Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Lhynn]

I like that evasion and dodge are separate, i just dislike the cap to its effectiveness.

 

[Excidium II]

I just don't see the point of those skills at all. If my knife dude had invested in electronics and traps instead he'd be crazy stronger and also more suvivable.

You get occasionally one-shot by sneaky snipers and xbowmen even with max evasion anyway. Just reload.

 

[Lhynn]

So just get traps and electronics as well, another layer of defense. Also evasion and dodge should mitigate some damage, after all its about as much about getting out of the way as it is about trying not to get shot in the face.

 

[Excidium II]

So just get traps and electronics as well, another layer of defense. Also evasion and dodge should mitigate some damage, after all its about as much about getting out of the way as it is about trying not to get shot in the face.

Can't have that many skill points. Besides, those dodge/evasion skillpoints are better anywhere else, it was just an example.

And I don't know. Evasion just ceases being relevant the moment you get tactical vest and an energy shield. Dodge at least is still useful if you are caught offguard by those crippling strike faggots. Only marginally anyway.

 

[ST'Ranger]

You're being far too general. The utility of dodge/evasion as well as other defensive-focused skills depends entirely on your character.

 

[Excidium II]

Dodge (beyond 40)/Evasion is just bad skill point investment for any character.

If your character can't do stealth alpha strike and decide fight in two turns then he wears heavy armor.

 

[Lhynn]

Dodge (beyond 40)/Evasion is just bad skill point investment for any character.

If your character can't do stealth alpha strike and decide fight in two turns then he wears heavy armor.

Nonsense, i tanked everything fine with my leather armor unarmed god murderer.

 

[Excidium II]

The power of tactical vests and shield. And infused leathers I guess.

 

[ST'Ranger]

Well there we have it everyone. We've successfully mapped all two types of characters that can exist in Underrail. It only took us a mere 231 pages.



I love the idea that dodge/evasion is useless because you can reload. Wisdom of the Codex.

 

[Excidium II]

Show me the build where dodge and evasion are actually worthwhile investment of skill points.

 

[ST'Ranger]

The issue here is not that such builds don't exist (they're not even unicorns or special cases) but that your definition of worthwhile includes as a premise "doesn't use Dodge/Evasion".

Any character that uses Stealth (which is penalized by armor penalty) as a primary character feature is naturally going to be in a position at character creation to take advantage of Dodge/Evasion. High Agility means that Dodge/Evasion are cheap - you get a lot out of them for far less investment. Even if you don't go all-in and just drop a few points in one or both every level, it can be a huge difference in effective HP.

Your advocating that you can replace defensive skills with e.g. a shield presupposes that your character has high Electronics - which is obviously not a requirement. The whole crux of your argument is based on such unspoken presuppositions.

 

[damager]

Underrail lacks cool mid to endgame stuff not balance.

It felt like I was fighting the same enemies, with the same tactics, doing the same quests far too long. I would like a sequel with character import, bringing your character and the story to a whole new level in the process. Kinda BG style.

Send me to the overworld with some biochemical suit, make me control enemies with psi abilities, give me drugs that will morph me into a giant wererathound on the expense of some braincells. Give me a real sequel and not more of the same.

 

[Excidium II]

Your advocating that you can replace defensive skills with e.g. a shield presupposes that your character has high Electronics - which is obviously not a requirement. The whole crux of your argument is based on such unspoken presuppositions.

The point is that electronics, for example, is a better use of skill points.

it can be a huge difference in effective HP.

Can it really? At the end of the day it's still RNG, except for nade damage reduction, which shields are even better against.

I played a stealth character with 7 agility and high dodge/evasion + nimble, and he would have been stronger with 40 dodge and 0 evasion. Could even drop nimble too and get a more useful feat (probably quick tinkering). 10~15% Penalty to stealth is not an issue with how much gear increases it.

 

[ST'Ranger]

Your advocating that you can replace defensive skills with e.g. a shield presupposes that your character has high Electronics - which is obviously not a requirement. The whole crux of your argument is based on such unspoken presuppositions.

The point is that electronics, for example, is a better use of skill points.

it can be a huge difference in effective HP.

Can it really? At the end of the day it's still RNG, except for nade damage reduction, which shields are even better against.

I played a stealth character with 7 agility and high dodge/evasion + nimble, and he would have been stronger with 40 dodge and 0 evasion. Could even drop nimble too. 10~15% Penalty to stealth is not an issue with how much gear increases it.

Have you set aside a moment or two and done the math? Dodge/Evasion can be extremely strong in terms of not only increasing effective HP but guarding your actual hitpoints better than just a shield. A character with high Electronics skill can make a godlike shield - no argument there. But a character with only e.g. Evasion can buy an inferior shield (with 0 Electronics skill) and the Evasion increases the effectiveness not only of the HP bar but also of the shield's HP. Further, hits that strike a shield will often bleed some of the damage through regardless. This is especially of note on characters that dump CON in order to boost other attributes - and especially on psi users. Hits that are evaded not only preserve the HP of the shield but also obviously do not include bleed damage.

And of course you can have both high Electronics and Dodge/Evasion - only at the cost of something else. It depends on how much you value defense and attrition on your specific character. That is the nature of the complicated web of opportunity costs that is the character system.

It's true that "at the end of the day it's still RNG" but you could make the same argument about every attack and defense method in the entire game. The truth is that probabilities track very accurately, especially in the long run. Otherwise, you could argue that there's no point playing a non-psi user because e.g. you might just miss your attacks all the time or something equally ridiculous.

As far as characters whose only defense is the initiative advantage provided by Stealth, I've tried two of those since release and wasn't happy with either of them. I'm not saying they're unworkable, just that playing them in Hard mode required a playstyle I found tedious at the time. I plan to go back to the drawing board and beat the game with one at some point and then I could make a more worthy comment on the issue.

 

[Excidium II]

Well I sure as hell am not going to put points in them anymore. Gonna start a new char tomorrow and see how it goes.

 

[Snufkin]

Excidium II, if you follow Nerd commando guides on youtube you will see he does not pump evasion/dodge. I think this is huge mistake. There is no reason to go heavy armor at this moment. Unless you play sledgehammer build, in that case you want to dump dodge, but still max evasion and aim for armor with around 50% penality for juggernaut and stealth. As for stealth, crossbow / knife / sniper needs it to be maxed. Thats 30% of all builds curently that are worth playing. Other chars can get away with low/medium stealth investment, thanks to equipment it still will do the job in sneaky quests and allows you to position and start combat on your own terms.

At the time when you make your first supersteel metal armor with high quality sheets, you will be also able to create infused siphoner leather armor/tabi boots that will make evasion/dodge skyrocket into huge number. And at begining of the game metal armors are plain bad. Kills your movement and most dangerous enemies at this points are enemies with guns, which you can beat using tactical vest.

Btw, with proper equipment and Evasive Maneuvers you can get evasion to 500+ but only for one turn. So after first round you pop Evasive Maneuvers which will last for next round and hopeful there will be no third round since everything will be dead by now.

 

[Dwarvophile]

This game is great fun. And good art ! Not sure about the story but we'll see, atm I'm just enjoying exploring and all.

What feat would you advise between opportunist (I do use traps) vs expertise vs gunslinger vs hit & run vs anything else that I didn't percieve and would be better than those ? I have a gunner with good infiltration skills and already have aimed shot, sure step and wasted a feat with marksman when I thought I would go crossbow with stealth. I still don't know if I go with guns or as a sniper. I'm not a min-maxer, I'll choose eventually. I just shouldn't let ennemies approach too close since my CON & STR are low.

 

[damager]

If you wanna play pistolero take expertise. It is a must have for that spec.

With pistole you want max dex and per. With sniper/AR you only want per and some str. So you shouldn't make this decission mid game.

 

[Snufkin]

Dwarvophile Underrail is game where min maxing is good idea. That being said aimed shot, quick tinkering, marksman, deadly snares, snipe and opportunist works very well on crossbow build.Way things are now, crossbow build is stronger then gunslinger (pistols), thanks to special bolts.

 

[Excidium II]

Excidium II, if you follow Nerd commando guides on youtube you will see he does not pump evasion/dodge. I think this is huge mistake. There is no reason to go heavy armor at this moment. Unless you play sledgehammer build, in that case you want to dump dodge, but still max evasion and aim for armor with around 50% penality for juggernaut and stealth. As for stealth, crossbow / knife / sniper needs it to be maxed. Thats 30% of all builds curently that are worth playing. Other chars can get away with low/medium stealth investment, thanks to equipment it still will do the job in sneaky quests and allows you to position and start combat on your own terms.

At the time when you make your first supersteel metal armor with high quality sheets, you will be also able to create infused siphoner leather armor/tabi boots that will make evasion/dodge skyrocket into huge number. And at begining of the game metal armors are plain bad. Kills your movement and most dangerous enemies at this points are enemies with guns, which you can beat using tactical vest.

Btw, with proper equipment and Evasive Maneuvers you can get evasion to 500+ but only for one turn. So after first round you pop Evasive Maneuvers which will last for next round and hopeful there will be no third round since everything will be dead by now.

But you don't need heavy armor. That's my point. Light (<=25%) can survive purely by good openers, disablers and good positioning thanks to your mobility and utility.

There's a guy playing the game ironman on hard with classic xp with no dodge/evasion and light armor to prove the point.

Also you seem to forget there's an upper bound cap on avoidance of 60%.

 

[damager]

Getting an early high quality shield through electronics is way more effective and reliable anyway as you already stated. And being good at electronics brings a lot of other perks as well.

Edit: Also it is possible to have a reliant throw and trap skill, tailoring, mechanics and electronics high enough for endgame mats, lock picking and hacking for endgame doors and computers, maximum knife damage, max stealth,40 dodge AND maximum evasion skill. So just about everything you could possibly need. Evasion would be just always my least priority.

 

[Snufkin]

After nerf of taste of blood knifes are not worth it now in my opinion. With kukri now you get 9 attacks with adrenaline and blitz, or 7 without. Unarmed can get 14 with adrenaline alone, and The Claw is better then kukri.

 

[Excidium II]

After nerf of taste of blood knifes are not worth it now in my opinion. With kukri now you get 9 attacks with adrenaline and blitz, or 7 without. Unarmed can get 14 with adrenaline alone, and The Claw is better then kukri.

I think it's still decent mainly because Dexterity is an awesome stat. But yeah, I'd rather go fists now.

 

[Snufkin]

With bare hands you reach 17 attacks with adrenaline with just 12 dex with tabis and lightning punches. So rest points can go into str that fuels corporal projection feat and force emission.

 

[damager]

Never used taste for blood or eviscerate. Might be true that fists are stronger, but it doesn't really matter because combat encounters were already piss easy from mid-game onward. I doubt it anyway, as even a self found electro-shock tungsten steel knife from Core City is way better than Kukri. Not to speak of a crafted one. If anything wouldn't the claw, that is reliant on bleeing wounds, take a hit from the nerf of taste for blood more than Kukri which is about crit?