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Wasteland The Wasteland 2 Beta Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
I like the skill dependency aspect. I don't think it will hugely reduce the freedom of character development, because in most cases it makes sense for the field medic to also be a surgeon (i.e. the guy who's likely to survive the battle), or for computer tech dude to also be smart enough at it to know some synth tech (i.e. the INT guy in the party). I mean, who is going to have Field Stripping on one dude and Weaponsmithing in another? And who is going to take one but not the other?

In general, by the way, I do think the system is too plain without any dependencies, perks, or whatnot. It's like half of SPECIAL.
 
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
1,567
You can use surgeon in combat, it's how you revive unconscious characters.
I tested halfway through writing that, which is why the last proposed solution listed that fix, but thanks in any case.

It's unfortunate that those skills aren't distinct, I'd prefer skill dependencies over combining them as well, it would keep it so a healer character doesn't only have one skill to invest in, as well the proposed doubling in skill point cost doesn't appeal to me.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
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Messages
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Third World
They obviously listen to feedback considering what a horrible minmash of concepts the dialogue screen is, for example. Perhaps they shouldn't.
 

janjetina

Arcane
Patron
Joined
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Messages
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Zagreb, Croatia
Torment: Tides of Numenera

Consider the following:
  • each MD has had training in surgery (and in anesthesiology), including some training in neurosurgery and pediatric surgery. While in practice complex surgeries can be performed only by specialized surgeons, each MD should be able to perform a simple emergency surgery.
  • This is Wasteland and qualified MDs are scarce. That means that they will need to be jack-of-all-trades doctors, as there is not enough of them to specialize.
  • We had similar historical situations in reality in extreme combat situations, like in besieged cities under constant enemy attacks. A family doctor may end up removing bullets and performing amputations, because he is the most qualified person available, while the hospital is constantly under artillery fire (for the popular example, see the movie "Der Untergang").
 

Jack Dandy

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
3,039
Location
Israel
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Man, I just don't get developers who put their games up in Early Access.

First impressions are VERY important for anything in life, and that includes games.
And for (what I'm pretty sure is) the majority of people, this kind of thing just ruins it. Paying a hefty sum for an incomplete game...

I mean, I realize that there are some great immediate benefits (getting more dosh for continued development, people basically paying you to be QA testers, getting lots of bug reports and feedback)..
But will it be good for the game in the long run?
I have a feeling that people who already slogged their way through the early access version, battling bugs and design issues, gradually having the game unlock at the dev's whim... will just kind of shrug at the final version. This is how they'll remember the game. This is how they'll talk about it in future discussions. And on top of that- these are the people who were originally excited enough about the game to be willing to buy it in it's pre-release state. The word-of-mouth factor will be irreversibly diminished.

And will that be worth it? :|
 

Jack Dandy

Arcane
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Messages
3,039
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Israel
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Heheh. I know. Honestly, when you think about it, it really is a pretty awful thing.

Think about one of your favorite games- and now imagine that all of the good experiences and memories you got from it are gone. Poof, deleted.

Some normalfags might go "hurr it's just a game", but consider this: everybody here has some games that were dear to them.
They'll forever hold good memories that are linked to these games, and enjoy reminiscing and discussing about them.

THIS could have been one of them.. but now it most likely won't be.
That's why I'm staying away from Early Access like fire.
 

Jack Dandy

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
3,039
Location
Israel
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Naturally- most games are their own case. Guess I should have specified that public Early Access is a bad idea for THIS sort of game.

I mean, stuff like Minecraft, Kerbal Space Prog, Prison Architect.. These kind of "Sandbox" games which have a sort of procedurally generated, constantly renewable enjoyment factor..
These titles have much more to benefit from this kind of release process.

But for RPGs like WL2 that are "set-in-stone", so to speak.. I think it's a very bad idea.

EDIT: And I reiterate- The people currently playing this? The folks who were looking forward to it the most?
THIS is the crowd that WOULD sing the loudest praises of the game, had they only played the final version.

Now their general opinion will be "Yeah I played it since Early Access, I'm glad the devs made it better".
 

Jack Dandy

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
3,039
Location
Israel
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Maybe.
But these titles weren't a part of this big Kickstarter boom. People don't have that kind of crazy anticipation for them.

I think the level of initial hype is an exponential factor to the general opinion about a finished product, but it's related to whether the hype itself is validated or not the first time you play it.

Like...
Mediocre Game ^ Hype = "This game was fucking SHIT"
Good game ^ Hype = "One of the best games to have come out in years!"
Unfinished game ^ Hype = "Meh."
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
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Messages
99,049
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Dunno, doesn't seem like a bad idea for AoD or Underrail.

I suspect that indie games are developed in such a way that a polished beta is easier to produce (longer development time, less structured development process - developer more likely to polish parts of the game at a time instead of doing it all at once at the end)
 

skuphundaku

Economic devastator, Mk. 11
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Rouge Angles of Satin
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2 My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Rose would comment on every section of the Ag-Center if you recruit her.
Yeah, but that's quest related. Angela also talks a lot on the Radio Tower, but after that she goes mute, except for one or two lines when meeting key NPCs.

I actually suggested on the feedback site for some more war cries from NPCs, in form of floating text during combat or entering a new area. It always gave lots of personality in Fallout and Baldur's Gate.

Scotchmo will steal snake squeezin's from you with regularity. Scotchmo will also turn on you if you dig up his wife. Angela can interject in some key situations (I think she can talk to raiders in first map, and then there's her noticing the bomb in the RN playground). Rose has a lot going on but that's most post-beta area.

And yes, you can lose control of party members. It's not so much going beserk as it is going rogue, the AI taking over, which can lead to nasty surprises like engaging another group in combat or getting into a bad spot and causing friendly fire, which is pretty much what Brian has in mind there. It sounds weird but it's that occasional self directed nature that sets em apart from PCs. This is partially dictated by a NPCs personality but that's not present in the beta unless I missed an occurence of it. Losing control is mostly tied to leadership skill IIRC.
Angela should attack me for digging Ace's grave? I did that with her in the party and she didn't do anything, not even a reaction on his notebook...
Angela does react if you try to dig up Ace's grave. I didn't take time to check whether she attacks you if you carry on and ignore her warning. I know for a fact that Scotchmo does attack if you dig up his wife's grave.
 

skuphundaku

Economic devastator, Mk. 11
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Codex 2012 Codex 2013 MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2 My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
And for the record, Field Stripping and Weaponsmithing are the same damn thing. If I know enough to take a gun apart I should be able to put it back together. If Forrest Gump can handle it then my Ranger should be able to without needing to significantly invest in two different skills. While on the topic, lets not forget how gamey and ridiculous Field Stripping is. Lets imagine the scenario where I have this nice sniper rifle that I'm dying to unassemble because the scope would be great on my assault rifle. So I break the gun down and I might get a scope! Or I might get a clip, or a stock or a barrel or nothing at all! I could potentially make all of these components of a gun magically disappear! Wat? Where does it all go? Why don't I know which part I will be getting from a gun when I break it down? Insanity.
Being a gunsmith doesn't mean just putting a gun together from parts. Putting it back together after stripping it to parts is the same skill as taking it apart in the first place. Also, it's important to note that field stripping is different from stripping a gun down to its nuts and bolts. Field stripping is usually a simple process, that can be done without tools, or, at most, with a limited number of tools and that is done just to do regular maintenance or fix easy to fix issues such as jams and such. Taking a gun apart completely is more complicated and will, most of the time, require tools. The main skill in field stripping is to be able to do it quick, without the need to understand that much about how the gun functions.

On the other hand, a gunsmith can build a gun not just from parts, but from raw materials because of his understanding of its functioning principles and design principles. The gunsmith is to somebody who field strips a gun like the architect and structural engineer together are to the common bricklayer.

If you dissemble a gun and you don't know what you're doing, you may lose parts (pins, springs etc) or damage them (some high end optics). You can install a scope badly and then wonder why the fuck it's not holding zero correctly.
 

LivingOne

Savant
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
485
One thing about ammo scarcity:I keep finding lots of bullets for the assault rifle,while I find very few ones for the shotgun.And I don't feel there's much difference in power between them to justify it,not at far as the starting weapons are concerned,at least.
Range accuracy for the sniper rifle could also be tweaked:if my sniper is attacked by melee enemies then I only need to take a single step back and I have a good 80% chance to hit(wich also makes this weapon a bit too similar the starting assault rifle).
 

Irxy

Arcane
Joined
Nov 13, 2007
Messages
2,015
Location
Schism
Project: Eternity
They obviously listen to feedback considering what a horrible minmash of concepts the dialogue screen is, for example. Perhaps they shouldn't.
What's wrong with dialogs? Haven't heard much of it since early screenshots.
 

Jick Magger

Arcane
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New Zealand
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria
Being a gunsmith doesn't mean just putting a gun together from parts. Putting it back together after stripping it to parts is the same skill as taking it apart in the first place. Also, it's important to note that field stripping is different from stripping a gun down to its nuts and bolts. Field stripping is usually a simple process, that can be done without tools, or, at most, with a limited number of tools and that is done just to do regular maintenance or fix easy to fix issues such as jams and such. Taking a gun apart completely is more complicated and will, most of the time, require tools. The main skill in field stripping is to be able to do it quick, without the need to understand that much about how the gun functions.

On the other hand, a gunsmith can build a gun not just from parts, but from raw materials because of his understanding of its functioning principles and design principles. The gunsmith is to somebody who field strips a gun like the architect and structural engineer together are to the common bricklayer.

I still think this kinda ties back to his central argument though. If we go by your description, then picking Field Stripping at all is pointless because a weaponsmith should logically be able to do everything that someone who specializes in field stripping can do, on top of knowing the intricacies of how the gun functions. If this is the case, then why not just streamline the two skills into some end-all 'gun maintenance' skill?

I dunno, to me it still sounds like pointless differentiation.
 

skuphundaku

Economic devastator, Mk. 11
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Rouge Angles of Satin
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2 My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Being a gunsmith doesn't mean just putting a gun together from parts. Putting it back together after stripping it to parts is the same skill as taking it apart in the first place. Also, it's important to note that field stripping is different from stripping a gun down to its nuts and bolts. Field stripping is usually a simple process, that can be done without tools, or, at most, with a limited number of tools and that is done just to do regular maintenance or fix easy to fix issues such as jams and such. Taking a gun apart completely is more complicated and will, most of the time, require tools. The main skill in field stripping is to be able to do it quick, without the need to understand that much about how the gun functions.

On the other hand, a gunsmith can build a gun not just from parts, but from raw materials because of his understanding of its functioning principles and design principles. The gunsmith is to somebody who field strips a gun like the architect and structural engineer together are to the common bricklayer.

I still think this kinda ties back to his central argument though. If we go by your description, then picking Field Stripping at all is pointless because a weaponsmith should logically be able to do everything that someone who specializes in field stripping can do, on top of knowing the intricacies of how the gun functions. If this is the case, then why not just streamline the two skills into some end-all 'gun maintenance' skill?

I dunno, to me it still sounds like pointless differentiation.
Gunsmithing should be a rather rare skill (maybe have it be more expensive to improve) but also more useful: create new weapons/do high quality modifications to existing ones while field stripping should be rather commonplace (have it be quite cheap to improve) but useful just for basic maintenance, or maybe even for low quality modifications. However, from what I understand, item degradation won't be implemented, which makes field stripping rather useless in this setup. What are the current implemented differences between field stripping and weaponsmithing? I haven't used them, so I am unaware of the in-game differences.
 

skyst

Augur
Joined
Jul 26, 2010
Messages
294
Location
Philadelphia, PA
Being a gunsmith doesn't mean just putting a gun together from parts. Putting it back together after stripping it to parts is the same skill as taking it apart in the first place. Also, it's important to note that field stripping is different from stripping a gun down to its nuts and bolts. Field stripping is usually a simple process, that can be done without tools, or, at most, with a limited number of tools and that is done just to do regular maintenance or fix easy to fix issues such as jams and such. Taking a gun apart completely is more complicated and will, most of the time, require tools. The main skill in field stripping is to be able to do it quick, without the need to understand that much about how the gun functions.

On the other hand, a gunsmith can build a gun not just from parts, but from raw materials because of his understanding of its functioning principles and design principles. The gunsmith is to somebody who field strips a gun like the architect and structural engineer together are to the common bricklayer.

If you dissemble a gun and you don't know what you're doing, you may lose parts (pins, springs etc) or damage them (some high end optics). You can install a scope badly and then wonder why the fuck it's not holding zero correctly.

You're really missing the point of the argument. The actions are so similar in scope that there is no reason for them to not be the same skill. You argue that Field Stripping is a simple process done without necessarily understanding the gun's functionality while a Gunsmith fully understands a firearm, could build one from scratch and is the structural engineer of ranged death. So explain to me why a Gunsmith can't Field Strip a firearm? This is the same basic argument as with Field Medic and Surgeon.

Also, if I need Field Stripping for regular maintenance, fixing jams and such, why can my party of Rangers without a Field Stripper use aged, prewar firearms in the field desert for extensive periods of time without worrying about a jam? Why don't I need training to load or operate a firearm at all? I have never handled one in real life and probably couldn't load an SMG properly, yet Ralphie can with no skill investment.

To the people who are adamantly defending having these multiple skills, do you think that some other skills should be split into different abilities? The most obvious example that comes to mind is Computer Tech. Do you really think that you should need different skillsets for unlocking loot containers or healing party members but everything done on a computer is okay to fall under one catagory? My wife has an IT degree from one of the better schools in the USA and is an excellent programmer but she can't fix her PC hardware, while I, an uneducated gamer who loves computers as a hobby, is able to.

Why do I need 2 skills to move a stock from one gun to another but someone half as skilled (say a level 4 vs a level 8 Ranger) could handle all aspects of Computer Tech with equal proficiency? Theoretically, Computer Tech will cover repairing computers, taking apart computers and everything that can be done with a working computer, roughly analogous to Gunsmithing, Field Stripping and one of the weapon proficiencies all rolled into a single skill.

Lastly, Safe Cracking is only an issue for some of you because there are so many safes in the game. Replace them with lockboxes, remove the skill and we're good to go. Safes are typically opened in RPGs without a skill anyway, as the player discovers the combination or uses something like Perception to hear the clicks, I really don't want to continue arguing how hard it is to crack a safe, but I'm fairly certain both methods were used well in Fallout 2 (Raider base south of Vault City).
 

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