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The Dragon Age: Inquisition Thread

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Is Mass Effect 2 the best game Bioware's ever done? Easy mode for Codex: Don't worry about Baldur's Gate era stuff, just compared to KotOR forward era.

Then it's obviously Dragon Age: Origins.

but ME2 feels like the Bioware game where they don't hold the player in utter contempt. Thanks steam sale

I dunno...if they held the player in any real esteem they might have followed best practices (of the popamole sub-genre) when designing the core mechanics of gameplay. Gonna drop some wordswordswords fropm rejectedpoasts.txt about ME2 combat (context was ME1 vs ME2, but it should still be mostly relevant).

I'd disagree. The Mass Effect series showed that Bioware have a lot of trouble outside of iterating on their RTwP fantasy combat, with Mass Effect 2 as the most prominent example of their failures.

While Mass Effect 1 had numerous mechanical wrinkles, there are a few legitimate factors to consider when judging Bioware's performance. First off, it was their first major foray into shooting games. Furthermore, the sub-genre of "third-person-cover-shooters" (hereafter: "popamole") had yet to really coalesce; Gears of War had only been out for about a month and Uncharted was a month away. Bioware was on the cutting edge, at least for this installation. Finally, Mass Effect 1 had a much deeper focus on typical role-playing mechanics (dialogue skills, distancing it more from it's pure popamole brethren.

Mass Effect 2 didn't have these excuses and was quite deficient compared to the baseline popamole.

It was a shooter with a limited set of weapons, most of which mapped to the cliche pistol/shotgun/AR/sniper model, in which the player was further restricted to a smaller subset of weapons based upon class choice. In many classes, the powers simply weren't interesting enough to make up for this. Bioware's idiotic design with regards to universal cooldowns and armor/shields negating many powers further "genericized" the combat. Here's some cool abilities that differentiate this from the typical popamole...oh hey, you can't really use them most of the time. Wanna Lift that Krogan Battlemaster and ring-out him instead of going through ludicrous amounts of HP bloat? Nope, gotta peel off shields and/or armor first. Psi-Ops had this type of gameplay down in '05...what's Bioware's excuse?

Shepard also played extremely stiff compared to somebody like Marcus Fenix or Nathan Drake. It took until ME3 for there to be a dodge roll, something Gears of War did in the first installment. Shepard's sprinting was stilted (transitioning from a run to a vault over cover could be problematic), melee wasn't as smooth nor interesting as other popamole offerings (until ME3 with SHEHPAHRD PAAAWWWNCH, which was more a lark than anything useful), and even snapping to cover didn't always work. It's hard to say that Mass Effect 2 did a good job on the basics, when compared to it's peer group.

Level design was poor even compared to the typical popamole as it was burdened by all of the linearity and convenient chest-high walls yet lacked the exciting set-pieces of a Gears of War or Uncharted...to say nothing of something like Vanquish (which would come out later in 2010). Even basic principles of shooter level design, like finding secrets, hidden ammo/weapon caches, multiple routes, and whatnot are absent from most every level.

Enemy design was mostly pedestrian, with the exception of the Harbinger's ability to "promote" a collector. More troubling than the blandness was the enemies tendency to break the fundamental law of popamole; that any foe should be as dependent on cover as the player is when facing them. Enemies in the entire series often violated this rule, having enough armor/shields/health such that, if the AI was playing "smart", could easily defeat the player in many encounters by employing bum-rush tactics. Compare this to Gears of War, where charges like that would be suicidal to the enemy forces; they'd be torn apart by all the free shots they'd be giving the player (and squadmates). Or Vanquish, in which the player character's mobility allows them to dodge/slide away from any danger. Funnily enough, the other most prominent example of this spoiled popamole was Alpha Protocol, in which bosses (especially Captain Murphy and Raidou Kuzunoha the XIX) had a strange habit of running full bore at the player character, seemingly oblivious to streams of gunfire, in order to beat them to death.

Boss battles don't typically translate well to shooters, especially those of the popamole persuasion, but ME2's were downright pathetic, tending towards enormous hitboxes whose attacks would be easily flaunted by ducking behind a chest-high wall (see: gunships, Thresher Maw, Human Reaper).

I mean, in the end, ME2 was okay enough for a playthrough, carried mostly by the campy dialogue, space opera setting, and outstanding soundtrack (as well as hilariously broken Vanguard/Infiltrator gameplay), but it's hard to really see it as "good" or better than DA:O, much less the BG games.
 

DalekFlay

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As a game, I would have to say Mass Effect 2 is the best game we will ever see from BioWare/EA. It is the single best thing they did, even with all its flaws, and they won't ever achieve that again.

It is not a cRPG though.

I like Origins more, but of their console multiplatform stuff ME2 is definitely their best effort at cinematic action RPGing and pleasing a wide audience without making something horribly bland and boring.
 

Gozma

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The thing about the AI tactics being self-defeating (i.e. on insanity they "should" always just rush and overwhelm you) is totally true

I thought the defense layer-stripping thing meshed really well with the Bioware focus on companions because they end up being specialized to counter particular classes of enemy - which you generally know you're going to be fighting in a given mission - which gives you a mechanical reason to use everyone instead of sticking with your one loadout.

Also personal disclosure - the only other popamole I've played was Deus Ex HR, and I did miss the cover-to-cover roll thing in ME2, I dunno if that is industry standard.

DA:O is so damn irritating and flooded with filler I dunno how to even start criticizing it (plus I played it a few months ago and forgot most of it - I wrote a fair amount of words at the time but it's all gone).
 

Lhynn

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Is Mass Effect 2 the best game Bioware's ever done? Easy mode for Codex: Don't worry about Baldur's Gate era stuff, just compared to KotOR forward era.

ME1 felt like standard Bioware filler-stuffed garbage (also gotta love the constant console loading screen disguising that would take a second on current PCs if they didn't go through their 20-second elevator ride delay) but ME2 feels like the Bioware game where they don't hold the player in utter contempt. Thanks steam sale

Edit - if anyone here has got a lot of Bioware knowledge, were there any big high level staff changes at Bio before/after ME2 that explain it being a good game, because AFAICT they've gone back to the old ways.
As an RPG the first ME is better, as a shooter the second ME is better. As a game, really up to what you want to play.
 

set

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Is Mass Effect 2 the best game Bioware's ever done? Easy mode for Codex: Don't worry about Baldur's Gate era stuff, just compared to KotOR forward era.

ME1 felt like standard Bioware filler-stuffed garbage (also gotta love the constant console loading screen disguising that would take a second on current PCs if they didn't go through their 20-second elevator ride delay) but ME2 feels like the Bioware game where they don't hold the player in utter contempt. Thanks steam sale

Edit - if anyone here has got a lot of Bioware knowledge, were there any big high level staff changes at Bio before/after ME2 that explain it being a good game, because AFAICT they've gone back to the old ways.
As an RPG the first ME is better, as a shooter the second ME is better. As a game, really up to what you want to play.

There arguments are always groundless. ME2 is a hallway shooter very close in design to COD. ME1 is a large-hallway shooter with a few more interesting mechanics (I think the psychopowers are better implemented in ME1 and heat-based weapons are way more interesting than tired-old clip-based ones). If ME2 plays better it's only because they took out less tedium, not because actually improved any mechanics.
 

Lhynn

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There arguments are always groundless. ME2 is a hallway shooter very close in design to COD. ME1 is a large-hallway shooter with a few more interesting mechanics (I think the psychopowers are better implemented in ME1 and heat-based weapons are way more interesting than tired-old clip-based ones). If ME2 plays better it's only because they took out less tedium, not because actually improved any mechanics.
What? they improved the shooting mechanics and stripped the RPG systems, thats all there is to it. Plus the plot and world building in the first is better.
 

set

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There arguments are always groundless. ME2 is a hallway shooter very close in design to COD. ME1 is a large-hallway shooter with a few more interesting mechanics (I think the psychopowers are better implemented in ME1 and heat-based weapons are way more interesting than tired-old clip-based ones). If ME2 plays better it's only because they took out less tedium, not because actually improved any mechanics.
What? they improved the shooting mechanics and stripped the RPG systems, thats all there is to it. Plus the plot and world building in the first is better.

1. World Building is better
A) Jacob's loyalty missions makes absolutely no sense
B) Most of the decisions you made in ME1 are invalidated or have some random effect that makes no sense [like a stupid letter]
C) Human repear is andross???
D) Suicide mission makes no sense
E) Cerberus makes no sense at all god why are you working for this guy again it makes no sense i tmakes no sense it makes no sense
F) you're trolling me
G) can you even give a concrete example about what part of the world building they do right?
H) literally they took reapers, an interesting Lovecraftian singular mysterious enemy and made them into DAH REAPAZ
2. Plot
A) I'm not even going here, the suicide mission was literally just a merry-go-round - it has no context in the scope of the ME series, ME1 and ME3 basically can happen without ME2 ever happening and make 100% sense because in-fact ME2 has no plot of any consequence to anybody, it's literally an intermission
B) what the fuck is up with Liara it makes no sense
C) what the fuck is with BioWare and making 90% of the story in some book or comic or DLC I will never read or play thank you for ruining the pacing and sensibility of everything important
3. Stripping RPG systems is good? ME1 was already stripped down
4. They did not improve the shooting mechanics, all they did was change the reload system, add a sprint and improve the base movement speed and make all of the levels straight fucking lines

Arguably, ME2 was just ME1 with less shit in it. You and the people who cite it as an improvement over anything are what's wrong with gaming today.
 

Turjan

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Is Mass Effect 2 the best game Bioware's ever done? Easy mode for Codex: Don't worry about Baldur's Gate era stuff, just compared to KotOR forward era.
ME2 was definitely the smoothest. I liked ME1's cover system more, but ME1 was lacking class balance, and not just a tiny bit - that's bascially a given - but pretty awfully so. ME2 was an interesting game, and it didn't really fail in any particular way. Lack of setting continuity and the planet survey mechanics are its low points, but the former doesn't really count if you look at the game on its own, and the latter was at least easily done with. ME1 was much more uneven, though I still like it about as much.

I cannot really be fair towards DA, as I dislike the setting.
 

Lhynn

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set stop being fucking autistic, the game part of the fucking game is better in ME2, that is why its regarded as a better game.

As retarded as ME2 was, it was a good shooter. I find ME1 of a much better quality and a true rpg tho, enjoyable to play, especially for the first time.

Turjan bringing up class balance on a single player game where you play one character is the single most pointless thing you can do in any criticism.
 

Bleed the Man

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Although I find ME2 the best in the series, it wasn't that much of a good shooter to be honest.

It's fun to look how much they improved gameplay wise in ME3 (it actually plays like a good, and not below average like ME2, popamole TPS) only to really fuck it up in all the others aspects of the game.
 

set

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ME3 is horrible. The enemies literally barrel in from helicopters or invisible entryways in every goddammned level ad nauseum. How can you say that's good?
 

set

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If you think ME2 and ME3 have "good gameplay" or are "good shooters" please make sure you're not eating too much tuna. Poisonous levels of mercury and lead can bioaccumulate in your body and cause you any range of symptoms from mental retardation to insanity.
 

Bleed the Man

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
ME3 is horrible. The enemies literally barrel in from helicopters or invisible entryways in every goddammned level ad nauseum. How can you say that's good?
What you're saying is pretty damn common in modern day shooters, and not that modern, and not much of an issue for me really.
 

set

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ME3 is horrible. The enemies literally barrel in from helicopters or invisible entryways in every goddammned level ad nauseum. How can you say that's good?
What you're saying is pretty damn common in modern day shooters, and not that modern, and not much of an issue for me really.

I don't follow. We deride bad RPGs for going the way of WoW. We don't accept them because we know we can do better. What lets us give ME2 and ME3 free passes for gun mechanics? We have seen better gun mechanics in games of old.

The heat mechanic in ME1 was a good idea because -- well in most circumstances it forced you to switch weapons more frequently. COD games don't usually make you do that or make you think about your gun usually (you can only hold two weapons anyway lol), taking it out to provide for CODisms is not a step in the right direction or something we should allow to pass by unchecked.
 

DalekFlay

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I do think ME1 had better story and atmosphere a lot of the time. And more stat stuff. Everything else is better in 2 though, probably.
 

set

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If ME2's mechanics had gone in the direction of Deus Ex's, you could say it was better and not sound like a retard. By saying ME1->Call of Duty is "better" -- it's literally retardation (or at best, you're a tasteless person). ME1's mechanics are not necessarily good but trying anything new like they did is better than just copying call of duty with space mages.
 

Bleed the Man

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
ME3 is horrible. The enemies literally barrel in from helicopters or invisible entryways in every goddammned level ad nauseum. How can you say that's good?
What you're saying is pretty damn common in modern day shooters, and not that modern, and not much of an issue for me really.

I don't follow. We deride bad RPGs for going the way of WoW. We don't accept them because we know we can do better. What lets us give ME2 and ME3 free passes for gun mechanics? We have seen better gun mechanics in games of old.

The heat mechanic in ME1 was a good idea because -- well in most circumstances it forced you to switch weapons more frequently. COD games don't usually make you do that or make you think about your gun usually (you can only hold two weapons anyway lol), taking it out to provide for CODisms is not a step in the right direction or something we should allow to pass by unchecked.
The heat mechanic was fucking broken. After the first main story planet you probably never overheat your weapon, at least not the assault rifles. And by the end it's actually impossible to overheat it unless an enemy ability makes it so.
 

Ninjerk

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At this point I think I watch these threads to see mindbogglingly in-depth discussions of mediocre games. It's like the people of Walmart of games criticism in here.
 

Turjan

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Turjan bringing up class balance on a single player game where you play one character is the single most pointless thing you can do in any criticism.
While I can see what you want to express, it ranged from "near useless" to "I win", which points to lack of testing. If a class fails to match its purpose, this is a fault, no matter what you think about it. They did a much better job in ME2.
 

Lhynn

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Turjan bringing up class balance on a single player game where you play one character is the single most pointless thing you can do in any criticism.
While I can see what you want to express, it ranged from "near useless" to "I win", which points to lack of testing. If a class fails to match its purpose, this is a fault, no matter what you think about it. They did a much better job in ME2.
Ill take that as long as it provides varied ways of playing the game, and that it did.
 

set

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ME3 is horrible. The enemies literally barrel in from helicopters or invisible entryways in every goddammned level ad nauseum. How can you say that's good?
What you're saying is pretty damn common in modern day shooters, and not that modern, and not much of an issue for me really.

I don't follow. We deride bad RPGs for going the way of WoW. We don't accept them because we know we can do better. What lets us give ME2 and ME3 free passes for gun mechanics? We have seen better gun mechanics in games of old.

The heat mechanic in ME1 was a good idea because -- well in most circumstances it forced you to switch weapons more frequently. COD games don't usually make you do that or make you think about your gun usually (you can only hold two weapons anyway lol), taking it out to provide for CODisms is not a step in the right direction or something we should allow to pass by unchecked.
The heat mechanic was fucking broken. After the first main story planet you probably never overheat your weapon, at least not the assault rifles. And by the end it's actually impossible to overheat it unless an enemy ability makes it so.

Sniper rifles could overheat and frequently did so for me. Due to a bug at launch weapons could get locked into a state where they wouldn't cooldown, which I thought was interesting and made the game more challenging when I played it.
 

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