Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

[hexer]

I wonder how much PST's development cost?
And what was PST's development cycle... 2 years based on James Lim's concept arts dated at 1997?

 

[Rev]

Interesting, I agree.
Didn't Avellone leave over this?

What does he have to do with it? He only designed a companion for T:ToN, he never had a big role in the project (he was still at Obsidian when this started, after all).

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

There's a good story to be told here, maybe in a few years some of the gory details will leak out. Tales of a sprawling mess, ripped apart to produce a pale shadow of the original vision when the money ran out. Or compromises to make the lucrative (lol) console version work, despite the public denials. Publishers. Clashes of egos, arguments over how to salvage the thing. Just hope the facts don't end up buried in the Strong museum with Cleve's Sir-Tech resignation letter. And that someone rescues Ziets.

Before then though, in the next few weeks/months, I fully expect the first retrospective articles/interviews to blame the entitled gamers/toxic community/unrealistic expectations for ruining everything. It's getting to that stage of a disappointing launch.

Yeah, and I don't even think one person can be blamed for this mess. It's easy to point fingers, Fargo and his henchmen, Heine this, Saunders that, but the production seems to have been such a clusterfuck. it cannot possibly be just one guy sucking...could it be...all of them?

 

[ArchAngel]

what exactly did brian mitsoda contribute to this game? and what did avellone contribute, besides "designing" Erritris (and not even writing his dialogue, from all i gathered)? all those people in the stretchgoals ended up having almost nothing to do with the game - or am i wrong?

Wait Avelone designed Erritris? Why do I then have Tybir in my party.. I thought that one was designed by MCA...

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

What does he have to do with it? He only designed a companion for T:ToN, he never had a big role in the project (he was still at Obsidian when this started, after all).

Not quite true though. He was supposed to write a companion, and be reviewing and providing feedback on all creative elements of the game, including the story, characters, and areas. Whether that actually happened is another story.

 

[DeepOcean]

There is a huge difference between being disappointed, being critical, and being an angry mob of fucking retards trying to destroy an rpg developer who is at least making real rpg games.

Mah God, I will have an heart attack discovering Inxile doesn't exist anymore and I won't get to play Wasteland 3 multiplayer and experience XCOM dramatic action cams pointed to prosper looking NPCs... how can I survive without this pleasure? But you know, they are isometric and have stats... so they are real rpgs, who said videogames must be fun, amirite?

This is the same shit that happened to Troika. Just fucking retarded people who do not even like rpgs trying to shut down a company because they are small, hate-mongering idiots.

Troika released the second best Fallout game after Fallout, Arcanum, released the best DnD implementation on the PC and they released the best Vampire the Masquerade game to PC that made me tolerate emo vampires for once. What InXile did? Russian Shovelware version of Planescape Torment? And Waste of a time 2? Actually this is offensive for the russians, they are really good Fallout modders that manage to make mods that are more fun to play and creative than Waste of a Time 2 and NumaNuma.

I have a ton of criticisms of this game. But it is way, way better than the last spiderweb game, any Bioware game, any Bethesda game, and any CD Project game. It is way, way better than any jrpg or Asian game.

For reals? So we waited and wasted all this time and money for some company to make a better game than Bioware? Mah God... it is like because someone make better sculptures than Prosper then he is the best artist on the world and worthy of be defended.

This is a real crpg. It has faults. It has issues. But instead of the rpg community supporting it, they attack to destroy, because this isn't an rpg site. It is a site for fucking fake-pedants being fucking idiots between playing their Asian games and AAA bullshit for kids.

Community supporting it? Please DU, if you are reading this, can you remind this tard how many community financing drives were made for kickstarter games on this very forum? And that we just finishing doing another? Sorry dude, support is a two way street, if Inxile is happy only going after us when it needs money then be fucking dishonest douchebags on the next 4 years, don't expect people to keep doing this shit of "supporting" for long.

 

[t]

(something something Goral sucks)

The battle of the most devoted fanboys begins!

 

[ArchAngel]

Only good thing out of this TToN disaster is that I can say to the people that claimed TToN will be unaffected by console version to go Fuck yourselves losers, you know jack shit about jack shit!

 

[Rev]

Not quite true though. He was supposed to write a companion, and be reviewing and providing feedback on all creative elements of the game, including the story, characters, and areas. Whether that actually happened is another story.

You consider that a big role in the project? He did that on Siege of Dragonspear too, but I wouldn't say that he was key to that game's production either.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Not quite true though. He was supposed to write a companion, and be reviewing and providing feedback on all creative elements of the game, including the story, characters, and areas. Whether that actually happened is another story.

You consider that a big role in the project? He did that on Siege of Dragonspear too, but I wouldn't say that he was key to that game's production either.

I don't know man. I'm just saying he did more than just write a companion.

And I wouldn't compare that to SoD at all. I think the way MCA whores himself out to do minor work on random projects is pointless, he comes in mid-production as an outsider and people probably nod like they give a shit, but what they really think is "yeah, what the fuck does this guy know, this is our project". But T:TON should've been different, he goes way back with all of these guys, they all worked under him at some point, and probably (hopefully?) look up to him and trust his judgement.

 

[Sòren]

Too many cooks spoil the broth, there was no individual with a personality strong enough to restrain all those greats and direct their endeavours at specific aspects of the game, add to that a fair share of middling writers who just wanted to impress the public with their reinterpretation of a classic game

while the "too many cooks..." thing is all too true, i don't think this is Numeneras main problem. having people working on different ingame areas actually made some parts - at least - interesting, like ziets for the bloom. but having people lke mcbomb and gavin (i have never heard of that fucker before, but they both seem like your average liberal arts student with no original thought in his brain) in key roles for a game that is supposed to present outstanding ideas was probably not the smartest decision.

don't know though. that was my feeling from the very beginning. i'm just lurking here since i enjoy the delicious drama.

 

[hexer]

Going through these old KS updates/promises makes me feel like reading the diary of a cheating ex.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-numenera/posts/443426

Voluminous Codex

We always intended for Torment to have a journal that would log your discoveries within the Ninth World. Not the kind of Journal that tells you exactly where you need to go next and what you need to do – you are an RPG connoisseur after all, and don’t need us to hold your hand. But what you might like is a journal to catalog your travels and discoveries, one to which you might refer when some past details elude you. One of your suggestions that we really liked was to take the journal quite a bit further. At this Stretch Goal, we’ll do that – we’ll expand the journal, giving you more lore, more creature and character portraits, and more information on interesting/important events as you come across them. As with the rest of the game’s user interface, the journal will be highly customizable to suit your tastes.

 

[Excidium II]

courtesy of Mr. Pink

 

[Fairfax]

I wonder how much PST's development cost?
And what was PST's development cycle... 2 years based on James Lim's concept arts dated at 1997?

Development cycle was a bit less than 2 years (early 97->December 1999). The budget hasn't been shared, I think. The development itself wasn't expensive because it had a very small team for roughly a year (MCA + a couple of artists and programmers who were also working on other projects).

 

[YES!]

All of your accumulatio really hurts. Like really bad. Owey!

There is just a bunch of ad baculum and ab hominem arguments.

You guys are unreasonable and eristic.

People can say what they want about Troika's games releases but you kids were probably all too young to remember that people just like you all killed that company. You all did the same to other great rpg developers that did not make your Asian games with no substance or complexity.

There is literally no reason to argue with children and a few eristic adults. You guys have fun being angry rpg-haters. I'll have fun knowing you're all retards.

And like all the great rpg developers from before, and currently, your unreasonable hate is now causing me to go away.

 

[Popiel]

What's your deal with Asian games, you shitface? It's you who keep mentioning them, what, were you assaulted by some Asian video game?

 

[ArchAngel]

All of your accumulatio really hurts. Like really bad. Owey!

There is just a bunch of ad baculum and ab hominem arguments.

You guys are unreasonable and eristic.

People can say what they want about Troika's games releases but you kids were probably all too young to remember that people just like you all killed that company. You all did the same to other great rpg developers that did not make your Asian games with no substance or complexity.

There is literally no reason to argue with children and a few eristic adults. You guys have fun being angry rpg-haters. I'll have fun knowing you're all retards.

And like all the great rpg developers from before, and currently, your unreasonable hate is now causing me to go away.

Bye bye!

 

[Sherry]

And like all the great rpg developers from before, and currently, your unreasonable hate is now causing me to go away.

Hi!

yus. Yus! YUS!

Oopsies. I mean yes. Yes! YES!

See you during the next Cave of Sorrows debacle right? No one puts my fluent in a corner okay?

p.s. for the record this is not hate okay just a pure I told you so.

Thanks,
Sherry

 

[hexer]

... people just like you all killed that company. You all did the same to other great rpg developers ...


... your unreasonable hate is now causing me to go away.

Dude, honestly you sound like someone dev hiding behind an alt who lost his marbles over bad Steam reviews.
Blaming other people for your own failures is a sign of cowardice.
And you're running away already instead of growing balls, admitting the errors and fixing them.
Your posts are totally personal, there's no way you're a die hard InXile fan.
There's some more intimate connection going on here.

 

[Excidium II]

Men...YES! = roqua lol

 

[Night Goat]

And like all the great rpg developers from before, and currently, your unreasonable hate is now causing me to go away.

Okay Dildolos, see you next week when you make another alt.

 

[vortex]

Just a thought.
What about they will add more content after hearing general opinion of the whole game?

Because, White March (PoE DLC) was recieved as good DLC and expansion as a whole after second part. There was a lot of feedback and balance tweaks after the release.
So, maybe there will be DLC expansion for T:TON after it will recieve all the feedback from the main game and than decide how to proceede with it.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

And like all the great rpg developers from before, and currently, your unreasonable hate is now causing me to go away.

Hi!

yus. Yus! YUS!

Oopsies. I mean yes. Yes! YES!

See you during the next Cave of Sorrows debacle right? No one puts my fluent in a corner okay?

p.s. for the record this is not hate okay just a pure I told you so.

Thanks,
Sherry

Hi Sherry.

What is your opinion on the recent reveal that Brian Fargo eats hamsters everyday?

It must be very scary and frightening.

Don't worry, we will keep you away from bad Fargo.

Remember to never go to inXile offices alone, especially at night!

Thanks,
JMR

 

[Gruncheon]

I know we're all speculating on 'what went wrong' here so my two cents is that the development process was really decentralised. One of the great things about the original Torment was how well it all hung together, nothing hangs together here. You get some good stuff in the Valley of Dead Heroes but the buildup is pretty dogshit. There doesn't feel like there's a unifying influence to the game. Or at least, it feels that the writers were told 'this here's the theme' and then left to their own devices to shite on on whatever they felt best represented that theme. There was no masterplanner sewing the whole thing together, more of a big brute slamming each part onto the next.

 

[TT1]

From Reddit:

TL;DR - There are 33 measurable stretch goals. 13 were cut. Also, 5 features of the base game were cut or significantly downsized (if you see others let me know).

Let's go through the list. Starting from the bottom. Leaving out vague promises ("more reactivity") and team members joining. If there are any corrections please let me know.

http://i.imgur.com/JmO7ks0.jpg


Stretch Goals

1.2 (million $)

• Gender with reactivity. Yes (one quest available to female and male)

1.5

• New area : Crystal dimension. Yes
• New Novella (Nathan Long). Yes

2

• More mark Morgan Music. Yes (50 songs in game)
• Live Orchestra. Cut
• New area: Ruins of Ossiphagan. Cut (mere only)
• New Companion- "The Toy". Cut. ("Oom, a changing ball of goo.")
• New Compansion - Secret. Cut. ("Satsada, a sibyl with no body of her own, who speaks through the mouth of Riastrad, a man whose mind is broken beyond repair.")
• Novellas (Mur and Tony). Yes

2.5

• Colin's Apology for the book of elves. Yes. (lol did multiple takes because he was snarky )
• Colin plays and commentates PS:T playthrough. Yes
• Novella (Monte Cook). Yes

2.75

• Castoff's Labyrinth - Reflections of companions / NPCs - Yes

2.85

• Expansive Epilogue - Yes (being generous. Wouldn't call it expansive)

3

• Secret Meres. Yes
• Increase legacy from 6 to 11. Yes (but legacies barely do anything)
• New cult - Order of the Endless Gate - Yes
• New Cult - The order of Flaggelants and Austerities. Cut
• New companion - Secret. Cut. ("A crippled beggar who devours magic to feed his addiction to the energies that flow through the numenera—and who can call upon that power to blast his foes with waves of pure force.")

3.1

• New cult - Dendra Ohur - Yes

3.35

• Lacunae - NPCs unique to the labyrinth. Cut

3.4

• Pat Rothfuss writes a companion. Yes (Rhin)

3.5

• Chris writes a companion. Yes (Erritis)

3.6

• Hall of Lingering Reflections. Cut.

3.75

• Increased companion depth, companion quests. Yes.
• Castoff's Labyrinth - alternate exit to another part of the Ninth World. Cut. (???)

4

• Number of legacies increased from 11 to 16. Yes (though legacies stripped down)
• Additional major city - Oasis of Mra Jollos. Yes (Replaced by Bloom, which I consider still fulfilling stretch goal to have two major hub cities. Oasis is mere only now)
• Even more Mark Morgan music. Yes (50 songs in game)

4.25

• Voluminous codex. Cut. There is a physical version but it does not match the "interactive journal" described in the goals.
• Crafting Numenera. Cut

4.5

• Player "Stronghold". Cut.

Castoff's Labyrinth

• 12 Fathoms Reached. Cut (there are 12 fathoms but this counts every floor of the labyrinth, including the one where you are rebuilding your memories and the lobby. And these 12 fathoms are basically quick end game floors. This does not match the backer description "The Castoff’s Labyrinth is a bizarre and interesting gameplay area, one of haunting exploration and discovery. As it grows, its secrets become deeper and more complex. Its depths are called Fathoms, and each brings new secrets and — for the determined — new rewards.")

Cuts to Base Game

• Focuses (now a flat bonus + a few choices of ability at each tier. Originally a key part that defines character)
• Legacies (now only impacts ending slides. Originally high levels of reactivity in items and manifested abilities)
• Italian localisation
• Novella. Originally 7 planned. 1 cut.
• Joinable factions

FIVE.MILLIONS.DOLLARS.

FOUR.YEARS.OF.DEVELOPMENT.

That is, summing up: