Bard's Tale The Bard's Tale IV Pre-Release Thread [RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[felipepepe]

Yeah, will be an interesting test of his PR skills and maxed out charisma stats... Grimrock 2 was everything a Real-time blobber fan could hope for, yet it clearly sold less than Grimrock 1.

I talked about this some time ago; by looking at Steam achievements and how little people played the game, it seems like the casual players were tricked into buying it by the gorgeous graphics. But that didn't work the second time, since now they knew what "dungeon crawler" meant...

 

[Wizfall]

That's the problem with the success of a Bard's Tale 4 Kickstarter. Blobbers/first person RPGs are perceived as having a more limited scope for that sort of thing. The latter Wizardry games began a journey towards turning blobbers into more fully-fledged RPG experiences, but then the series died, and people forgot them. It'll be interesting to see if inXile try to travel in that direction once more.

Yeah. I'm afraid that if they ride too hard on the "fiendish puzzles and dungeon crawling" aspect people might say "Eh, I've already played Grimrock". Though on the other hand, with enough extra stuff to do that Grimrock doesn't have (a town, NPCs to talk to, etc) that might turn out to be quite popular.

Exactly that, towns with NPC to talk and a good amount of dialogs, improving the blobber formula like the last wizardries did.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yeah, will be an interesting test of his PR skills and maxed out charisma stats... Grimrock 2 was everything a Real-time blobber fan could hope for, yet it clearly sold less than Grimrock 1.

I talked about this some time ago; by looking at Steam achievements and how little people played the game, it seems like the casual players were tricked into buying it by the gorgeous graphics. But that didn't work the second time, since now they knew what "dungeon crawler" meant...

IIRC, out of 600,000 copies as of the end of 2012 they sold 400-450,000 via the bundles.

Plus, LoG is a DM-clone (no towns, no npcs, non-combat stuff is limited to solving puzzles and admiring the scenery). A proper TB or PB blobber with places to go and people to see might attract more attention.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Why can't we have a Wizardry 9 kickstarter

 

[FeelTheRads]

Yeah. I'm afraid that if they ride too hard on the "fiendish puzzles and dungeon crawling" aspect people might say "Eh, I've already played Grimrock"

I'm more curious if he's going to try to get the "old-school" fans again.

The nephew of dungeon crawlers is back.

I suspect not if he'll continue with the Hearthstone nonsense. Maybe he's more interested in the lol bard's tale fans.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

Why are you so fixated on the idea of RTwP being a guaranteed recipe for financial success? Outside of this forum, BG2 isn't even acclaimed for its combat, but for its scope, writing and romances.

My perception is that RT is generally more popular than TB. I know a lot of people who wouldn't touch a TB RPG, few who would, and I'm the only person in my circle who prefers TB.

I think the combat in BG2 is liked outside of this forum if not acclaimed. Most forums outside of the Codex don't discuss combat in crpgs to the same level as the codex.

The split was because of the deviation from the original Torment (DAT nostalgia), not because people actually prefer RTwP.

Infinitron wrote that 'after the success of Divinity: Original Sin, the latter (TB) may be a definite advantage'. IMO, the vote indicates that not to be the case for the success of a kickstarter.

It got less than Torment, which didn't specify a combat system.

I'm sure a lot of people, probably most, assumed that TToN would be RTwP.

It did get more than the turn-based WL2, but that game barely had a campaign whereas PoE put up all sorts of enticing stretch goals to keep people constantly donating. Kickstarter audiences care more about the role-playing experience in a general sense., they don't tend to think deeply about the specifics of combat systems.

You don't think they consciously or sub-consciously assume that the game will play how they imagine it will, based on previous experiences playing similar games? I was under the impression PoE was facing some outcry with combat not being BG-like enough during the backer beta. Would you consider that a telling sign?

What do you mean 'does an Obsidian'? InXile started the Kickstarter cRPG renaissance with WL2.

Obsidian used the 'BG successor' line. I think there's still an opportunity to drop BG/BG2 as a major influence into a kickstarter. That's what I meant by doing an Obsidian.

Actually, Athelas, I have to admit that tackling your points has given me more clarity. Infinitron's right:

... in reality Kickstarter audiences taken as a whole are really just a nostalgic version of the mass audience. They want a game where they can do cool stuff (but in a nostalgic way).

To relive good experiences.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I have hope that it'll be a TB blobber if only because that's a niche that Obsidian and InXile aren't currently covering. Maybe they'll think there's too much overlap if everything they do is top down.

 

[Gary Indiana]

Why can't we have a Wizardry 9 kickstarter

We did.

 

[mindx2]

Original Bard's Tale was pretty fun... when I played it in 1987 and didn't mind the grindiness. I may grab this one if it's any good -- I don't think it'll outshine Wizardry 6-8

in blobbery goodness, though.

Fixed it for you...

 

[stony3k]

Why can't we have a Wizardry 9 kickstarter

We did.

Grimoire is properly Wizardry 7.5, really. Wizardry 9 would probably be more like Wizardry 8:mrfussy:

 

[octavius]

Yeah, will be an interesting test of his PR skills and maxed out charisma stats... Grimrock 2 was everything a Real-time blobber fan could hope for, yet it clearly sold less than Grimrock 1.

I talked about this some time ago; by looking at Steam achievements and how little people played the game, it seems like the casual players were tricked into buying it by the gorgeous graphics. But that didn't work the second time, since now they knew what "dungeon crawler" meant...

I guess they thought Grimrock 1 was an interactive movie, like 90% of all games nowaday...

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

I know what I am saying now is banal, but if sales numbers were a public knowledge, our market analyses would be deeply improved.

 

[Lady_Error]

Unfortunately only Wizardry 7 and Wizardry 8 fulfill these criteria and are the only ones enjoyable today (both are on my top 10 cRPG game list).

I would add Realms of Arkania 2 to that list.

Recently only 2 TB blobbers were released (i only know PC games).
MMX was a big disappointment (limited exploration, average items distribution, awful character creation system with 0 personalization, mediocre NPC/dialog).
I still have not played Xulima despite being a backer but from what i read, it seemed much better than MMX but still far from W7 and W8 qualities.

If you get past the first 10% or so of MMX it becomes really good later on. Xulima is also on my list.

Why can't we have a Wizardry 9 kickstarter

Because D.W. Bradley has lost his mind (Dungeon Lords) and Andrew Greenberg stopped making games a long time ago. And Brenda Garneau or whats-her-name - I won't even go there. Cleve is our only hope. And Fargo, maybe.

 

[Infinitron]

I wonder what people he's going to hire to make this game. It requires a different skill set.

Dungeon design knowledge used to be widespread among RPG developers, probably due to the more widespread oldschool D&D PnP experience in those days. Even games like Ultima that had pretty bad combat had surprisingly well-designed dungeons. But today...

 

[Onholyservicebound]

What are you doing in a thread dedicated to a blobber game? Or were you at first super excited at the notion of this game getting a sequel like these prestigious individuals? Go advocate decline somewhere else scrub. You could try the internet wayback machine and get in the spirit of things by reading the hype surrounding the upcoming FPS Fallout sequel.

As far as I know it hasn't been confirmed to be a first person blobber, correct me if it has. As to why I was reading this thread, easy, I like CRPGs, I like Inxile, so Inxile kickstarting a new CRPG interests me.

Obviously Inxile updating W2 to an overhead view is evidence that games like Bard's tale and Wasteland only played the way they did due to technical limitations.

 

[Dorateen]

I hope Fargo's team can deliver. It's too early to get overly excited without knowing exact features and how they will be implemented. Is he sincere to old school sensibilities, or will he slip into snakeoil salesman mode?

In Gygax We Trust, and the developers at TSI. Fargo, have to keep an eye on.

 

[Zombra]

Why can't we have a Wizardry 9 kickstarter

I was actually going to say ...

This talk about TB, PB, RTwP made me remember ... Wizardry 8, best blobber combat ever imo ... and it had two modes. Standard phase-based, and 'continuous' phase-based. Since mechanically they were almost identical, it was easy enough to include both and allow the player to switch back and forth on the fly. That would absolutely be my ideal system, unless Fargo has an idea that is legitimately even better.

Also Wiz8 had 360° movement. Frankly, I'm over the blobber grid.

Obviously Inxile updating W2 to an overhead view is evidence that games like Bard's tale and Wasteland only played the way they did due to technical limitations.

You had me going for a second there.

 

[felipepepe]

I wonder what people he's going to hire to make this game. It requires a different skill set.

Dungeon design knowledge used to be widespread among RPG developers, probably due to the more widespread oldschool D&D PnP experience in those days. Even games like Ultima that had pretty bad combat had surprisingly well-designed dungeons. But today...

Yes, please God don't let the "wiggly corridor team" in charge of making a fucking dungeon.

 

[Lady_Error]

Also Wiz8 had 360° movement. Frankly, I'm over the blobber grid.

The blobber grid is a good abstraction and makes exploration and navigation more straight-forward. Alternatively, something like in Realms of Arkania 2 can be done where people could choose either step movement or free movement. I think that is the best of both worlds.

 

[Athelas]

I wonder what people he's going to hire to make this game. It requires a different skill set.

Dungeon design knowledge used to be widespread among RPG developers, probably due to the more widespread oldschool D&D PnP experience in those days. Even games like Ultima that had pretty bad combat had surprisingly well-designed dungeons. But today...

Yes, please God don't let the "wiggly corridor team" in charge of making a fucking dungeon.

Uhm, this might come as a shock, but buildings usually have corridors in them.

Maybe they could introduce a subplot that explains the dungeons have terrible level design because the villain had to rely on shitty architects that can't land legit work.

 

[Zombra]

Also Wiz8 had 360° movement. Frankly, I'm over the blobber grid.

The blobber grid is a good abstraction and makes exploration and navigation more straight-forward.

Eh. Wiz8's navigation wasn't difficult or devious, was it?

Alternatively, something like in Realms of Arkania 2 can be done where people could choose either step movement or free movement. I think that is the best of both worlds.

Never played RoA2 (for long anyway), but that sounds fine with me.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Because D.W. Bradley has lost his mind (Dungeon Lords) and Andrew Greenberg stopped making games a long time ago. And Brenda Garneau or whats-her-name - I won't even go there. Cleve is our only hope. And Fargo, maybe.

I wonder what people he's going to hire to make this game. It requires a different skill set.

Dungeon design knowledge used to be widespread among RPG developers, probably due to the more widespread oldschool D&D PnP experience in those days. Even games like Ultima that had pretty bad combat had surprisingly well-designed dungeons. But today...

Yeah but good dungeon crawler design shouldn't be that hard that only a handful of developers are capable of doing it (trust me, I know these things since I've never worked in game development). Nocturne (and Labyrinth of 2hu2 and Elimnage from what I've read on the codex) was great and I'm pretty sure it was developed by people who've never played D&D. Same thing for some of the bosses and dungeons in Etrian Odyssey. Though those Japanese developers were inspired by Wizardry and other games which were made by old Western developers who were experienced in D&D.

With some imagination and moden hardware you could do a lot than just Etrian Odyssey boss gimmicks. You'd think that with grid based movement and turn based combat things would be easy implement and you could easily make very complex levels and bosses.

Also Wiz8 had 360° movement. Frankly, I'm over the blobber grid.

I'd love to see another game like Wizardry 8, but no grid movement=no mapping (or it becomes very cumbersome when you can't measure distance (Ultima 7), or something like Ultima Underworld where you have the dungeon layout and just add notes to it). A game with out mapping could be perfectly enjoyable though as long as is as good/better than Wizardry 8, with a lot of party customization options, great combat etc.

 

[Zombra]

I'd love to see another game like Wizardry 8, but no grid movement=no mapping

Yeah. Speaking for myself, I don't even have graph paper in my house. Haven't for 20 years. Don't want it.

A game with out mapping could be perfectly enjoyable though as long as is as good/better than Wizardry 8, with a lot of party customization options, great combat etc.

Right on.

 

[a Goat]

Maybe they could introduce a subplot that explains the dungeons have terrible level design because the villain had to rely on shitty architects that can't land legit work.

This is funny if you think about it.
"Dungeons" with structure typical for dungeon crawlers would be natural things like caves, things build ad-hoc(catacombs) or without clear lead(pre-industrial era mines). Fortress or its dungeon theoretically shouldn't be a labyrinth of tunnels with traps and shit, because it would make it hard for inhabitants to cope.

I mean imagine evil, evil guy. He comes to you on a horse fucks you up and tells you - "I am the evilist evil to ever be evil, now I'll leave you and come back to my evil fortress called Evil Fortress of Evil to continue my evil plan of decline destruction!". You're just a whimp, but whatever - you're finding a party of other whimps and go to the Evil Fortress of Evil.

What's more plausible?
Well designed redoubt which allows Evil Guy's servants to quickly reinforce key positions and fuck up any invaders?

Or piece of spaghetti dungeon that will make reinforcing front lines impossible, and traps that will cause your henchmen to fear leaving their quarters?

The Evil Guy I've pictured will surely prefer spaghetti dungeon but real evil guy wouldn't. Which isn't wrong by itself - dungeon crawling gives you many opportunities that will make the game more interesting, but it's plain stupid if you apply real life logic(same case with stats, health points, experience system, difficulty curve and many many others).

 

[V_K]

Yeah but good dungeon crawler design shouldn't be that hard

Tell that to the Black Mountain Clan.