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The Dragon Age: Inquisition Thread

Azarkon

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The problem is they weren't responsible for a great deal of that. The D&D 2.5? ruleset was. D&D 3rd ed also wasn't that bad, which is why NWN, NWN 2, and the games of its generation weren't complete shit.
Uhm, you might want to replay the NWN games to refresh those memories.

From the time Bioware abandoned D&D, they've sucked at itemization and encounter design. Same goes for Obsidian except Obsidian made a SPECIAL game in-between D&D and their own ruleset games.
I don't see how this helps your argument since SPECIAL wasn't a tabletop ruleset and it wasn't a very good system either.

The moment these CRPG designers get off the well-beaten path of tabletop rulesets, they flounder and are driven by corporate management into hybridizing action games. ME, Alpha Protocol, DA, they're all action-RPG hybrids and they all have the same style of AAA action gameplay backed by herp-derped systems. All those years of devs talking about how CRPGs are different from tabletops and needed their own rulesets, and this shit is what they come up with... It's the biggest joke of them all.
This comparison doesn't make sense. ME and Alpha Protocol are action games, what you do largely isn't affected by stats (and where it does, it's usually for the worse). The only proper comparison would be DA:O and the Infinity Engine games, which are both stat-based RPG's where you control a party.

NWN as a game wasn't complete shit. Its OC was, but the game was advertised as a 'create your own adventure/DM experience' game and it worked fine for that. I recall playing a lot of custom campaigns and MP in NWN and enjoying them.

SPECIAL isn't a tabletop ruleset but it was developed in the era when the popular wisdom was to license/copy a tabletop ruleset. The original plan for Fallout was to use GURPS. That plan fell through so they developed SPECIAL. Look into SPECIAL and you see the inspiration from GURPS.

And yes, I'm aware that AP and ME were advertised as action-RPG hybrids. So is DAI even though it wasn't advertised as such. Just because you control a party and 'have stats' does not change that fact. Play a melee in DAI and you're physically aiming your attacks the same way you aimed guns in ME.
 
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Athelas

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NWN as a game wasn't complete shit. Its OC was, but the game was advertised as a 'create your own adventure/DM experience' game and it worked fine for that. I recall playing a lot of custom campaigns and MP in NWN and enjoying them.
This is not unlike people saying Skyrim is a great game when you add a shitton of mods to it.

SPECIAL isn't a tabletop ruleset but it was developed in the era when the popular wisdom was to license/copy a tabletop ruleset. The original plan for Fallout was to use GURPS. That plan fell through so they developed SPECIAL. Look into SPECIAL and you see the inspiration from GURPS.
Care to point out these similarities? SPECIAL, and Fallout's combat resolution system in general, just isn't very good. Which is understandable since it was apparently cobbled together in a few weeks after the GURPS license fell through.

And yes, I'm aware that AP and ME were advertised as action-RPG hybrids. So is DAI even though it wasn't advertised as such. Just because you control a party and 'have stats' does not change that fact. Play a melee in DAI and you're physically aiming your attacks the same way you aimed guns in ME.
Sure, but you mentioned 'DA' rather than 'DAI'. The former includes DA:O and DA2.
 

Volourn

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"The problem is they weren't responsible for a great deal of that. The D&D 2.5? ruleset was. D&D 3rd ed also wasn't that bad, which is why NWN, NWN 2, and the games of its generation weren't complete shit."

Then expalin why most DnD games end up being subnpar or sucking? BIO's DnD games were successful because of BIO not DnD.


"From the time Bioware abandoned D&D, they've sucked at itemization and encounter design."

No.


P.S. NWN is awesome. Anyone who argues otherwise is full of fukkin' shit.
 

Nryn

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
Thoughts on final battle:
:lol:
This never gets old:

Uf3ZoG.gif
 

Azarkon

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NWN as a game wasn't complete shit. Its OC was, but the game was advertised as a 'create your own adventure/DM experience' game and it worked fine for that. I recall playing a lot of custom campaigns and MP in NWN and enjoying them.
This is not unlike people saying Skyrim is a great game when you add a shitton of mods to it.

SPECIAL isn't a tabletop ruleset but it was developed in the era when the popular wisdom was to license/copy a tabletop ruleset. The original plan for Fallout was to use GURPS. That plan fell through so they developed SPECIAL. Look into SPECIAL and you see the inspiration from GURPS.
Care to point out these similarities? SPECIAL, and Fallout's combat resolution system in general, just isn't very good. Which is understandable since it was apparently cobbled together in a few weeks after the GURPS license fell through.

Eh, Skyrim isn't a bad game to begin with. I'm not on the Codex hate train on Skyrim even insofar as such a hate train exists. But Skyrim was not advertised as a toolset for building your own D&D adventures. NWN was. I'm not blaming Bio for the NWN OC because they admitted that the entire NWN OC was built by a few guys on the side while the main development was on the toolset.

As far as GURPS-SPECIAL goes, I am pretty sure they designed SPECIAL to fit with the game rather than the other way around. Fallout had been developed FOR GURPS, and then converted to SPECIAL in a handful of weeks. The encounter design and itemization had to have been done, therefore, with GURPS in mind.

Sure, but you mentioned 'DA' rather than 'DAI'. The former includes DA:O and DA2.

Transition games. Both had simplified rulesets mid-way between tabletop and full twitch-action. Same with ME1 when put beside ME2. The generic encounter design, itemization, and dumbing down of combat began with DAO and DAI is simply the culmination of the #decline. The complexity of Bioware games while they had the D&D license and the complexity of Bioware games afterward is simply huge; whether you attribute that to a genre change - ala 'now they're making action games' - versus loss of the D&D license, I don't actually care. The bottom line is that they abandoned the ruleset and the result has been a steady decline in gameplay quality because now they're no longer bound to faithfully translating a flawed but proven system, and are free instead to make their own shitty systems.
 

Athelas

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I don't see how you can draw that conclusion when Kotor used a D&D ruleset and had combat that was far inferior to DA:O. Things aren't quite so simple.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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P.S. NWN is awesome. Anyone who argues otherwise is full of fukkin' shit.

Care to comment on my Let's Plays? (see sig).

The OC was sub-par, but I think Hordes is superior to Dragon Age: Origins.
 

Jick Magger

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DA2 sold very well on its opening weekend, but sales dropped quite sharply in the following weeks due to negative public reception, causing the game to fall quite below Bioware's initial sales projections. Sales and public reception declined thoroughly enough for them to cancel their final expansion pack to the game.
 
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As long as EA keeps their Shareholder happy, and making money that is all BioWare/EA need to do. That is their only job.

Their market strategy is betting big and expecting a huge return. Return on investment is what all these media companies rely on, not just making some kind of profit. Trust me, if this game sells 3-4 million it's a massive disappointment.

EA closing Bioware :lol::lol::lol:

ME3 sold 1.5 mil in march 2012. DAI sold around 1.1 mln in the first week excluding digital sales:salute:

and yet they make ME4.

DA2 has the worst reviews in years yet EA gives Bioware +3 years development time and fuckton money for DAI

you faggots must stop projecting and realize that Bioware dont need +15mln sales like fucking GTA,CoD or Skyrim.
 

Azarkon

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I don't see how you can draw that conclusion when Kotor used a D&D ruleset and had combat that was far inferior to DA:O. Things aren't quite so simple.

Sure, and I attribute that to the SW D&D ruleset being bad. Not all tabletop rulesets are quality, in case I was giving off that impression. But the D&D fantasy ruleset is >>> whatever Bioware and Obsidian came up with in their latter days for their RPGs. I also don't understand the rose-tinted glasses on DAO. Back when I played it, DAO combat felt as shitty as KOTOR where every battle was against a group of archer/mage/warriors where the strategy for defeating them was always the same: aoe the back line, freeze the front line, keep up the heals, win. It's your standard MMORPG combat with a few ridiculously OP control spells.

D&D fantasy combat, by contrast, varied from encounter to encounter. I credit that to D&D having a much larger beastiary and system of effects interactions than DAO did. Beholders, giants, dragons, illithids, groups of high-level NPCs, etc. were all challenging, but in completely different ways. And yes, I understand that's because D&D has had decades of content development while DAO was made in <5 years - and had Bioware continued to add complexity into their ruleset instead of taking complexity away from it, who knows?
 

Deleted member 7219

Guest
Early Review (after 30ish hours):



Not as good as either earlier DA. The game play is subpar, there's a huge lacking of real C&C (with only the mage vs templar one seemingly to be the only meanngful one, combat for the most part boring with even worse hit point bloat than before,the character creation/level up system (outside of multiple races|) is plain crap and fukkin' dumbed down shit.

\

Exploring can be fun but the unlimited number of fetch quests is pure retartetcy. The graphics are good and the music is as well. The characetrs for the most part are done reasonably well. The story including the main villain is lacklustre. So far he is one of BIO's worst.


The war table is a good idea and mostly works but it is majorly hurt by the **** quest 'system'.



Playable game but nowhere near a BIO classic so far. This is at KOTOR and NWN OC levels of average.

KOTOR actually had sidequests that were pretty damn good.

I liked Corypheus from a lore perspective - he's a myth that turned out to be real. But they never went anywhere with him.
 

Bleed the Man

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I liked Corypheus from a lore perspective - he's a myth that turned out to be real. But they never went anywhere with him.
But that was already told in the Legacy DLC, I don't know why re-use the same concept when you're not going to explore it further
 

mastroego

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In their heart of hearts I don't think even Bethesda believes they can replicate Skyrim sales.
But they have a shot at it, since Skyrim, like it or not, broke a few of the medium's barriers and many more people know about it than it would have been the case "normally".
I say if they invest wisely in the sequel people will be very curious to see how big and immersive it can be. In other words, the release of Skyrim's sequel could be an event.
 

Athelas

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DAO combat felt as shitty as KOTOR
I don't think you will find many people who will agree with you. DA:O is a definite step down from the IE experience, but the experience between Kotor and DA:O is night and day. Kotor doesn't even have something as basic as marquee selection.

It's your standard MMORPG combat with a few ridiculously OP control spells.
I don't play MMORPG's, but I don't think they typically allow for full party control. I also don't think you can pause a persistent online server.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
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"DA2 sold very well on its opening weekend, but sales dropped quite sharply in the following weeks due to negative public reception, causing the game to fall quite below Bioware's initial sales projections. Sales and public reception declined thoroughly enough for them to cancel their final expansion pack to the game."

Considering time cost for DA2 it made pretty good coin. It also outsold most other BIO games including the precious BGs and even NWN which was BIO's most successful game prior to DA1. As for expansion cancellation, that was dumb. An expansion is cheaper and they may have bena ble to garner some good will if they did well.. Afterall, NWN OC got (unfairly) bashed but they made 2 expansions for it which were more well received (though SOU is overrated). The same easily could have happened with a DA2 expansion.


"I liked Corypheus from a lore perspective - he's a myth that turned out to be real. But they never went anywhere with him."

I never played that expansion yet thoguh I am close to it on my current playthrough. However, what little I've seen of him in DA3 is hugely dissapointing. The archdemon in DA1 had more personality. Hell, his dragon pet had more eprsonality shown in the one scene where it comes face to face with the Inquisitor. L0L


"KOTOR actually had sidequests that were pretty damn good."

That's true, but the game play is basically NWN/DnD dumbed down with pretty light sabres. That's where it loses marks for me. Plus, the joinable npcs have some really good ones but also some real bad ones. That's what brings its mark down. NWN OC also has some really nice side quests.


"Sure, and I attribute that to the SW D&D ruleset being bad. Not all tabletop rulesets are quality, in case I was giving off that impression. But the D&D fantasy ruleset is >>> whatever Bioware and Obsidian came up with in their latter days for their RPGs. I also don't understand the rose-tinted glasses on DAO. Back when I played it, DAO combat felt as shitty as KOTOR where every battle was against a group of archer/mage/warriors where the strategy for defeating them was always the same: aoe the back line, freeze the front line, keep up the heals, win. It's your standard MMORPG combat with a few ridiculously OP control spells.

D&D fantasy combat, by contrast, varied from encounter to encounter. I credit that to D&D having a much larger beastiary and system of effects interactions than DAO did. Beholders, giants, dragons, illithids, groups of high-level NPCs, etc. were all challenging, but in completely different ways. And yes, I understand that's because D&D has had decades of content development while DAO was made in <5 years - and had Bioware continued to add complexity into their ruleset instead of taking complexity away from it, who knows?"

Yiou still haven't expalined why most DnD games are crap and nowhere near the level of BGs/NWN? None of them have been remotely close to their success. Not even the GB games. Even TOEE which was the 'best' at following DnD rules was a flop (combat rules were good combat was bad). Why is that? Why was POR2 a complete and utter joke. IWD series fcoused on combat which a lot of people think DnD is just dungeojn crawl yet it never came close to touching BG's success or popularity. It's obviously. BG/NWN's success is because of BIO not DnD.


"you faggots must stop projecting and realize that Bioware dont need +15mln sales like fucking GTA,CoD or Skyrim."

BINGO. The asanine often used quotes of '20mil sales' or 'Skyrim numbers' to deride BIO's 'lack of success' is stupid. That is more of a farreachingd ream not a legit goal. People actually think that EA expects BIO games to sell 20mil copies when their bests elling game pre purchase (?) sold no more than 5mil? FUCK OFF. 20mil may be the dream goal but it's certainly not the primary legit business goal. Certainly, when they go over their projects and plan their budgets their not basing it on a 'required' 20 million sales or bust strategy? FUCK OFF.


"Care to comment on my Let's Plays? (see sig)."

I've read it. It was entertaining.


"The OC was sub-par, but I think Hordes is superior to Dragon Age: Origins."

I wouldn't go that far. Lots to love about Hordes, but I'd still give the edge to DA1. Maybe.
 

Jick Magger

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Yeah, I'm really confused by this 'tactical board' nonsense, especially since DA:O and even DA2 managed to pull off a much less clunky alternative that basically just amounted to "Zoom the camera out and pause the game". It just strikes me as Bioware trying to fix a problem that never existed.

They didn't.

Every developer is doing their job with a dedicated Xbox controller at their desk. We saw that in the promo. Nobody designs for PC.
I'm starting to think it was an attempt to lend legitimacy to the game for the 'hardcore' audiences. In a "Look! Combat is still deep, we have a tactical menu and everything!" kind of way. Except it's never really needed since 90% of fights I've gotten in to thus far don't really require an awful lot of tactical thinking beyond brute force and letting your party members do their default thing.
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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I guess BioWare's D&D games are so successful cuz they're RTwP.
 

Volourn

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Then explain why IWD series or PST didn't do as well. They are both RTwP.
 

DalekFlay

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EA closing Bioware :lol::lol::lol:

ME3 sold 1.5 mil in march 2012. DAI sold around 1.1 mln in the first week excluding digital sales:salute:

and yet they make ME4.

DA2 has the worst reviews in years yet EA gives Bioware +3 years development time and fuckton money for DAI

you faggots must stop projecting and realize that Bioware dont need +15mln sales like fucking GTA,CoD or Skyrim.

Who the fuck said anything about them closing Bioware? I said 4 million sales is a disappointment for Inquisition, and I stand by that completely. EA executives themselves make statements about this kind of shit, about the budgets, marketing and so forth required for these massive games necessitating a large return on investment to make it worth the risk. It's the same as in Hollywood, the big Summer blockbusters need to make hundreds of millions in profit to be a true success, because they bankroll everything else (including the failures). If you don't think the goal for Battlefield is Call of Duty numbers and the goal for Dragon Age is Elder Scrolls numbers you're dreaming.
 
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EA closing Bioware :lol::lol::lol:

ME3 sold 1.5 mil in march 2012. DAI sold around 1.1 mln in the first week excluding digital sales:salute:

and yet they make ME4.

DA2 has the worst reviews in years yet EA gives Bioware +3 years development time and fuckton money for DAI

you faggots must stop projecting and realize that Bioware dont need +15mln sales like fucking GTA,CoD or Skyrim.

Who the fuck said anything about them closing Bioware? I said 4 million sales is a disappointment for Inquisition, and I stand by that completely. EA executives themselves make statements about this kind of shit, about the budgets, marketing and so forth required for these massive games necessitating a large return on investment to make it worth the risk. It's the same as in Hollywood, the big Summer blockbusters need to make hundreds of millions in profit to be a true success, because they bankroll everything else (including the failures). If you don't think the goal for Battlefield is Call of Duty numbers and the goal for Dragon Age is Elder Scrolls numbers you're dreaming.
:retarded:
enlighten me with one Biowares game(excluding DAO) that sold more than 4 mln:lol:

goal for Dragon Age is Elder Scrolls numbers
:retarded:
just because you keep repeating it doesnt make it true.

EA are fucking greedy jews but they are not complete idiots. You really believe that they looked at Bio`s resume : ~1mln sales, 2 mln, 1.5 mln, 3 mln, 1.5 mln, 3 mln, 5 mln, 3 mln, 2 mln, 4 mln and told them "your next game better have that 17+mln sales or we will be very disappointed"
:hahano:

Dead Space 3 sold like shit for AAA title and EA did not hesitated to "restructure" them:lol: Bio had that shitty streak of TORtanic, DA2 and ME3 ending and yet in 2014 they have 3 games in development:M
 
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One thing about Bioware sales numbers is that its as much about keeping the competition down as actually making a profit. EA policy is to have as near to a monopoly on gaming as economic reality enables them to have. Bioware levels of profit are small change to EA but would provide financing for smaller rivals to challenge them in more lucrative endeavors.
 

Athelas

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goal for Dragon Age is Elder Scrolls numbers :retarded:
I don't know if you've kept up, but making a Skyrim killer is sorta the hottest pursuit in gaming right now. Even Japanese RPG's are now previewing their games by saying 'see that mountain? you can climb it' .
 

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