Gold Box SSI's Gold Box Series Thread

[Cael]

My standard party is 1 Knight + 5 Qualinesti F/C/M (all Kiri-Jolith), but I know the games backwards, so it is easier for me to swing this kind of party.

You did realize that I was not writing about DQK, did you?
Such a party would be the most boring ever for me. What's the whole point of having a bunch of different races, classes, cleric types if one picks such a lame party? Could have saved the makers of the game a lot of trouble putting in all the different bonuses and spell books!

Have you played such a party? Try it on the hardest difficulty and come back and tell us about it.

 

[Jo498]

No, I haven't. Why should I? It is far from optimal for any of these games. They advance too slowly in the first game, the clerics are too low a level in the second game for effective turning and for the last game they might be very convenient in some ways because everybody can do almost everything and wear any armor. But unless strongly modified and very carefully advanced the triple classes will have relatively few Hps, so I'd prefer another high hp fighter type as second dragonlance wielder (but I overall don't like DQK enough to play it again.)
But you knew this already if you have played the games so many times, so I don't need to tell you. And still managed to miss my point that most people enjoy having a more diverse party

 

[Cael]

No, I haven't. Why should I? It is far from optimal for any of these games. They advance too slowly in the first game, the clerics are too low a level in the second game for effective turning and for the last game they might be very convenient in some ways because everybody can do almost everything and wear any armor. But unless strongly modified and very carefully advanced the triple classes will have relatively few Hps, so I'd prefer another high hp fighter type as second dragonlance wielder (but I overall don't like DQK enough to play it again.)
But you knew this already if you have played the games so many times, so I don't need to tell you. And still managed to miss my point that most people enjoy having a more diverse party

And you missed my point entirely because you are so fixated on only your way of playing that you are completely dismissive of any other way of playing.

 

[ProphetSword]

My standard party is 1 Knight + 5 Qualinesti F/C/M (all Kiri-Jolith), but I know the games backwards, so it is easier for me to swing this kind of party.

Wouldn’t this create an issue where none of the elves could be raised from the dead? How do you work around that?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Save scumming.

 

[Cael]

My standard party is 1 Knight + 5 Qualinesti F/C/M (all Kiri-Jolith), but I know the games backwards, so it is easier for me to swing this kind of party.

Wouldn’t this create an issue where none of the elves could be raised from the dead? How do you work around that?

Until you get Resurrection, you can't. That's the challenge (along with lower levels, lower hp, etc.), which the guy didn't get because you can only play the game his way.

EDIT: Damnit, you guys are making me nostalgic enough to want to play the entire Krynn series again. The question becomes: My usual party or LP it out?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Just Kender and 1 Knight.

 

[Cael]

Just Kender and 1 Knight.

Standard party it is!

 

[Null Null]

I've verified that yes, Kenders can cast level 6 spells (which is just heal because Krynn doesn't allow evil spells like Harm, and they hadn't coded in Blade Barrier yet) in Death Knights, which they appear to have fixed in Dark Queen.
The advantage of the elf ranger is not actually the ranger himself (though there are a few giants near the end of Dark Queen he's useful for), but that elves have unlimited advancement as rangers but not as fighers. So it matters in Dark Queen.
Dwarves have unlimited advancement as fighters (not rangers), but are limited to 10 as clerics. So it doesn't really make sense to make dwarf fighter/clerics if you're going through all three.

There are all kinds of tradeoffs depending on whether you want to bring a party through or play each game to the fullest.

If you want to ace Champions, there's more than enough to hit the level caps, so Knight/Kender C/T/elf C/F/Ms x4 is perfectly rational. Indeed, the extra fireballs will make your life easier. Try to take them all the way through and you will have awful problems in Dark Queen dealing with magic resistance, not to mention they'll have maxed out at 14 as fighters.
If you want to ace Death Knights, you want four clerics to turn all those undead. Multiclassing all those mages will cause problems in the next game, again. You also can't make a Paladin in Champions, so if you want one (to turn undead) you'll have to add them in here.
If you want to ace Dark Queen, you want two single-classed mages to punch through magic resistance. At least one of those slots should go to a mutliclass cleric in Death. You also need a thief at one point to complete the game.

People not into powergaming, from what I've seen, tend to stress having a variety of characters. After the Kender Cleric/Thief and Knight, you can do a few different things...


I suppose these differences of opinion are what make these things fun after all these years.

 

[Cael]

Thing is, after level 14 fighter, there is really no point to extra fighter levels. Same with Ranger level 15. If you want to have 650k XP/level, you really might as well go with another Knight or even a Paladin at half the XP/level, while a triple class Red mage is only 660k/level (or was it 600k? I forgot).

You don't need a thief to complete the entire series. That is the main problem with the Krynn series, unfortunately. Thieves are pretty redundant. The only place you must have them is Dave's Challenge, and even then it just makes your life much easier.

If you want a thief, go with a Elf Fighter/Thief. It would still be better than a Kender C/T.

 

[Desiderius]

Ah, Dave's Challenge. Imagine finding that shit on your own pre-interweb.

WTF!

Why was I even in the top corner of the map?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Yeah, I did and expected it after Death Knights seemed so weird and large. I loved the extra little maps since FR in Pools and Curse.

Best to build a group of fighters, knight, Paladin get to lvl 39 then class change to your wizards, clerics, rogue, etc. Mix it up. Upon that sweet sweet lvl 40 you'll be mega dual-classed. Nothing like a mage who wields his sword slapping around dragons then meteor swarming the hell out of others. I think you get to where you break the MR of enemy mobs like the FR & dark/drow elves.

 

[Desiderius]

Skomp is still my fav tho. Didn't expect all those Blue Dragons!

 

[Erebus]

I favor Rangers over Fighters because it feels like they tend to have more HP. However, that may just be a false impression (looking at the rules, there's no reason why a high-level Ranger should have more HP than a high-level Fighter on average). I once had a Ranger with 255 HP in Dark Queen of Krynn, but that was probably a bug.

In any case, having a single-classed warrior with a lot of HP (and a good Thac0) is a very good idea, because dragonlances inflict as many points of damage to dragons as the wielder has HP. Knights are not ideal dragonlance wielders, because they gain levels more slowly than rangers or fighters (only slighty more slowly for Knights of the Crown, but they don't get access to clerical spells and their leadership ability is weaker than it is for Knights of the Sword/Rose).

 

[octavius]

A Dwarf Fighter with 19 CON is the ultime Dragonlance wielder.

 

[Cael]

Yeah, I did and expected it after Death Knights seemed so weird and large. I loved the extra little maps since FR in Pools and Curse.

Best to build a group of fighters, knight, Paladin get to lvl 39 then class change to your wizards, clerics, rogue, etc. Mix it up. Upon that sweet sweet lvl 40 you'll be mega dual-classed. Nothing like a mage who wields his sword slapping around dragons then meteor swarming the hell out of others. I think you get to where you break the MR of enemy mobs like the FR & dark/drow elves.

Just a warning for people not used to Krynn: You can't dual-class in Krynn.

 

[Cael]

A Dwarf Fighter with 19 CON is the ultime Dragonlance wielder.

Doesn't mean much. Dragon max out at about 88 hp, unless it is that boss in DQK.

 

[Desiderius]

A Dwarf Fighter with 19 CON is the ultime Dragonlance wielder.

Doesn't mean much. Dragon max out at about 88 hp, unless it is that boss in DQK.

That was one ugly boss. Only memory I have of that game.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Yeah, I did and expected it after Death Knights seemed so weird and large. I loved the extra little maps since FR in Pools and Curse.

Best to build a group of fighters, knight, Paladin get to lvl 39 then class change to your wizards, clerics, rogue, etc. Mix it up. Upon that sweet sweet lvl 40 you'll be mega dual-classed. Nothing like a mage who wields his sword slapping around dragons then meteor swarming the hell out of others. I think you get to where you break the MR of enemy mobs like the FR & dark/drow elves.

Just a warning for people not used to Krynn: You can't dual-class in Krynn.

Pretty sure I did it in DQOK. Maybe I'm mixing it up with POD, but damn thought I did. It was a DL I found on web though rather from disk so maybe it was hacked. Dunno, I'd have to boot up my gog copy.

 

[Erebus]

A Dwarf Fighter with 19 CON is the ultime Dragonlance wielder.

Doesn't mean much. Dragon max out at about 88 hp, unless it is that boss in DQK.

Death dragons in DQK have 120 HP.

Also, the damage inflicted by a dragonlance is equal to the wielder's current HP, not his maximum HP. If the wielder only has a few HP left, the dragonlance becomes nearly useless.

 

[Cael]

A Dwarf Fighter with 19 CON is the ultime Dragonlance wielder.

Doesn't mean much. Dragon max out at about 88 hp, unless it is that boss in DQK.

Death dragons in DQK have 120 HP.

Also, the damage inflicted by a dragonlance is equal to the wielder's current HP, not his maximum HP. If the wielder only has a few HP left, the dragonlance becomes nearly useless.

That is true. In DQK, though, if you let one dragon breathe, you are pretty much boned, because all the rest will follow in short order. When facing 20+ dragons at a time, you have to drop that number down fast before your party's turn ends, because if a few survive the second round would be... problematic. DBFs become the mainstay of my dragon-clearing by the time DQK comes along. Before that, I rely on Stinking Cloud. The dragonlance only is worth using in a few specific circumstances where you are facing just one undead type dragon that you can reach and attack in 1 round or magic-immune ones (e.g., Dave's challenge).

 

[Erebus]

In DQK, though, if you let one dragon breathe, you are pretty much boned, because all the rest will follow in short order. When facing 20+ dragons at a time, you have to drop that number down fast before your party's turn ends, because if a few survive the second round would be... problematic. DBFs become the mainstay of my dragon-clearing by the time DQK comes along. Before that, I rely on Stinking Cloud. The dragonlance only is worth using in a few specific circumstances where you are facing just one undead type dragon that you can reach and attack in 1 round or magic-immune ones (e.g., Dave's challenge).

Some types of dragon breath are really dangerous. Green dragon breath is likely to hit the entire party and inflicts fairly high damage (but I think that its range is fairly limited). Blue dragon breath has a long range, it inflicts 80 points of damage to a target who fails his saving throw, and it can hit a character twice if a wall is nearby.

The other three aren't as deadly. Red dragon breath is fire (they also love to cast Fireball) and all your characters should be protected by Resist Fire most of the time. The breath attacks of white and black dragons aren't especially impressive in DQK. Besides, black dragons are more likely to cast Magic Missile than to use their breath weapon and white dragons are pretty rare in the game.

As for the less common types of dragons : the breath weapon of Death Dragons can inflict very high damage, while the breath weapon of Sea Dragons is about the same as green dragon breath (but the damages it inflicts are probably a bit higher).


I remember only two fights in which you have to fight more than 10 dragons : one happens when you leave the village of Bai'or in the south, the other one is the very last fight in the game. I agree that the DBF is the best way to deal with most of the dragons, but your wizards won't always be the first to act. Having two guys with dragonlances you can send after the most dangerous dragons (especially the blues) can really be a lifesaver.

 

[octavius]

And if they are Hasted they can potentially kill four dragons in a round, or eight if they have good morale (ooops, been playing too much HoMM 3 lately).

 

[Cael]

In DQK, though, if you let one dragon breathe, you are pretty much boned, because all the rest will follow in short order. When facing 20+ dragons at a time, you have to drop that number down fast before your party's turn ends, because if a few survive the second round would be... problematic. DBFs become the mainstay of my dragon-clearing by the time DQK comes along. Before that, I rely on Stinking Cloud. The dragonlance only is worth using in a few specific circumstances where you are facing just one undead type dragon that you can reach and attack in 1 round or magic-immune ones (e.g., Dave's challenge).

Some types of dragon breath are really dangerous. Green dragon breath is likely to hit the entire party and inflicts fairly high damage (but I think that its range is fairly limited). Blue dragon breath has a long range, it inflicts 80 points of damage to a target who fails his saving throw, and it can hit a character twice if a wall is nearby.

The other three aren't as deadly. Red dragon breath is fire (they also love to cast Fireball) and all your characters should be protected by Resist Fire most of the time. The breath attacks of white and black dragons aren't especially impressive in DQK. Besides, black dragons are more likely to cast Magic Missile than to use their breath weapon and white dragons are pretty rare in the game.

As for the less common types of dragons : the breath weapon of Death Dragons can inflict very high damage, while the breath weapon of Sea Dragons is about the same as green dragon breath (but the damages it inflicts are probably a bit higher).


I remember only two fights in which you have to fight more than 10 dragons : one happens when you leave the village of Bai'or in the south, the other one is the very last fight in the game. I agree that the DBF is the best way to deal with most of the dragons, but your wizards won't always be the first to act. Having two guys with dragonlances you can send after the most dangerous dragons (especially the blues) can really be a lifesaver.

If the dragons move before you, you are already dead if you rely on dragonlances. DBF doesn't have the current hp restriction. In both cases you have to move first. Taking multiple or even 2 80-hp breath weapons to the face is game over even for max hp fighters.

Incidentally, IIRC to the statement that started this discussion, there is no functional difference between a 19 con dwarf and a 18 con anyone else Fighter. They both get +4 hp per die.

 

[Harlin]

I've updated the Pool of Radiance longform walkthrough to version 1.3: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/564785-pool-of-radiance/faqs/73869

Changes:

• I overhauled the script that generates monster statistics. There is more information, and most of the mistakes from the days when I added statistics by hand should be gone. (The AI I wrote was a little bit too intelligent -- the real Pool of Radiance AI favors studded leather armor over Bracers AC 6 for ... reasons.)
• There is more accurate information on how much XP money and items give. That's also now part of the monster statistic generator script.
• All placed magically charged treasure now mentions how many charges it starts with.
• The spellcasting delay adjustment is actually division by 3, not 2. That makes spellcasting significantly more powerful than it is in the tabletop game. (So even though Stinking Cloud has a tabletop game delay of 2 ... that gets divided by 3, then rounded down to 0, so it actually has no delay in the Gold Box games.)
• There are now instructions on how to modify spellcasting delay, in case you want something closer to the actual tabletop rules. (It'll significantly alter game balance, of course.)
• I've added how AI spellcasting priority works.
• With both spellcasting delay and AI priority not obvious and not in the manual, I've added a table.
• Clarification of area of effect spells: it wasn't clear before what "diameter 3/5/7" meant.
• You can raise the dead by casting Cause Light Wounds in combat. (This is gone starting in Secret of the Silver Blades.)
• The Stinking Cloud AC penalty is larger than I thought
• Mirror Image is not as effective as it should be, or as in later games. (Also fixed in Secret of the Silver Blades.)
• Haste and Slow do not actually affect initiative.
• Strength: for Open Doors, easy vs. hard is in fact implemented, so I put that in the table.
• Dexterity: actual adjustments to thief skills. There are a couple wrong numbers in the game's table. (Also, for those looking forward to Curse of the Azure Bonds, Dexterity 20 is not actually supported in this regard -- equipping Gauntlets of Dexterity to get to 20 will at best not help.)
• For avoiding attacks, being third-from-the-bottom is better than being #5 in the order.
• A "small/medium" target for a weapon is only so if it both has that size in the game files and has a 1-tile icon.
• The actual THAC0 table used by the game is now there. It's a hybrid of 1st/2nd edition rules (as you might expect), and it also changes by specific Gold Box game.
• More information on binary format.
• Added Computer Gaming World references.
• Added Acknowledgements.

The Curse of the Azure Bonds longform walkthrough is now almost done. If there's anything in particular you want added, now is a good time to mention it.