Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[ArchAngel]

Spoiler

You get one canister of fluid from tchortist, but you don't have to free the prisoners or fight the faceless for that. Just dress in a tchortist armor, go into the camp and ask the tchortist leader for a quest. He'll tell you to scout the faceless camp and free the prisoners, but: finding the faceless camp is enough. You can report back and tell him you didn't manage to find those prisoners, and he'll be okay with that. The annoying part about this quest is that if you kill all the tchortists instead, you won't get access to the storage with the canister. I think the faceless have another one hidden, so you can kill them instead, but that is a tough battle. I've found them far more challenging than all the dc critters combined.
The other two canisters should be in the same area, I think.

As for those mushroom leftovers, there is a machine next to the mutagen scanner; put the leftovers there and you'll get psimorphic grenades for the gate.

Power plant is just looking for the keys. First one is in the area you enter, second in the east room, I think. (there is so much back-and-forth there that it's easy to forget) Also, once you find the power room, look for the AI room too, because you need an item it has. (that was a mistake I've made with my mage and then spent unnecessary time trying to find that item in various other areas)

Spoiler

Haha tnx for that tip about the AI core, I forgot about that and would not ever do that and then come back later to ask where to get that for the bot :D
But do you need the bot for repairs? I got good mechanics and electronics and found a book for that as well.
I am more interested where to find last two canisters and a key for the door to Thcort

 

[AW8]

Spoiler

a) cannot help you with that fluid, I also only found 1 in some area with burrowers somewhere south. I read from spoilers that you can get another if you ally with Tchortists and save the prisoners from Faceless but I would guess there should be 2 more somewhere for people that don't do that.
b) That is the Arke Power Plant. You need to click on red doors pads after you find keys around two levels you have access at the start. I am not 100% sure if all keys to those doors can be found inside the Plant or some outside. Eventually you should be able to open the door in east part of the Plant that will let you access the ladders to the level below that will eventually take you to more keys that let you open more red doors and get a Power Plant control key that turns off the security systems and lets you control the power around the Deep Caverns
c) Then when you can control the power around the Deep Caverns you need to give power to Hollow Earth main complex and there you can find the rest.
d) Talk to the old man left of storage area and find his dagger, what he teaches you makes travelling around Hollow Earth a bit more bearable. Personally I think this should have been default speed of getting the Debuff stacks on yourself and then his quest in addition lowers the penalty of the debuff

Spoiler

Unlocked the power management room and gave power to hollow whatever and some other things. Lucked out and found 2 canisters in a storage where the Faceless control.

Went back to the gate, repaired it. Went up, tried the controls. "No power". WHAT DO YOU MEAN NO POWER WHERE THE HELL WERE I SUPPOSED TO REDIRECT THE POWER THEN, HOOVER DAM AND THE STRIP!?!? AAAAAAUuuuuUHGAGegg I'M NOT SNEAKING PAST THOSE FACELESS AND TCHORTLINGS AGAIN!!!!!!!!

I can't take more of this shit today. Fuck Deep Caverns, give me Old Junkyard again

 

[ArchAngel]

Spoiler

a) cannot help you with that fluid, I also only found 1 in some area with burrowers somewhere south. I read from spoilers that you can get another if you ally with Tchortists and save the prisoners from Faceless but I would guess there should be 2 more somewhere for people that don't do that.
b) That is the Arke Power Plant. You need to click on red doors pads after you find keys around two levels you have access at the start. I am not 100% sure if all keys to those doors can be found inside the Plant or some outside. Eventually you should be able to open the door in east part of the Plant that will let you access the ladders to the level below that will eventually take you to more keys that let you open more red doors and get a Power Plant control key that turns off the security systems and lets you control the power around the Deep Caverns
c) Then when you can control the power around the Deep Caverns you need to give power to Hollow Earth main complex and there you can find the rest.
d) Talk to the old man left of storage area and find his dagger, what he teaches you makes travelling around Hollow Earth a bit more bearable. Personally I think this should have been default speed of getting the Debuff stacks on yourself and then his quest in addition lowers the penalty of the debuff

Spoiler

Unlocked the power management room and gave power to hollow whatever and some other things. Lucked out and found 2 canisters in a storage where the Faceless control.

Went back to the gate, repaired it. Went up, tried the controls. "No power". WHAT DO YOU MEAN NO POWER WHERE THE HELL WERE I SUPPOSED TO REDIRECT THE POWER THEN, HOOVER DAM AND THE STRIP!?!? AAAAAAUuuuuUHGAGegg I'M NOT SNEAKING PAST THOSE FACELESS AND TCHORTLINGS AGAIN!!!!!!!!

I can't take more of this shit today. Fuck Deep Caverns, give me Old Junkyard again

Spoiler

How did you repair the gate without two canisters?
Went up where?
Kill Faceless and run through Tchortlings areas when you got no debuff.

 

[hell bovine]

Spoiler

You get one canister of fluid from tchortist, but you don't have to free the prisoners or fight the faceless for that. Just dress in a tchortist armor, go into the camp and ask the tchortist leader for a quest. He'll tell you to scout the faceless camp and free the prisoners, but: finding the faceless camp is enough. You can report back and tell him you didn't manage to find those prisoners, and he'll be okay with that. The annoying part about this quest is that if you kill all the tchortists instead, you won't get access to the storage with the canister. I think the faceless have another one hidden, so you can kill them instead, but that is a tough battle. I've found them far more challenging than all the dc critters combined.
The other two canisters should be in the same area, I think.

As for those mushroom leftovers, there is a machine next to the mutagen scanner; put the leftovers there and you'll get psimorphic grenades for the gate.

Power plant is just looking for the keys. First one is in the area you enter, second in the east room, I think. (there is so much back-and-forth there that it's easy to forget) Also, once you find the power room, look for the AI room too, because you need an item it has. (that was a mistake I've made with my mage and then spent unnecessary time trying to find that item in various other areas)

Spoiler

Haha tnx for that tip about the AI core, I forgot about that and would not ever do that and then come back later to ask where to get that for the bot :D
But do you need the bot for repairs? I got good mechanics and electronics and found a book for that as well.
I am more interested where to find last two canisters and a key for the door to Thcort

You might not need it then (don't know how high the check). The key is

Spoiler

in the housing complex. You'll need to redirect power to it before you can access it, of course. You'll need to find the janitor's key first, and then search all the rooms. Can't help with the canisters, I've found only two too.

Spoiler

a) cannot help you with that fluid, I also only found 1 in some area with burrowers somewhere south. I read from spoilers that you can get another if you ally with Tchortists and save the prisoners from Faceless but I would guess there should be 2 more somewhere for people that don't do that.
b) That is the Arke Power Plant. You need to click on red doors pads after you find keys around two levels you have access at the start. I am not 100% sure if all keys to those doors can be found inside the Plant or some outside. Eventually you should be able to open the door in east part of the Plant that will let you access the ladders to the level below that will eventually take you to more keys that let you open more red doors and get a Power Plant control key that turns off the security systems and lets you control the power around the Deep Caverns
c) Then when you can control the power around the Deep Caverns you need to give power to Hollow Earth main complex and there you can find the rest.
d) Talk to the old man left of storage area and find his dagger, what he teaches you makes travelling around Hollow Earth a bit more bearable. Personally I think this should have been default speed of getting the Debuff stacks on yourself and then his quest in addition lowers the penalty of the debuff

Spoiler

Unlocked the power management room and gave power to hollow whatever and some other things. Lucked out and found 2 canisters in a storage where the Faceless control.

Went back to the gate, repaired it. Went up, tried the controls. "No power". WHAT DO YOU MEAN NO POWER WHERE THE HELL WERE I SUPPOSED TO REDIRECT THE POWER THEN, HOOVER DAM AND THE STRIP!?!? AAAAAAUuuuuUHGAGegg I'M NOT SNEAKING PAST THOSE FACELESS AND TCHORTLINGS AGAIN!!!!!!!!

I can't take more of this shit today. Fuck Deep Caverns, give me Old Junkyard again

When in doubt

Spoiler

unplug everything, sometimes new option to direct power show up then. Also, you'll need a keycard for the gate as well.

I'm stuck at the tchort institute again. The worst part is that I've solved this quest before, but now it doesn't want to trigger.

Spoiler

The rejected refuse to leave their cells again. If I didn't feel sorry for the poor tentacle guys...

 

[AW8]

Spoiler

How did you repair the gate without two canisters?
Went up where?
Kill Faceless and run through Tchortlings areas when you got no debuff.

Spoiler

You misunderstand, I had found all the parts. An accumulator, a shaft, a... thingamojing, 3 canisters, a toolset and 130 Mechanics.

When in doubt

Spoiler

unplug everything, sometimes new option to direct power show up then. Also, you'll need a keycard for the gate as well.

Spoiler

I have absolutely no idea what option will power the gate though.

I'll re-route power to the residental area next time I'll play, the building with coil spiderwebs. Seeing as it was full of doors that lacked power. I guess I'll just have to run/fight through Tchortlings/Faceless/bots for the umpteenth time (many of which that easily squashes my sneaky character).

 

[ArchAngel]

Spoiler

You get one canister of fluid from tchortist, but you don't have to free the prisoners or fight the faceless for that. Just dress in a tchortist armor, go into the camp and ask the tchortist leader for a quest. He'll tell you to scout the faceless camp and free the prisoners, but: finding the faceless camp is enough. You can report back and tell him you didn't manage to find those prisoners, and he'll be okay with that. The annoying part about this quest is that if you kill all the tchortists instead, you won't get access to the storage with the canister. I think the faceless have another one hidden, so you can kill them instead, but that is a tough battle. I've found them far more challenging than all the dc critters combined.
The other two canisters should be in the same area, I think.

As for those mushroom leftovers, there is a machine next to the mutagen scanner; put the leftovers there and you'll get psimorphic grenades for the gate.

Power plant is just looking for the keys. First one is in the area you enter, second in the east room, I think. (there is so much back-and-forth there that it's easy to forget) Also, once you find the power room, look for the AI room too, because you need an item it has. (that was a mistake I've made with my mage and then spent unnecessary time trying to find that item in various other areas)

Spoiler

Haha tnx for that tip about the AI core, I forgot about that and would not ever do that and then come back later to ask where to get that for the bot :D
But do you need the bot for repairs? I got good mechanics and electronics and found a book for that as well.
I am more interested where to find last two canisters and a key for the door to Thcort

You might not need it then (don't know how high the check). The key is

Spoiler

in the housing complex. You'll need to redirect power to it before you can access it, of course. You'll need to find the janitor's key first, and then search all the rooms. Can't help with the canisters, I've found only two too.

Spoiler

I found two canisters in storage area when I gave power to the door there and I found one down south behind some burrowers. Now I managed to repair the gate, I am now going to get that key from residential and then try to find the Mushroom King and kill him.
Anyone knows in which room that one is?
Using this picture http://i.imgur.com/mmdM43Q.png

If I ever finish this DC, and ever play this game again as far as I am concerned the game ends at DC elevator.

 

[hell bovine]

Spoiler

How did you repair the gate without two canisters?
Went up where?
Kill Faceless and run through Tchortlings areas when you got no debuff.

Spoiler

You misunderstand, I had found all the parts. An accumulator, a shaft, a... thingamojing, 3 canisters, a toolset and 130 Mechanics.

When in doubt

Spoiler

unplug everything, sometimes new option to direct power show up then. Also, you'll need a keycard for the gate as well.

Spoiler

I have absolutely no idea what option will power the gate though.

I'll re-route power to the residental area next time I'll play, the building with coil spiderwebs. Seeing as it was full of doors that lacked power. I guess I'll just have to run/fight through Tchortlings/Faceless/bots for the umpteenth time (many of which that easily squashes my sneaky character).

You need to redirect the power to that area anyway.

Spoiler

The keycard for the gate is in one of the locked rooms. You can also learn about what happened there by reading the computer chat logs.

Spoiler

I found two canisters in storage area when I gave power to the door there and I found one down south behind some burrowers. Now I managed to repair the gate, I am now going to get that key from residential and then try to find the Mushroom King and kill him.
Anyone knows in which room that one is?
Using this picture http://i.imgur.com/mmdM43Q.png

If I ever finish this DC, and ever play this game again as far as I am concerned the game ends at DC elevator.

If you mean the shrooms, then

Spoiler

You just need to let that shroom debuff stack, then you'll go on a drug trip and land in some other area, either close to the king or with the king (I don't remember anymore).

EDIT: also, ending it at the elevator makes sense:

Spoiler

Just attack the tchortists, that's a lot of tough but fun battles, and you can consider Eiden the "final boss".

 

[toro]

I have to reconsider my stance on Persuation:

Junkyard:

Spoiler

50 Persuation allows you to convince SGS to help the Black Eels which will impact the end game for this location.

Camp Hathor:

Spoiler

65 Persuation allows you to make a truce with the Rathound King which is something I really like.

Rail Crossing:

Spoiler

65 Persuation (or perhaps 50+ !?) allows the player to convince the Mind Reader to leave Buzzer alive.

 

[Declinator]

I have to reconsider my stance on Persuation:
Junkyard:

Spoiler

50 Persuation allows you to convince SGS to help the Black Eels which will impact the end game for this location.

Spoiler

Actually I didn't need any persuasion for that. I just said "I'll let you guys hash it out" or something to that effect and they decided to help Black Eels anyway.

 

[I'm Big Into Anal]

all these spoiler bubbles on this page look like drops of cum from the codex diseased penis splattered to the four winds with no regard

 

[toro]

I have to reconsider my stance on Persuation:
Junkyard:

Spoiler

50 Persuation allows you to convince SGS to help the Black Eels which will impact the end game for this location.

Spoiler

Actually I didn't need any persuasion for that. I just said "I'll let you guys hash it out" or something to that effect and they decided to help Black Eels anyway.

Could it be random?

 

[mixer]

Spoiler

Actually I didn't need any persuasion for that. I just said "I'll let you guys hash it out" or something to that effect and they decided to help Black Eels anyway.

Same here but i think i read somewhere that was fixed in a patch.

 

[Blaine]

Deep caverns are definitely is tough for certain builds, but I'd disagree about punishing weak builds. My mage's stats, skills and feats are all over the place (she ended with 10 will ) and the majority of encounters weren't difficult, because enemy groups don't vary; she still uses the same fireball/grenade spam as before, only now she needs to pile more damage. It's like KazikluBey wrote: combat takes too much time.

Yeah, on the whole I very much agree with KazikluBey. I'd been pondering this while I was out today, and realized how right he was about DC's combat. My Jedi is just strong enough to kill many critters (

Spoiler

Shroomlings, Burrower Soldiers, Cuttlesnails, even Industrial Bots

) in one or sometimes two turns, but the combat's just a chore. It SEEMS dangerous at first, until you realize that's just some nervousness based on how tough they are to kill.

The fights with mixed groups of humanoids are both much more interesting and also more tactically challenging than what 90% of DC has to offer. I have to think, and plan, and move carefully when assaulting a gang or base, and even if my plan works swimmingly and I slaughter the place, I know if I'd played my cards wrong I might have been Mental Breakdown'd or stunned and overwhelmed, and killed.

In DC it's essentially just a matter of spraying mass quantities of damage at Homo McHitpointe and his pal Fagsy Von Healthinstein... then do it again when they respawn five minutes later, wasting yet more of your time that needn't have been wasted.

 

[Jack Dandy]

Speeeeeeeeedhaaaaaaaaaaacccccckk...

 

[hell bovine]

Deep caverns are definitely is tough for certain builds, but I'd disagree about punishing weak builds. My mage's stats, skills and feats are all over the place (she ended with 10 will ) and the majority of encounters weren't difficult, because enemy groups don't vary; she still uses the same fireball/grenade spam as before, only now she needs to pile more damage. It's like KazikluBey wrote: combat takes too much time.

Yeah, on the whole I very much agree with KazikluBey. I'd been pondering this while I was out today, and realized how right he was about DC's combat. My Jedi is just strong enough to kill many critters (

Spoiler

Shroomlings, Burrower Soldiers, Cuttlesnails, even Industrial Bots

) in one or sometimes two turns, but the combat's just a chore. It SEEMS dangerous at first, until you realize that's just some nervousness based on how tough they are to kill.

The fights with mixed groups of humanoids are both much more interesting and also more tactically challenging than what 90% of DC has to offer. I have to think, and plan, and move carefully when assaulting a gang or base, and even if my plan works swimmingly and I slaughter the place, I know if I'd played my cards wrong I might have been Mental Breakdown'd or stunned and overwhelmed, and killed.

In DC it's essentially just a matter of spraying mass quantities of damage at Homo McHitpointe and his pal Fagsy Von Healthinstein... then do it again when they respawn five minutes later, wasting yet more of your time that needn't have been wasted.

Oh, I agree.

Spoiler

The faceless camp was the toughest battle for me so far.

And that is my main gripe with deep caverns: that there could be more encounters like this. This is supposed to be the battlefield between two forces, with the player caught in the crossfire. Instead both forces are sitting around doing nothing, and you are left fighting shrooms and other associated vermin.

 

[Sykar]

Speeeeeeeeedhaaaaaaaaaaacccccckk...

Is for pussies.

 

[Goromorg]

Speeeeeeeeedhaaaaaaaaaaacccccckk...

Is for pussies.

You have no balls to try it out.

 

[ArchAngel]

Story comment about DC

Spoiler

So apparently Dude was in DC at some point. I found people mention Dude and also dude talks about getting high on mushrooms and ending up somewhere else when you talk to him which is what seems to happen in DC as well

 

[Sinatar]

I've played a ridiculous amount of RPG's in my life and I feel pretty confident in saying that Deep Caverns is the worst area I've ever played through in an RPG.

I'm thinking Styg either farmed it out to his autistic intern or did a shitload of shrooms before working on it to get in the mood for the mushroom garden. Either way, what a mess.

 

[Blaine]

Could we perhaps start listing the specific reasons why we think Deep Caverns is bad, rather than just doing a drive-by shitting?

 

[hell bovine]

I think the major problem with dc is that a lot fo things are just overdone; on their own they wouldn't be that noticeable, but together they just pile up:

Spoiler

1. finding a way to trick the eye of tchort would be an interesting idea, if the solution wouldn't require you to stare at your character standing still for almost a minute every time;

2. having to brave a maze to find that one item needed to progress would be fine, but having to backtrack through several areas with respawning monsters to get several such items... there is only so many times you can murder the burrowers before the power plant, before you want to murder the designer instead;

3. combat underdelivers, because enemies aren't that dangerous to you, they just take a lot to kill.

I'd be willing to - not maybe overlook, but at least tolerate - no. one and two, if not for the combat. This is the final stretch of the game, and as cliche it sounds, this is where I want to see epic battles, where I put my favourite movie soundtrack in the background and watch my poor character die heroically again and again, until I figure out a way to beat the enemy. But right now I am feeling like I'm playing a pest exterminator.

 

[ST'Ranger]

Could we perhaps start listing the specific reasons why we think Deep Caverns is bad, rather than just doing a drive-by shitting?

Spoiler

It's somewhat difficult to fairly do that, especially in this thread. In-depth criticism involves a lot of spoilers. Some of these spoilers are very deep and would spoil things even for those who have already completed the game (but didn't experience or realize certain things in their playthrough).

I think the most fundamental issue with DC is that it's just not like the rest of the game. It's an exploration puzzle, a scavenger hunt. A lot of people would dislike it even if it was really good just for that reason. The combat that's available there overall is not satisfying, and there is no impetus to participate in combat. The combats that are available are a nuisance, not only because they are poorly designed and overly punish certain builds/playstyles but also because they merely serve to get in the way of completing the exploration puzzle. If you don't like exploration puzzles (many people seem to dislike them), the annoying poorly-designed combats available to you are even more annoying because they're getting in the way of completing an objective you want nothing to do with.

This is all so far removed from the rest of the game, where if there are some kind of puzzles they are very constrained/optional. The rest of the game, the combat is you against some political faction or against the underworld or against the very lifeblood of human existence in this post-apocalyptic world. In DC, the combat is against critters and serves no purpose. In the rest of the game, the combat is a natural outcome of situations the player finds themselves in - being on the wrong side of politics or over money or just from plain human wickedness.

I liked the exploration puzzle, aside from the labyrinth and fungus maze which were terrible. I liked the Arke power station - absolutely everything about it was cool except those burrowers in the front which are annoyingly numerous. I liked hunting around the powered areas of DC for clues and items. I really like the mutagen puzzle and honestly get overexcited about it every time I hit DC. But even though I liked the fundamental aspect of DC, I felt a void from the lack of satisfying combat - a void which I would never have guessed would exist in this game, whose shining beacon is its amazing combat.

 

[Sinatar]

Could we perhaps start listing the specific reasons why we think Deep Caverns is bad, rather than just doing a drive-by shitting?

Sure.

1: Infinitely Respawning enemies!

Solution: Don't

2. Not one, but TWO giant massive zone spanning fetch quests with key items arbitrarily stashed away in random barrels and garbage bins!

Solution: Have less items to find and put them in more important areas.

3. A stupid labyrinth full of annoying HP bloated enemies that not only infinitely respawn, but can't be run past because the maze doesn't use traditional zone exits!

Solution: Allow people to interact with the tunnel exits while in combat. Also don't respawn the fucking deep worms.

4. A SECOND labyrinth full of HP bloated enemies as well as areas that inflict a crippling debuff. Oh and the solution to the puzzle in this area is almost as obtuse as the cliff tornado in Simon's Quest. I'm going to spoil it here so other folks don't have to suffer that shit like I did:

Spoiler

So there are spore fields all over this area that when walked in hit you with a debuff that costs 2% of your health and it stacks up to 40 times. The trick to this area is to purposefully let yourself get debuffed by 80% of your health at which point your character will magically teleport to a whole new area (for no logical reason that I can discern) wherein you can kill the boss monster and get the key item you need.

Solution: Since the solution to puzzle in this area requires you to play the game like a fucking retard, come up with an alternate method of getting to the solution for people who don't actively fuck themselves over with poor play.

5. Insane amounts of backtracking! You have to activate this massive power station, but it can only power up a couple of areas at a time. Said areas of course aren't labelled because the game doesn't have a bloody map, so you get to experiment by treking all the way to the far end of the map to the powerstation to turn on the juice at some spot. Then you wander around until you find somewhere with the lights on and hope that there is something you need to do there. Repeat this process like 4 or 5 times. Did I mention that there are INFINITELY RESPAWNING ENEMIES EVERY. FUCKING. PLACE. YOU. GO. Oh yea I did in point one.

Solution: Once you activate the power station have it power all areas at once. There is literally no reason for the limited power beyond forcing the player to trudge back and forth across this shit ass area.

6. Annoying as shit debuffs! Not one but two crippling debuffs can be found in this fucking dumpster fire of an area, one of which makes you fragile as fuck, the other neuters your ability to do damage. Holy shit wow!

Solution: If you solve point 4 then the HP debuff is whatever. There should be a quest that allows you to neutralize the tchort debuff beyond the stupid "find my knife" quest, which only slightly mitigates it.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Could we perhaps start listing the specific reasons why we think Deep Caverns is bad, rather than just doing a drive-by shitting?

I mean I think hellbovine kind of nails it. The fights don't feel dangerous. And honestly with my build, unless expose weakness was on a cooldown, they didn't feel particularly long either. There was just a lot of needless, not dangerous fights and not enough mortality.

And part of that is the abilities the monsters have. Monsters - other than a huge group of psi beetles - never feel dangerous after a certain point in the game. And that remains true in DC - but that's also pretty much all you're going to fight in DC (especially if you're friendly with the Faceless).

BTW - did they fix the bug yet where persuading the Faceless mindreader doesn't trigger as friendly? Or is that not a bug? epeli do you know?

Anyway - that being said, there was a lot of good in DC, but the amount of trash fighting kind of drowned it out. I think that

Spoiler

Arke Power Plant, the residential area, and the mutagen puzzle, especially, but also the area with the cryo tubes

Were all very good. Great even, and in line with the rest of the game, but

Spoiler

the deep worms, the mushroom forest, the long cooldown on the eye of tchort, and even a bit of the scavenger hunt aspect [although I think this can be salvaged by making the manual a) useful and b) maybe provide some tips as to where the items needed are], and the respawning and undangerous creatures

detract from those things that are very good.

Edit:

Spoiler

I do think the criticisms of having to "constantly backtrack to Arke" are overblown. If you do it right - and admittedly there is no way to know for sure if you are, but still - you only have to go twice. But even then - the respawning burrowers are what makes this an issue, not the fact that you have to go to Arke a few times.

 

[Gord]

you have to help foundry if buzzer dies

So, I've continued with the Arena and gained the trust of one of the Oligarchs. AFAIK this should trigger the quest that would lead to Cornell. Yet it doesn't.
So I guess I'll try your suggestion and go to Foundry now - although I haven't received any hint at all that the Faceless quest is connected to Foundry.
This special brach of the MQ seems really badly done. How the fuck am I supposed to find out?