Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[torpid]

I wonder what determined the size of certain maps. Given the impressive size of some, I wonder why other areas are cut up into so many smaller maps. The size of most of the caves feels about right, the Core City drop zone maps being small also makes sense as the place is supposed to be a cramped, overpopulated slum. And balancing the difficulty is also involved: the larger the map, the larger the number of enemies that can swarm you if you start throwing nades. But their are some very weird ones: the entrance to the middle level of Core City (Arena, market), for example. You have one map that consists of the elevator and a tiny bit of platform, connected to another map that is also a small bit of platform plus a small part of the market, and finally a map with the market itself. Couldn't the first two maps at least be fused together? There are barely any NPCs, only a few guards, and one shop (the electronics store).

Another example is the entrance to Rail Crossing, made all the worse because there's a significant amount of backtracking involved in the RC quests. You have a map with the train station itself, but that map isn't directly connected to the settlement: first you have to go through a map south of that one, which only contains the literal rail crossing leading to the town. Couldn't the train station and the rail crossing, both totally empty--no enemies, no guards, no commoners--be a single map?

These are minor things, but combined with the slow movement speed they can contribute to the feeling of having to walk or backtrack a lot. Now changing the movement speed changes the difficulty, since you have an easier time walking past enemies, stealthed or unstealthed. But combining some of the maps, especially the emptier ones, wouldn't have any balance implications, and there are largely enough maps in the game that reducing their number wouln't harm the feeling of exploring and traveling through a network of underground tunnels (assuming that traveling from one map to another, rather than across one larger map, actually enhances that feeling).

 

[Grotesque]

Question

Spoiler

After powering the reactor in Deep Caverns and destroying and rebooting IRIS, the turrets are still hostile and the bots also.
Is this a bug?

 

[likaq]

How is single character turn-based combat in underrail? good?

I need more opinions.

 

[Ent]

Are pistol builds dead now? I remember having fun with one in early access.

 

[Excidium II]

It bothers me that there's a lot of stuff that affects your AP count/costs but there's nothing to do with leftover AP like carrying over to next turn or adding bonuses avoidance skills until next turn

 

[torpid]

Are pistol builds dead now? I remember having fun with one in early access.

I haven't played enough, nor have I actually tried a pistol-as-primary-weapon build (only used them as a secondary weapon), but yeah it seems suboptimal. Steadfast aim requiring a strength of 6 is annoying, as opposed to SMG builds where you can go all DEX all the time, and then I assume you go traps for opportunist-execute, but that one has a 5-turn cooldown. So you're just relying on crits (presumably with a .44 and its 32 base AP cost) and executions every 5 turns. Even with grenadier on top of that, I think it would get tedious fast. Bunch of enemies running around at low HP but you don't have time to finish them off before they heal themselves. I haven't tried any sprint-blitz shenanigans, so I don't know how much that would help.

The real issue is that steadfast aim, in addition to having a 6 STR requirement, forces you to use pistols with high base AP costs, so you're never going to have the firing rate of an SMG, which is OK, they're pistols after all, but is pistol damage high enough to compensate?

 

[ArchAngel]

It bothers me that there's a lot of stuff that affects your AP count/costs but there's nothing to do with leftover AP like carrying over to next turn or adding bonuses avoidance skills until next turn

If you have 10 AP extra you can go stealth. Or use some medication. Or move to better position.

 

[torpid]

It bothers me that there's a lot of stuff that affects your AP count/costs but there's nothing to do with leftover AP like carrying over to next turn or adding bonuses avoidance skills until next turn

If you have 10 AP extra you can go stealth. Or use some medication. Or move to better position.

What if he's playing a no-stealth melee brawler who's already tripping balls on half the drugs in the game?

 

[Excidium II]

If you have 10 AP extra you can go stealth. Or use some medication. Or move to better position.

If I have 10 ap extra i'll stab someone in the FEHS

 

[ArchAngel]

It bothers me that there's a lot of stuff that affects your AP count/costs but there's nothing to do with leftover AP like carrying over to next turn or adding bonuses avoidance skills until next turn

If you have 10 AP extra you can go stealth. Or use some medication. Or move to better position.

What if he's playing a no-stealth melee brawler who's already tripping balls on half the drugs in the game?

In that case it is for him to find the right build to use all his AP to its maximum.

 

[torpid]

The Motioner Build

 

[Excidium II]

You can't stealth with alert enemies and it rarely makes much of a difference to reposition one or two tiles unless you force them to come after you by breaking LoS or block each other on a narrow passage

 

[circ]

Are pistol builds dead now? I remember having fun with one in early access.

I haven't played enough, nor have I actually tried a pistol-as-primary-weapon build (only used them as a secondary weapon), but yeah it seems suboptimal. Steadfast aim requiring a strength of 6 is annoying, as opposed to SMG builds where you can go all DEX all the time, and then I assume you go traps for opportunist-execute, but that one has a 5-turn cooldown. So you're just relying on crits (presumably with a .44 and its 32 base AP cost) and executions every 5 turns. Even with grenadier on top of that, I think it would get tedious fast. Bunch of enemies running around at low HP but you don't have time to finish them off before they heal themselves. I haven't tried any sprint-blitz shenanigans, so I don't know how much that would help.

The real issue is that steadfast aim, in addition to having a 6 STR requirement, forces you to use pistols with high base AP costs, so you're never going to have the firing rate of an SMG, which is OK, they're pistols after all, but is pistol damage high enough to compensate?

I have a sniper/pistol character - 6 str. Does ok. 2 shot 44. with rapid shot you can get 3-400 criticals (total) if you get lucky. Haven't tested Execute as I just got it but lost interest in the character. If you're after maximizing damage then I wouldn't really put pistols up there with SMGs or ARs, but it does a good job cleaning up after snipe/aimed shot do their thang.

 

[Lhynn]

You can't stealth with alert enemies and it rarely makes much of a difference to reposition one or two tiles unless you force them to come after you by breaking LoS or block each other on a narrow passage

You can restealth if you incapacitate.

 

[Excidium II]

You can't stealth with alert enemies and it rarely makes much of a difference to reposition one or two tiles unless you force them to come after you by breaking LoS or block each other on a narrow passage

You can restealth if you incapacitate.

That's why I said with alert enemies

 

[torpid]

Are pistol builds dead now? I remember having fun with one in early access.

I haven't played enough, nor have I actually tried a pistol-as-primary-weapon build (only used them as a secondary weapon), but yeah it seems suboptimal. Steadfast aim requiring a strength of 6 is annoying, as opposed to SMG builds where you can go all DEX all the time, and then I assume you go traps for opportunist-execute, but that one has a 5-turn cooldown. So you're just relying on crits (presumably with a .44 and its 32 base AP cost) and executions every 5 turns. Even with grenadier on top of that, I think it would get tedious fast. Bunch of enemies running around at low HP but you don't have time to finish them off before they heal themselves. I haven't tried any sprint-blitz shenanigans, so I don't know how much that would help.

The real issue is that steadfast aim, in addition to having a 6 STR requirement, forces you to use pistols with high base AP costs, so you're never going to have the firing rate of an SMG, which is OK, they're pistols after all, but is pistol damage high enough to compensate?

I have a sniper/pistol character - 6 str. Does ok. 2 shot 44. with rapid shot you can get 3-400 criticals (total) if you get lucky. Haven't tested Execute as I just got it but lost interest in the character. If you're after maximizing damage then I wouldn't really put pistols up there with SMGs or ARs, but it does a good job cleaning up after snipe/aimed shot do their thang.

Yeah my first playthrough was also sniper + .44--the low-rate-of-fire-themed build. Snipe, flashbangs, traps and BIG CRITS. But the .44 alone probably wouldn't cut it.

 

[epeli]

I wonder what determined the size of certain maps. Given the impressive size of some, I wonder why other areas are cut up into so many smaller maps. The size of most of the caves feels about right, the Core City drop zone maps being small also makes sense as the place is supposed to be a cramped, overpopulated slum. And balancing the difficulty is also involved: the larger the map, the larger the number of enemies that can swarm you if you start throwing nades. But their are some very weird ones: the entrance to the middle level of Core City (Arena, market), for example. You have one map that consists of the elevator and a tiny bit of platform, connected to another map that is also a small bit of platform plus a small part of the market, and finally a map with the market itself. Couldn't the first two maps at least be fused together? There are barely any NPCs, only a few guards, and one shop (the electronics store).

Another example is the entrance to Rail Crossing, made all the worse because there's a significant amount of backtracking involved in the RC quests. You have a map with the train station itself, but that map isn't directly connected to the settlement: first you have to go through a map south of that one, which only contains the literal rail crossing leading to the town. Couldn't the train station and the rail crossing, both totally empty--no enemies, no guards, no commoners--be a single map?

The same question was bothering me for the longest time and I just recently remembered to ask Styg about it. It's pretty much as you guessed. Not a technical limitation, but a design choice. The engine can support larger zones with a lot going on in them, but some zones (like those in the drop zone) are smaller with lots of transitions to give them a more labyrinthine feel. And of course combat encounter balancing also plays a role in zones where that is relevant.

As for specific maps like the seemingly nonsensical entrance to middle level of core city... well, I imagine it must've looked different during development, but the zones weren't merged after the areas were reworked.

And I think the train stops outside Rail Crossing for a couple of reasons. The plot reason being that RC is a war zone when you first get the chance to visit it and the gameplay reason being that it's faster to reach other areas near RC this way.

 

[Blaine]

Although some of the oddly-sized map segments may be vestiges of the game's development, I've never really noticed them one way or another and, upon reflection, feel that they add variety. Take the seemingly useless L-shaped balcony leading to the Arena and merchants in Core City: perhaps there's a catwalk to that particular level from the elevator because it used to lead two ways, but the other side collapsed and a new railing was erected; or perhaps there's some massive old machinery just out of sight, wrapped around the superstructure, restricting how the level can be built.

 

[Excidium II]

And firearm pistols pigeonhole your feat choices too much. I'm not even sure you have the luxury of taking grenadier + three-pointer

 

[Lord Andre]

Meh... I liked this game from the start. Combat and exploration are amazing. Character system is pretty awesome too...BUT

BUT there are 2 things that I have to admit that are complete shit to me. Core City's billion mini areas that are making me transition through 7+ small-nothing-in-them maps to turn a quest in or buy some shit. I don't care what they add in atmosphere, the idea is bad. Second, the psi apparitions. They weren't cute on silent isle making me stare at glowing mushrooms every 15 seconds and they sure as hell aren't cute in the sewer quest with Jewquela deVille. Oh, you put a galvanic vest in a barrel on the map. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. NO fuck you! I ain't transitioning through 10 maps to buy a ballistic panel to craft a fucking electric resistent vest and then another 10 maps back. I'll just one shot the bitch and make a bee-line to the map transition place cause enemies can't cross over maps...asshole! How come if the bitch is dead the clones don't dissapear with her. Is she maintaining them from the grave? FUCK! I wish I could go back to Silent Isle and place 10 dynamite charges around the crystals and blow the disgusting things sky high.

faggot rant over/

At least the bitch left a 99 quality pelt. Shiiiit! I'll be making some dope jordans out of that...

 

[oneself]

A craft plasma pistol can easily get 250% Crit multiplier before any feat crits get applied. I think it can work fantastically with critical power and other crit feats.

 

[Tigranes]

Although some of the oddly-sized map segments may be vestiges of the game's development, I've never really noticed them one way or another and, upon reflection, feel that they add variety. Take the seemingly useless L-shaped balcony leading to the Arena and merchants in Core City: perhaps there's a catwalk to that particular level from the elevator because it used to lead two ways, but the other side collapsed and a new railing was erected; or perhaps there's some massive old machinery just out of sight, wrapped around the superstructure, restricting how the level can be built.

That's all understandable, but the result is that there are SO MANY areas in the game that are SO BORING to walk through MULTIPLE TIMES as you backtrack. It's about how it adds up.

torpid already noted Rail Crossing. How pointless is it to require 2 extra map transitions after reaching the train station? And then, of course, everything useful (the mayor, the doc, the gunman) is in the other corners of that shitty little town.

junkyard -> rail crossing? that means in terms of maps junkyard docks -> SGS docks -> SGS level 9 -> SGS level 1 -> rail crossing station -> empty rail crossing -> rail crossing.

The L-shape in the Core City middle level is one of several others in that city. It looks even worse at first, and then you realise some of those areas at least have something connected to quests.

The Institute design is just broken from the start. Almost every area is 4 times as big as it needs to be, and could easily be folded into one. I mean, it looks very cool, but why do you need to go through something like 16 map transitions just to visit the 3 investigation questgivers/shops? All those huge stairs.

I don't mind something like the Drop Zone, or areas in lower Underrail / caves, being full of 'pointless' areas. You're meant to wander in those areas, and they're meant to be barren, and it's predictable if every area has some hotspot, like a multi-area version of Oblivion.

But consider the way these areas are then worked into quests. Discovering info about the Beast? Discounting the actual exploration inside the mines (which at least is quest-relevant gameplay), you're getting the quest from the Mayor (already 3 screen transitions from the train station); then you go to the mines to talk to the dudes (2); hen you go to SGS, ask about something, come back to the mines (~12 screens round trip); and then, if you don't have metaknowledge, you GO BACK to SGS, talk to some other guy, go back to the mines, get something else, go back to SGS again, then go back to the mayor (~24 screens). That's like 40 fucking screens for what could have been a mildly interesting investigation inside the mines.

Lost Train, similarly, if you want to pick one particular side, means 50+ map transitions to fully play it out, and again, the actual core encounter is interesting, it's just wrapped up in dozens of 'go there go back go there'.

Underrail has such good level design when it comes to specific 'dungeons', and the actual exploration in wilderness areas is cool, it's such a pity questing often involves "ugh not again".

 

[marux]

How is single character turn-based combat in underrail? good?

I need more opinions.

good

 

[Excidium II]

for

 

[Darth Roxor]

what