The Eye of the Beholder Thread

[pjs]

Just for the kicks and comparison, I just replayed EOB2 with non-imported characters, 2 fighters, 1 cleric and 1 mage. Starting with 69K xp, they ended up with 310K xp before Dran Battle, ie. mostly level 9.

Dran battle was significantly more difficult because the L9 fighters kept missing much more than L13 (difference is +4 THAC0); the battle took 3-5x longer and I also had to retry a few times as I kept making mistakes now and then. Elsewhere there wasn't too big of a difference (except I used spells such as lightning bolts more); however, mantis attacks were somewhat annoying and the frost giant prison was somewhat difficult until I cast invisibility on the party (after which the giants started missing much more).

A few notes. Helmets, whether regular or +1, don't seem to do anything in EOB2 - clearly a bug (in EOB3, at least enchanted helms do affect AC, even if you get the cap -10 rather quickly). EOB1 was full of various rings, there is just 1 ring of feather falling in EOB2(!!). EOB1 was also otherwise full of overpowered items compared to EOB2. Also, only one usable bracers (+5) in EOB2. It takes quite a while to get the first level 5 mage scroll: azure 3 for wall of force and azure 4 for cone of cold. So most of the time those spell slots were wasted. Cleric got to level 5 and obtained access to true seeing only in azure 3. So unless you know the game already and/or have maps, some parts may be trickier. Also having to rely on magic dust to curing petrification, which could sometimes become an issue unless you know what you're doing in the medusa labyrinth and the trapping phase (so it takes guts not to pick up full 6, or you have to be careful with saves/reloads).

 

[Unkillable Cat]

The only other 'benefit' from playing EOB2 with a fresh party is that the Mage gets the Detect Invisibility-spell, which IIRC is utterly useless.

 

[Glop_dweller]

I'll tell a trick usable in EOB2. Cloudkill [Wall of Force] can be used in doorway tiles, and it prevents traps from working; from closing the door/wall.

There are a few places in EOB2 that are permanent traps; no escape, game over...by quiting due to being forever trapped. But if you cast the Wall of Force spell in the tile, the door/wall won't close. This even allows the player to aquire mutually exclusive loot, where the paths to all are closed after the first... not with Wall of Force in place.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I'll tell a trick usable in EOB2. Cloudkill can be used in doorway tiles, and it prevents traps from working; from closing the door/wall.

There are a few places in EOB2 that are permanent traps; no escape, game over...by quiting due to being forever trapped. But if you cast the cloudkill spell in the tile, the door/wall won't close. This even allows the player to aquire mutually exclusive loot, where the paths to all are closed after the first... not with Cloudkill in place.

You sure you got the right spell there, or aren't hacking the everliving shit out of the game?

Cloudkill (and Stinking Cloud, and Sleep, and Charm) were planned for the EOB-games... but never implemented, for numerous reasons. (Sleep is too similar to Hold Person/Monster, Charm couldn't be implemented because monster infighting couldn't be done, and Stinking Cloud/Cloudkill couldn't be implemented because the game couldn't do a temporary stationary area-dependant effect that hurt monsters, it was either projectile-based or immediate-effect based on party's position.)

That said, casting Wall of Force into certain tiles does prevent a few traps from working, particularly the Tropelet-seed trap with all the good loot. The problem is having to wait until you find the spell (or just use San-Raal) before solving that puzzle.

There is also at least one trap that is door-dependant, but a well-placed monster can disarm that trap and allow a clever player to grab the loot and escape the trap. Sure, it leaves a game a little glitchy afterwards, but nothing that a proper level-transition won't solve.

 

[octavius]

never implemented,

couldn't be done,

couldn't be implemented because the game couldn't do

Shoe horning AD&D into a DM clone sure was a good idea.

OK, the end results was quite an enjoyable game in practice, the less you know about the game mechanice (ignorance is bliss). In principle I rather detest EoB nowadays.

 

[Glop_dweller]

You sure you got the right spell there, or aren't hacking the everliving shit out of the game?

You are right, it's not cloudkill, it was Wall of Force; my mistake.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

OK, the end results was quite an enjoyable game in practice, the less you know about the game mechanice (ignorance is bliss).

This is why EOB "is so great", it takes only the most basic of AD&D concepts and uses them in the game. Otherwise it's trying to be its own beast (while ripping off Dungeon Master wholesale ).

The end result is a fun game for (almost) everyone, and opens the door to AD&D for those who want more.

 

[pjs]

One unique built-in feature of AD&D games (also with Gold Box) has been the ability to modify the characters (usually to the max). I wonder how many people actually play with non-modified (only rerolling allowed) characters? I have certainly always played all AD&D games with maxed-out character stats (at least the relevant ones) and I believe it's exceptional that you don't do it.

I suppose this changes certain things a bit (e.g., many NPCs could be much better than your original characters, and you might even be tempted to ditch your original ones). I suppose one of the most important attributes in EOB would likely be high CON, ensuring gaining sufficient number of hit points to not die so easily to direct attacks or area effects (especially single class mages could be extremely fragile otherwise). In gold box games, I suppose high DEX would also be essential for initiatives esp. for spellcasters. In EOB, I suppose the lack of STR would just make the battles take longer due to misses and lower damage output (not much impact in gold box, as you can use enlarge).

Just for kicks and slightly different experience and challenge, I'm considering a replay. Experiences and thoughts about playing with non-modified characters?

 

[Dorateen]

I used the modify characters option, but only to match their statistics that had been previously rolled for pen and paper.

 

[octavius]

Stats are like races. If all races have the same stats, why have races? And if all stats are 18, why have stats?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Its a challenge level. And you bought the game so do whatever you want. If you pirated it or dl'd abandonware who cares either. I've played them a variety of ways. You can also lower them down to minimal stats as well.

Now, warriors of the eternal sun (hybrid gameplay) has a double cheat menu you can access but it is a bitch. I only breached thd first layer. If you breach both you can edit just about anything. By default, you can't adjust stats but can only reroll.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

One unique built-in feature of AD&D games (also with Gold Box) has been the ability to modify the characters (usually to the max). I wonder how many people actually play with non-modified (only rerolling allowed) characters? I have certainly always played all AD&D games with maxed-out character stats (at least the relevant ones) and I believe it's exceptional that you don't do it.

I suppose this changes certain things a bit (e.g., many NPCs could be much better than your original characters, and you might even be tempted to ditch your original ones). I suppose one of the most important attributes in EOB would likely be high CON, ensuring gaining sufficient number of hit points to not die so easily to direct attacks or area effects (especially single class mages could be extremely fragile otherwise). In gold box games, I suppose high DEX would also be essential for initiatives esp. for spellcasters. In EOB, I suppose the lack of STR would just make the battles take longer due to misses and lower damage output (not much impact in gold box, as you can use enlarge).

Just for kicks and slightly different experience and challenge, I'm considering a replay. Experiences and thoughts about playing with non-modified characters?

CON is your only pure defensive attribute, stat-wise. STR is pure offence, while DEX both shares a defensive and offensive element, though the offensive element is a fringe factor.

Of the other three stats, WIS only means something to Clerics for bonus spells. Otherwise the stats can be whatever value you wish, and it won't make any difference.

I've played the game both with max stats and with min stats. The difference is not that notable, despite everything, until you get to EotB3. It takes the same amount of clicks to unstick stuck doors and such.

Westwood wanted EotB to be open and accessible to as many players as possible. Now you know how they went about it.

 

[Null Null]

Stats are like races. If all races have the same stats, why have races? And if all stats are 18, why have stats?

You can still give the races abilities like fire resistance and bonuses to hit certain monsters. Doesn't seem nuts to me halflings would have +1 DEX and -1 STR, given they're smaller, for instance.

I agree the move away from stat changes in races in tabletop takes away some of the flavor.

 

[octavius]

I agree the move away from stat changes in races in tabletop takes away some of the flavor.

"In the name of Diversity, stop that diversity!"

 

[pjs]

One unique built-in feature of AD&D games (also with Gold Box) has been the ability to modify the characters
Just for kicks and slightly different experience and challenge, I'm considering a replay. Experiences and thoughts about playing with non-modified characters?

I did a playthrough of EOB1-3 (two fighters, cleric, mage) this way with non-modified characters. In EOB1, I replaced the fighters with Keirgar and Anya as soon as I was able (reasonably good stats and HP, Keirgar excellent even). Calandra would have been a very similar replacement to Anya in EOB2. The run was pretty smooth nonetheless, even though the cleric and mage ended up being rather fragile (the cleric had less than 40 HP at the end of EOB3, the mage a bit more than 40 HP). Obviously the overpowered EOB1 items helped, especially in EOB2. EOB2 might involve a bit more heavy lifting if I you start with fresh characters and don't modify them - even if you start fresh with maximized characters, you can see the differences.

 

[JJT]

I created a wallpaper for Eye of the Beholder that when properly aligned with the game windows (EOTB + ASE) creates an old-school crpg border for immersion.

You must run your monitor in 1920x1080 PORTRAIT mode (VERTICAL) and the game in 720 for this to work.

The pixel art is not mine , I've cut & pasted it from screenshots of HOMM2.

It's not perfect but I thought I'd share.

Screenshot in use:
https://imgur.com/IkLw6rc

Wallpaper:

https://imgur.com/cZ7LTrA

Borderless Version Marble:

https://imgur.com/gyo7fS4

Borderless Version Black:

https://imgur.com/jmNAfzU

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Let's see if we can get your screenies to display better:
Screenshot in use:

Wallpaper:

Borderless Version Marble:

Borderless Version Black:

Just add .jpg to the imgur link and you're good to go.

 

[JJT]

Thanks for the formatting tip - I'm adding one more version black with the border.

https://imgur.com/tADGXJB.jpg

 

[affablePeafowl]

Some of y'all might recognize the name "Joseph B. Hewitt IV" from the manual, one of the three artists. He's talking about the C64 port (on the right, original DOS version in VGA on the left). Neat little easter egg to learn about three decades later.

 

[unseeingeye]

Some of y'all might recognize the name "Joseph B. Hewitt IV" from the manual, one of the three artists. He's talking about the C64 port (on the right, original DOS version in VGA on the left). Neat little easter egg to learn about three decades later.

May I please ask from which video this comment was posted on?

 

[unseeingeye]

Well I'm not sure from which video that was taken, but I did coincidentally just learn that the Eye of the Beholder port for the C64/128 project is finally finished and released a little over a month ago. That is so cool, I was just recently messing around with the DOS version and happened to see this announcement.

https://www.indieretronews.com/2022/11/eye-of-beholder-c64128-eagerly-awaited.html

 

[affablePeafowl]

Some of y'all might recognize the name "Joseph B. Hewitt IV" from the manual, one of the three artists. He's talking about the C64 port (on the right, original DOS version in VGA on the left). Neat little easter egg to learn about three decades later.

May I please ask from which video this comment was posted on?

Apologies for the late reply! Had to ask. It's a YTer named JemyM, who does "optimized playthroughs" for old school CRPGs, including the EOB trilogy. But the video in question is specifically a recent-ish upload where he cleared the C64 port in 3-4 hours. Should be easy to find since it's one of his newer vids, if you don't have any luck I'll see if I can get the direct link.

EDIT: and the link, for anyone else who happens to be curious!

He apparently uses the standard Pally/Fighter/Mage/Cleric party, but with an Elf fighter because of their "bonus to swords." That got my OCD going a bit, but otherwise I like his strategies a lot after checking out his playthrough for the DOS trilogy, especially his routing and item management (which lets him end up with exactly the right number of darts for the Lv8 Special Quest, and the right number of rocks and non-healing potions for grinding the maximum eight possible golems in Lv12—much handier than spawning and corralling hordes of cluck-cluckers on Lv6, IMO.) Gonna check out his EOB2 playthrough, if it's as streamlined as his EOB1 playthrough I'd be very impressed. Granted, that may speak less to his routing and more my sloppiness as a player and tendency to get lost even in levels I've cleared dozens of times; my last playthrough I think I turned the Chieftain's Halberd into a rock in the Azure Tower. Oops. Was keeping it for EOB3, but somehow never got around to playing it anyway. My trilogy runs always seem to end after EOB2, can't imagine why...

 

[unseeingeye]

Just wanted to share that I ended up downloading the recently released Commodore 64 version of Eye of the Beholder to check it out, and I am just like many other people utterly amazed at the accomplishment. It is a joy to play and a pleasure to look upon, and the music and sound effects are gorgeously recreated. One of the QOL features this version comes with enables you to quick-start the game by jumping in with a fully formed party, which I did for testing purposes and figured I'd grab some screenshots to share while I walked around interacting with the environment, moving items across and checking out the characters inventories, and fought a few simple battles. I'm running it in windowed mode on Vice using the C 128 launcher with the keyboard set to positional and control port II set to 1351 mouse (I also have my Xbox controller recognized which I sometimes use to play the C64 versions of the Gold Box games but haven't configured it for this game yet). The reason I used the C 128 version is obviously for the dual monitor feature; I run my games on a laptop but always keep it closed and within a cooling unit, so the monitor, mouse and keyboard are external and so I could open the laptop and actually use the two screens properly, but my widescreen is already massive so it isn't really necessary. The second screen shows an automapper that updates in real-time and requires no additional setting up to appear, you simply run the game in the C 128 executable from the "bat" subfolder and besides the two keyboard and mouse settings I mentioned above (taken from the notes section of the project website) it is ready to go, as soon as you load your party into the initial sewer screen the map will appear on the second screen. Also, depending on which version of the Vice emulator you're using the key controls for emulation variables may differ, but for the latest version I use Alt + M to enable or disable mouse-lock which is necessary if you plan to use the mouse. You can also change the display settings with a huge amount of options, maintain aspect ratio, determine how it appears in full screen mode, etc and you can click and hold to drag the corners of the windows and resize them to whatever you want which is very nice. I'll definitely be rolling a proper party and getting into this one over the coming weekend, this game is so awesome. If only I had the original hardware!

 

[Viata]

May give it a try been thinking in replaying the games.

 

[NJClaw]

In a desperate attempt to clear my backlog, I'm playing Eye of the Beholder for the first time and I think I can't hold my questions anymore:

1 - Exploring the level where mind flayers start mass-drugging and raping your party, I found a spellbook on a corpse. Can I somehow use it to learn new spells or are books just tools to cast the ones you already know?

2 - Is it possible to progress without using the portals that require "stone" items? I tried to ignore them at first, but I got stuck in the drow level and had to backtrack and use them to keep going down. I'm curious if that's the intended way to progress in the dungeon or if I just missed some mandatory keys.