to exist, and unfetters Auriel (as Talos is Lorkhan and is the other side of that relationship). Time returns to the way it was before, Mundus is destroyed, Lorkhan's buggery is undone, and everyone is immortal again.

For those who care.
Any good sources for the updated lore, is it up to scratch? It's an aspect I loved in Morrowind, and they seem to be on the ball with it again, but I'm finding the books pretty randomly scattered. Remind me of the Talos-Lorkhan relationship?
 

Data4

Arcane
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Over there.
Admiral jimbob said:
Will try lowering the shadows when I get home, worth a shot.

Rod Rodderson said:
Commissar Draco said:
He rebels against Empire ruled by Nords and Cyro-Nords while there is this Huge Elven Dominion wanting to conquer and enslave all Humanity?
Oh, the Thalmor don't want to enslave humanity. They want to erase it.

It's a step toward returning to the divinity of before Mundus's creation. That's also why they forced Talos worship to cease. No one believes in him, he ceases to exist, and unfetters Auriel (as Talos is Lorkhan and is the other side of that relationship). Time returns to the way it was before, Mundus is destroyed, Lorkhan's buggery is undone, and everyone is immortal again.

For those who care.
Any good sources for the updated lore, is it up to scratch? It's an aspect I loved in Morrowind, and they seem to be on the ball with it again, but I'm finding the books pretty randomly scattered. Remind me of the Talos-Lorkhan relationship?

They could have just been Nord/Skyrim-centric books from the previous games, but I've read a few that have Kirkbride's tell-tale style. Dude's a prick, but he does seem to go all out on writing from within the world of the fiction. I've read so many books that I couldn't name any specific ones, sorry. I've been hoarding all the unique books I find with plans to go through and read them all at some point. Even the ones I've already read from Morrowind. I just really get into it. Back when I played MW when it was still fresh, I would consider spending 2 or more hours in the library in Vivec doing nothing but reading as time well spent in the game.
 
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Admiral jimbob said:
Any good sources for the updated lore, is it up to scratch? It's an aspect I loved in Morrowind, and they seem to be on the ball with it again, but I'm finding the books pretty randomly scattered. Remind me of the Talos-Lorkhan relationship?
From what I've gathered, the lore in the books is pretty solid (though there aren't too many new ones, it seems) but the main quest plays it a little loose (though I suppose MK will appear in a short while, write something cryptic, and everything will be at least acceptable again, as tends to happen). The Book of the Dragonborn is a nice piece, and legitimatizes parts of the Nu-Mantia Intercept (like the towers). The Great War is a bit of history.

As for the relationship between Talos and Lorkhan, it's in the way that Talos became a god. Tiber Septim, Zurin Arctus, and Wulfharth mimicked events after the creation of Mundus and mantled Lorkhan, becoming him, or an aspect of him (like the relation between Lorkhan, Shor, and Shezarr, or Auriel, Alduin, and Akatosh). Talos is a bit more than Imperial propaganda put him (i.e., more than just Tiber Septim ascendant). (See The Arcturian Heresy for the story. Note that it is a heretical view, hence the name, but it makes sense. And the alternative is boring and therefore wrong, as tends to be the way.)
 

Admiral jimbob

gay as all hell
Joined
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truck stops and toilet stalls
Wasteland 2
Yeah, I'm definitely picking up some MK vibes, which is good. I'd heard he was back on lore, but he also did some of Oblivion's, so I took that with a pinch of salt - thankfully, it looks like they brought him back for more than just writing some retarded speeches. I'm eagerly slurping down any and all material on the aftermath of Morrowind that I can find, of which there seems to be a hell of a lot - even found an interview with Vivec that's set at the time Morrowind's events were progressing, which is a nice touch.

EDIT: thanks for the refresher Rod :thumbsup: any idea what the "official" take is on Camoran's speech about Nirn being Lorkhan's Daedric sphere? I vaguely recall MK implying it to have been bullshit.
 

Data4

Arcane
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Over there.
I figured I'd pop into the TES Lore Forum and I found an interesting bit about the Companions (Skyrim's Fighter's Guild). They have ties to Ysgramor, including their guild hall, which I thought looked... odd. Here's a book for reference. The guild hall is rather... nautical in appearance, albeit inverted.
 

crufty

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Glassworks
The lore in skyrim is pretty ace. Jimbob not sure where you stand but as you spiral out there is good reading in obvious spots. I remember mw books being kinda zzzz. There are some decent tales.

I do note a lack of silver weapons, and metal based allergy / immunity. The quirk / flaws could be brought back, that would add some spice to the rpg aspect.

Metal immunity on vampires would have been nice. It seems strange that I can slit the throat of a vampire w a steel dagger or plunk a novice vamp with a nord arrow. Also think some monsters (vamps and otHer high level undead$) should have sneak immunity. Yeah it would make certain areas a real bitch.

Skulking through bandit lairs and assisinating everyone is exactly how it should be. I look at bandit lairs as open dungeons of sorts.

The radiant ai is actually adding some cool things to the game. People walking from village to town, a long ways away, nobles leaving a court, or folks entering their shop at the right time. People going to the tavern. Solitude quests ESP, pretty cool.

On the console the gui is pretty swank. I do think a char sheet would be nice. A lot of quests do tell you where the dungeon is. But some do not.

The item scaling and monster leveling is present. So people getting whacked by wolves, later you just get whacked by ice trolls. Trolls are infinitely tougher because of their damn regen.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
Speaking of lore, I read "The great war" and all the time they described that great epic battles going on while the staggering empire tried to defend itself against the Aldmeri, I could not help but think of the way Cyrodiil was presented in Oblivion.

It just felt so tiny and amusement park-like in Oblivion that I absolutely could not imagine that stuff taking place there.
 

Mayday

Augur
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Poland
I'm enjoying the lore (some new stuff and some old stuff I'm discovering thanks to the game). I'm also- surprisingly enough enjoying the atmosphere.

Sadly, I'm NOT enjoying the shit-quests. I know they were in all previous ES games but I think at this point I've just really had enough. And in fact, I had a fantastic idea- let's list them all in one place as another way to show the glaring laziness of the questdevs. Mind you, I've only started playing so if some of the stuff develops further later on, just tell me to cross it out.

Whiterun:
-take a sword from the smith to her father- simply walk from her house to the nearby keep
-enter a catacomb, kill a couple of skeletons and bring back an amulet lying on a table to a priest outside
 

Mayday

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The war with the elves is over
and as for morrowind: all of Vvanderfell was destroyed due to some shenanigans with the Ministry of Truth (it collapsed and made the Red Mountain aslpode)
 
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I have to say, Whiterun's sense of community kicks the shit out of anything from Oblivion. I woke up in the morning and exited the Inn to wander around for awhile. Folks arguing, people running the stalls calling out to passersby, etc, etc. And almost none of it is the 'hey, how are you', *insert mudcrabs*, 'horrible, well I have to go' crap. You know the hype videos Todd and co put out before Oblivion's release, with the town that was so much more lively and dynamic than what we got? This is quite a bit closer to that. Somebody put some Gothic in my Elder Scrolls. Best move they could have made.


Not sure how to feel about one aspect of it, though. I came upon some old Grey-Mane woman bitching at the head of the Battle-Born about her missing son, and right before he responded he looked at me and said "Can you believe this lady?"

On the one hand, he seemed to me like a guy who would go that extra step to pile ridicule on someone if he had an audience, but on the other hand it could have been some transparent attempt to get me to talk to them and get involved. I left to go talk to the Jarl, so who knows.





Anyway, I feel the same about shadows as Beautiful Clown Painting. I actually turned them off altogether in the ini and then boosted some of the other settings.
 
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Mayday said:
The war with the elves is over
and as for morrowind: all of Vvanderfell was destroyed due to some shenanigans with the Ministry of Truth (it collapsed and made the Red Mountain aslpode)

And then the Argonians used Sneak Attack and got a critical damage bonus against them.
 

Mayday

Augur
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Oh yeah, they invaded the south. Hmm. So is there pretty much no Dunmer state now?
Is the Nerevarine, perchance, still alive?

EDIT: Haha, no, he never returned from Akavir. Welp, tough luck, Dunmers!
 

attackfighter

Magister
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
2,307
Genma:TheDestroyer said:
I have to say, Whiterun's sense of community kicks the shit out of anything from Oblivion. I woke up in the morning and exited the Inn to wander around for awhile. Folks arguing, people running the stalls calling out to passersby, etc, etc. And almost none of it is the 'hey, how are you', *insert mudcrabs*, 'horrible, well I have to go' crap. You know the hype videos Todd and co put out before Oblivion's release, with the town that was so much more lively and dynamic than what we got? This is quite a bit closer to that. Somebody put some Gothic in my Elder Scrolls. Best move they could have made.

If you think Whiterun has good community you've never been to Flotsam.
 

Gord

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I created an Dunmer thief/mage something character and wondered who he reminded me of - then it struck me, I had created an Dunmer Jensen...
 

Mayday

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Actually I was pretty disappointed with flotsam!

Apart from the guv'ner and the guys from the fisstech quest, I don't recall any memorable characters. It was also very annoying to me how the same background conversations were played every time I passed specific people. On and on and on...
Oh unless you cound the community outside of Flotsam as part of the town itself. That was ok.
 
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attackfighter said:
Genma:TheDestroyer said:
I have to say, Whiterun's sense of community kicks the shit out of anything from Oblivion. I woke up in the morning and exited the Inn to wander around for awhile. Folks arguing, people running the stalls calling out to passersby, etc, etc. And almost none of it is the 'hey, how are you', *insert mudcrabs*, 'horrible, well I have to go' crap. You know the hype videos Todd and co put out before Oblivion's release, with the town that was so much more lively and dynamic than what we got? This is quite a bit closer to that. Somebody put some Gothic in my Elder Scrolls. Best move they could have made.

If you think Whiterun has good community you've never been to Flotsam.

Nope, I'm still piddling around in the early section of the game.
 

ricolikesrice

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
1,231
No. So I'll ask the expert.
Tell me, Horsy, how dumb is it to register on RPGcodex just to defend Skrym?

I always thought stuff like that was extremely stupid, but perhaps the expert will convince me otherwise.

well to be fair:

it sure looks like a big part of the active codex population nowadays were the twitcher defence squad back in the day. if its extremely stupid to register on an RPG site to defend a RPG (shit or not, dunno, i havent played skyrim ) how stupid is it to register on an RPG site to defend an action adventure ? :lol:

edit: as for skyrim, i ll give it a chance (since reasonable reviews sound like a proper morrowind sequel including its many flaws ) when i dont have other games to play and more importantly some good rebalancing mods are out since all it takes to determine the magic system is shit is a look at the wikia.
 

KevinV12000

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Some Lame-ass International Organization
Here is my review:

While most reviews start with the basics, you already know that stuff. So, let’s get right to it.

MINOR SPOILERS AHEAD.

Atmosphere and Story: While an improvement over Oblivion, the world of Skyrim is still much too devoid of life, personality and spirit. Some of this arises from major cities having between 15-20 buildings and being so small as to be completely crossed in under a few minutes, but not all of it. The cities and towns of The Witcher are similarly small, but somehow seem much more alive by comparison.

The Nordic theme has been praised to date, but let’s be honest: the Nordic theme is pretty darn cool in real life. It doesn’t mark some triumph of art direction to look at real, existing Nordic design and transpose it to a virtual world. And even by that standard, it’s been done better. Vanguard’s Varanjar and their home city of Halgarad used a similar theme and are much more....majestic...than that found in Skyrim.

The story is a rehash of the Chosen One theme, though the mechanism of words of power and dragon souls is well done. Certainly, finding a word of power is one of the highlights of the game.

As has happened too often in the Elder Scrolls series, scripted events and NPC actions happen much too independently of main quest events, causing an unnecessary sequence of confusion. Two quick examples. First, after escaping from the first dragon attack, your companion gives you a lead on where to head for help and then tells you very clearly that the two of you need to split up. Yet, the game is clearly designed for the main character to remain with this sidekick to the first town, and if you follow the clear guidance to split up you will miss out of an introduction into the first quest area and one of the game’s main features, the guardian stones. Second, upon your return to Whiterun after felling the first dragon opponent, a mighty shout is heard throughout the heavens, summoning you to a sacred location. Unfortunately, a minor dialog between some Redguards and town guards occurs at the same time, as well as the standard Elder Scrolls NPC greeting-by-proximity from another set of town guards, resulting in three things happening at once, none of which elicit any response or reaction from anyone whatsoever.

Graphics: The graphics are serviceable, but are nothing especially noteworthy, with the possible exception of the aurora borealis in the night sky. In some places, most notably in snow-covered stone or wood, it retreats to Ultima Underworld level, inexplicably.

UI: Remarkably, the UI makes you long for the days of Oblivion. Which, when you really think about it, may be Bethesda’s most remarkable feat to date.

Combat: The combat marks a strong improvement over earlier Elder Scrolls titles. Being able to use a shield in real-time to block, bash or screen is a very immersive feeling and more than once I’ve felt like I was in a real fight for my life. I especially like that a shield block doesn’t automatically mean you take no damage at all, a nice benefit for those who like to use slow but powerful two-handed weapons.

Magic is very well done, with the conjuration spells especially having a real feel to them. One test character I made focused on conjuration and raising zombie bandits on the fly during a pitched battle was not only a cool experience, but a very markedly different experience from the same fight as experienced by my war-axe-and-shield Nord warrior. Combat is fun, immersive and visceral.

One problem that should be addressed via a patch, however, is the weakness of ranged combat. I’ve had three enemy archers draw a bead on a lightly-armored character and he barely felt it.

Character Development: A real weakness in the game, once again making one wish to return to the days of Oblivion. Each character is interchangeable, with the Orc and the Breton each as likely to pick up heavy armor vs magic, though some inherent abilities do shape the character as more suitable to a given role. I suppose one could characterize this as “freedom,” but to me it takes a lot of the charm out of it.

The “perk” system is generic and lacks even a quarter of the personality of the perk system in Fallout. Want a heavy fighter? Choose upgrades on the Heavy Armor skill to watch your armor rating go up 20% per rank. Want a mage? Choose upgrades on Destruction and cast those spells for half price. It’s all very predictable and never seems to involve any tradeoffs.

I understand the attraction of a skill-based system, but to keep one while doing away with classes or core skills really renders much of the development meaningless. It also significantly reduces the attractiveness of side-quests.

Crafting: Crafting, including alchemy and enchanting, is quite fun, though simple. Spending perk points in areas like Smthing results in very significant increases in ability. The system won’t please people seeking any complexity, but it is a nice enough side-game.

Bottom Line:
A solid C+

A serviceable game, but nothing exceptional or noteworthy, with flashes of brilliance overshadowed by a lifeless game world, unresponsive NPCs and cookie-cutter main characters.
 

attackfighter

Magister
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
2,307
Mayday said:
Actually I was pretty disappointed with flotsam!

Apart from the guv'ner and the guys from the fisstech quest, I don't recall any memorable characters. It was also very annoying to me how the same background conversations were played every time I passed specific people. On and on and on...
Oh unless you cound the community outside of Flotsam as part of the town itself. That was ok.

Yeah I meant Flotsam and the surrounding community. Also I'd count recurring characters like Roche, Sile de Tanserville and Ves (from the blue stripes) as adding merit to the locale, since their interractions during their stay there were quite memorable.

But the main reason I bring up Flotsam is because of all the busywork the locals were up to. You had a tavern full of men arm wrestling, gambling, drinking and much more. You had peasants gathering reeds, fishing, foraging, smithing and (again) much more. It was a very active town and completely blow Whiterun out of the water in regards to mimicking actual town life.
 

kasmas

Educated
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Messages
111
can we have a let's play video series by a senior codexer ?
so far it is a 0/10 for me but i maybe missing something
 

Black

Arcane
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May 8, 2007
Messages
1,872,803
What I find very amusing and pathetic at the same time is how suddenly "better than oblivion" became new catch-phrase once skyrim came out. Of course it's a sequel to Oblivion and it's normal to compare it to its predecessor but it seems like many of you don't realize that saying "better than oblivion" says NOTHING about its quality. Last time I checked, Oblivion was a horrible piece of turd, an example of how not to make games, so allow me to be a little sceptical when I hear "yeah, this here sucks but hey, it's better than in Oblivion!"
Has Oblivion become a point 0 of video game quality? 0 and below- shit, above 0- good stuff, should play?
I honestly would like to hear what is GOOD about Skyrim, not in "better than in oblivion or fallout 3" (because they both are amazing examples of good games, right?) but what does it actually do good on its own. What of its story, quest design, music, characters, graphics, animations, style, character development, stability or anything else that's present in the game?
Because, sad as it may be to many of you, if you can only say "better than oblivion" about all those features, then I'm afraid you're playing a bad game. Diarrhoea isn't as bad as cancer but it sure as hell isn't fun to have.
So far from what I've read on the Codex alone it seems like it's a "good for what it is game about walking around and doing nothing". And if so many people here are fine with that and amused by it, then I'd seriously consider if you're not video game junkies, not waiting for any good games, just waiting for another time-consumer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BrhEW22QnQ - do you want this to be in your memory, Codexers?
 

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