Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[jackofshadows]

I don't get the obsession with 30 lvl in the first place. 26 is the most important milestone. That said, in my previous run (Oddity) I went into DC either 29 or 28.7lvl, something like that.

 

[Savecummer]

In the end you lost a total of 50 XP right before taking the elevator to DC - which, assuming an otherwise thorough exploration, means you are at late lvl 28 at worst, early 29 at best. Not even a whole level behind the curve and going to hit 30 in the middle of DC at worst. I don't really see the supposed issue, especially considering just how many skill points you saved. Not a bad deal, honestly.

The thing is, you haven't pointed out any real issue with Classic, either, other than it allows players to fairly easily reach level 11-12 before Depot A—and I agree that those levels are significant, but the issue is very easily solved, since pre-Depot A is tightly hemmed in. Classic technically permits idiots to grind XP, but that's not a genuine issue, because we need not design games around the bad behavior of idiots. They can also save-scum, play on Easy, use a hex editor to give themselves a bunch of free stuff, etc.

Conceptually, Oddity does have a certain feel to it. That can't be denied. You will be progressing in part by rummaging through shelves, trash cans, boxes, and pockets, and some people actually don't like to check every point of interest. You will, in short, have to actively seek out these random curiosities and bits of rubbish. Furthermore, it is at least marginally easier to find more of them if you have subterfuge skills. I've played the game that way before, I didn't dislike it, and it was interesting, but I'm not sure I want to do it again.

I mean, for fuck's sake, you literally have to farm cave hoppers to get one of the first oddities. Don't try to pretend that there's any other legitimate reason to farm them. That (alongside stuff like taking a certain level of Pickpocket just for oddities and drinks, which is clear-cut meta-gaming based on extensive foreknowledge) is what I'm referring to when I say I have meta-gaming concerns with the Oddity system. Expedition made the cave hopper oddity accessible in another way, but only after Depot A.

Also, a few oddities I didn't mention are extremely well hidden, so despite the fact that they're technically accessible, it's likely a couple will be missed. Which is fine, I suppose. You forgot to check a corner of a hidden vent, so you'll be waiting longer to get good at shooting things.

now noa u were spitting about stealth for oddities something somethng....

"B-BUT BRAINE YOU ONLY NEED 50/60/70 PIGGPOGGET!!! "

 

[Blaine]

I don't get the obsession with 30 lvl in the first place. 26 is the most important milestone. That said, in my previous run (Oddity) I went into DC either 29 or 28.7lvl, something like that.

Agreed, I'd roll through DC at level 26. Which, again, is why I question the Oddity elitism. Two levels make a big difference at Depot A, but not so much later on.

Speaking of which, I'm doing Expedition quite late this time around, and having the time of my life with the native assaults. I've got crawler caltrops carpeting the areas directly in front of the ships, regular caltrops the rest of the way up the lanes, explosive mines as tightly as I can pack them without overlapping, two solid lines of bear traps interspersed with acid blob traps shortly before the natives would reach the aprons up to the Aegis positions, two or three gas grenades doing their thing—and with Grenadier and Spec Ops the grenades barely stop flying. When they do, I hose the snakeys down with suppressive fire with acid bullets, incendiary rounds, fucking acid blobs, you name it. With my infused hopper gear, I can zoom back and forth from the south to the east position at will.

It's like the Fourth of July out there combined with a Nickelodeon sliming from Double Dare. I even have Sure Step, so I can go right over my own caltrops and puddles with ease. Of course, I also try to mow down at least one of their longboat crews as I zoom toward the beach.

But good fucking night, that "BEEDLE-EEDLE-EEDLE! Styg's scripts have declared it's time for you to go deal with another native assault!" still pisses me off. I guess it's supposed to, though, to be fair. To top it all off I'm going to be going pirate soon, so I might as well just flatten the Aegis camp rather than defending it.

 

[jackofshadows]

That "BEEDLE-EEDLE-EEDLE" sure able to kick out of stealth in the worst time.

 

[Sheepherder]

monster oddities do suck indeed. One can complete beast questline and not have full set of blades for example

but then you will reach max lvl anyway

on Dom? Never happened. I always collect the bladeling remains after the beast fight for adrenaline glands and get the full set of oddities.
only creature oddities I struggle with are siphoner ones. but not much, they just take a bit longer to get.

Biggest downside of oddity system? Completing Gauntlet gives oddity XP, so I wanna do it, but it's the Gauntlet, so I don't do it, and it bugs me.

 

[Blaine]

on Dom? Never happened. I always collect the bladeling remains after the beast fight for adrenaline glands and get the full set of oddities.

Yeah, because there are like four dozen of them on Dominating in seven waves. I'm fine with Hard's mere two dozen-odd. It's a mine, not a clown car.

That, of course, is the biggest issue with balancing Classic: Killing more shit on higher difficulties = obtaining more XP. On the other side of that coin, although it's wholly inclined to stop awarding players XP for killing more of the same general enemy type, you also shouldn't force them to slog through large quantities of those now low-value mobs unless you have a very good reason. Kill The Beast qualifies as a very good reason, mind you. The wave assault is the climax of the quest line, and that climax is well conceived and presented.

Since Dominating throws substantially more enemies at the player, that means more XP. Though to be fair, if someone's playing Dominating in the first place, one can hardly criticize them for playing Classic mode.

Biggest downside of oddity system? Completing Gauntlet gives oddity XP, so I wanna do it, but it's the Gauntlet, so I don't do it, and it bugs me.

Is Gauntlet generally unpopular, I wonder? I always avoid it either until late, or entirely, unlike pretty much all of the rest of the content in the game.

 

[CHEMS]

i don't kill hoppers for the oddity, i kill them because i hate them

 

[Fluent]

i just wanted to say that i love this thread, u guys really inspired me to start underrail myself. i'm going for a Hard run with a character that probably isn't that great but i'm working on him. i just cleared the newton quest with some shifty maneuvers and haven't loaded since (it's been maybe 5 days.) definitely going to play more, it is simply an all-time great rpg. so deep, so lush. really good stuff.

 

[Blaine]

Thank God! I'll no longer have to suffer through any native assaults. Hosanna in the highest!

It turns out that despite being located in an uncontrolled grid square, ambushing a patrol of waterborne Sec-Troopers in order to yoink an Aegis Patroller still turns the Expedition hostile. I expected that. They do have radios, after all. God damn, they're loot piñatas, too! Should have gone Grim Jetter playthroughs ago.

But the best thing of all is the real ultimate power of JHP ammunition when used by an Expertise build against jet skiers:

Spare the ski but zone the S-T,
We don't leave debris afloat on th' sea!

Not when scree's buyin' and I'm the payee,
And it's back to the Bay in time for high tea!

HAR HA HAR HA HARRRR! Screw you, Briggs! I FUCKED YAHOTA!

i don't kill hoppers for the oddity, i kill them because i hate them

Allow me to refer you to post #1 in this thread:

 

[Blaine]

Speaking of hoppers and their oddity:

As dictated by the relevant trope, the tiny, pathetic little critters who dart furtively from their holes to munch nervously on mushrooms whilst being either preyed upon or disdained and ignored by all should have a glorious ultimate form in the final version.

 

[Ghulgothas]

As dictated by the relevant trope, the tiny, pathetic little critters who dart furtively from their holes to munch nervously on mushrooms whilst being either preyed upon or disdained and ignored by all should have a glorious ultimate form in the final version.

Three hoppers in a stealthy black trench coat. They were the ones to infiltrate the Faceless Citadel and steal the Cube, setting the plot in motion. Truly the greatest agent Oculus ever had...

 

[Mortmal]

i just wanted to say that i love this thread, u guys really inspired me to start underrail myself. i'm going for a Hard run with a character that probably isn't that great but i'm working on him. i just cleared the newton quest with some shifty maneuvers and haven't loaded since (it's been maybe 5 days.) definitely going to play more, it is simply an all-time great rpg. so deep, so lush. really good stuff.

Yes, its a classic now, i am pretty sure even in 20 years some guys will still play it for the first time, a pixel art game like it will never age and work on anything . Also, its much more than just combat, i hardly can remember a better plot, better npcs and something more atmospheric than the expedition. More memorable npc than the ferryman ? you have to dig into planescape torment for that . Expedition was something new and surprising even for an old fart like me who play every rpgs. There's a significant raise in quality compare to the base game in my opinion, hope he keeps on this way . When i finished it, i was a bit sad...

You dont have to make a killing machine like everyone here by the way , i suggest getting the utility skills , hacking , lockipicking, above all lot of crafting to not miss content the first time.

 

[Fluent]

Yes, its a classic now, i am pretty sure even in 20 years some guys will still play it for the first time, a pixel art game like it will never age and work on anything . Also, its much more than just combat, i hardly can remember a better plot, better npcs and something more atmospheric than the expedition. More memorable npc than the ferryman ? you have to dig into planescape torment for that . Expedition was something new and surprising even for an old fart like me who play every rpgs. There's a significant raise in quality compare to the base game in my opinion, hope he keeps on this way . When i finished it, i was a bit sad...

You dont have to make a killing machine like everyone here by the way , i suggest getting the utility skills , hacking , lockipicking, above all lot of crafting to not miss content the first time.

thanks for taking the time to respond to me, Mortmal. i feel it will also go down in history as something that people will play in 20 years and fall in love with. it's just *that* good. i was instantly hooked just by the sheer atmosphere, depth, and interesting mechanics everywhere. it really grabbed me immediately, and i couldn't be happier playing it. i am going for utility skills in this run. lockpicking, hacking, traps as well. no stealth but Guns and i want to craft some molotovs with chemistry and tailoring, lol. But yeah, just having a blast so far and really thankful for this thread especially which got me super interested in the game.

 

[CHEMS]

Should have gone Grim Jetter playthroughs ago.

Too bad you need high persuasion in order to do the raiding quests alone. That stupid Razor always gets himself killed thinking is a good idea to attack a plasma turret with a fucking knife

 

[Blaine]

Too bad you need high persuasion in order to do the raiding quests alone. That stupid Razor always gets himself killed thinking is a good idea to attack a plasma turret with a fucking knife

NPCs behaving suicidally during escort missions (despite their theme, what you've described are essentially escort missions) is a tradition almost as old as the 1 and the 0.

Well, the 1 and the 0 might date back to ancient and even prehistoric times—and the distinction between something and nothing is perhaps a fundamental underlying principle of the universe—but that's a matter of anthropological, philosophical, and cosmological debate.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

Since Dominating throws substantially more enemies at the player, that means more XP. Though to be fair, if someone's playing Dominating in the first place, one can hardly criticize them for playing Classic mode.

Dominating/classic is weird. If you're playing dominating you presumably want the game to be hard. Why would you play the mode that overlevels you so the game is easier than it's meant to be if you want it to be hard? Makes no sense.

 

[CHEMS]

Since Dominating throws substantially more enemies at the player, that means more XP. Though to be fair, if someone's playing Dominating in the first place, one can hardly criticize them for playing Classic mode.

Dominating/classic is weird. If you're playing dominating you presumably want the game to be hard. Why would you play the mode that overlevels you so the game is easier than it's meant to be if you want it to be hard? Makes no sense.

Because it's not uncommon to find enemies with 2000 health?

 

[Blaine]

If you're playing dominating you presumably want the game to be hard.

No, that's Hard.

If you're playing Dominating, you want the game to be DOMINATING!

 

[Spark Mandriller]

Because it's not uncommon to find enemies with 2000 health?

It's still pretty uncommon. Though yeah, I'm doing arena on a dominating character right now and the gladiators are all pretty scary. At least they're not fear immune so I can abuse that. Styg really needs to give Carnifex at least fear immunity. Unless he already did and I just didn't hear about it, in which case wow am I in for a surprise before long.

 

[Blaine]

Spark Mandriller

In the same way that certain persons believe I'm over-exaggerating the quirks of the Oddity system, I believe that certain persons are over-exaggerating the effects of being slightly over-leveled—to the point of melodrama. There is an effect, and it's strongest at Depot A, but it's far less than the difference between Dom and Hard or Hard and Normal.

I see your point, but here's mine: The great majority of people who could complete Depot A on Dominating/Classic could also complete it on Dominating/Oddity, and Depot A is your best case for claiming that two levels make the game, like, SO much easier. Furthermore, Oddity purists don't know how much difference those levels make from personal experience (heh).

As for me, I've never desired that the game be an unfair endurance test full of bullet sponges and nasty surprises absent from the base game design, requiring optimized character builds and extensive meta-gaming to complete with any comfort. It's enough for me that it be challenging, so that I can't bumble around like a stupid asshole and get away with it or feel that enemies are pushovers. That (and the fact that my builds are never optimized, by choice) is why I stick with Hard. I also tend to do a single playthrough and then drop the game for a year or two, so that I lose my in-depth knowledge of the game in the meantime (which is partly the point).

My last playthrough was actually on Normal, and before too long, the game began to feel far too easy, even with a seriously unoptimized build (which is why I chose Normal). That is when I knew I had to upgrade to Hard permanently. "Feels too easy" is my metric, and Hard feels right, for now.

 

[CHEMS]

Because it's not uncommon to find enemies with 2000 health?

It's still pretty uncommon. Though yeah, I'm doing arena on a dominating character right now and the gladiators are all pretty scary. At least they're not fear immune so I can abuse that. Styg really needs to give Carnifex at least fear immunity. Unless he already did and I just didn't hear about it, in which case wow am I in for a surprise before long.

To be fair, i don't think bullet spongy enemies is a nice experience. I'd rather dominating had the enemies with better skills, gear and in greater numbers. And allow me to bitch again about the merchant nerf that is BULLSHIT

 

[Spark Mandriller]

In the same way that certain persons believe I'm over-exaggerating the quirks of the Oddity system, I believe that certain persons are over-exaggerating the effects of being slightly over-leveled—to the point of melodrama.

Yeah, you're probably right. Especially since Expedition ruins the level curve anyway. The only way to not get super overlevelled is to ignore the expansion content, and nobody wants to do that.

To be fair, i don't think bullet spongy enemies is a nice experience. I'd rather dominating had the enemies with better skills, gear and in greater numbers. And allow me to bitch again about the merchant nerf that is BULLSHIT

HP boost is kinda over the top I think. Every enemy on dominating gets a small boost which is fine, but bosses having thousands is crazy. It just leads to exploiting bear traps or molotov fear or other stuff like that to keep them unable to fight back while you shoot at them for several turns. They're still not a threat, they just take forever.

 

[Reid]

I actually like the harsher economy on dominating, which for me is still too generous but I understand it's difficult to balance such a thing in a game like Underrail. I think the problem with the bosses is that single enemies in this game are rarely an issue in general, with all the various ways you can stun and disable them, and turn 1 buffs you can apply to yourself, so it doesn't really matter how much HP you give them.

On my first dominating playthrough the absolute hardest part was funnily enough the fight against the gang near Foundry that's holding the guy who has info about the cube hostage. It's a boss HP situation combined with additional enemies, brutal for a lower level character. I had to really abuse gas grenades, bear traps and molotovs, which exposed a funny AI exploit where they were cautious about entering the death zone as I hid around the corner, but as soon as I managed to end combat, they all just wandered into it carelessly and died.

 

[lukaszek]

monster oddities do suck indeed. One can complete beast questline and not have full set of blades for example

but then you will reach max lvl anyway

on Dom? Never happened. I always collect the bladeling remains after the beast fight for adrenaline glands and get the full set of oddities.
only creature oddities I struggle with are siphoner ones. but not much, they just take a bit longer to get.

on my dom run there were 4 blades in total after beast fight. I remember as I found it ridiculously low. On one of my hard playthroughs, after fighting beast I had to go back to mines with a jackhammer to try find missing blade.

Siphoners are bad, greater siphoners even worse. I save scum their spawn and feel no shame in that. Some creatures are easier than others, regardless of how rare their encounters are. Death stalker eyes I usually get quickly. Registry plates from bots I often struggle(kill every bot before turning drill parts in and still not a single plate? cmon). Lunatic poetry really varies on my playthroughs. I think I missed bison horn even after killing all the bisons?
Then there is oddity like glowing larvae from locust hive that I never saw

So yeah, when I mean that they suck I mean commiting genocide on given species and still missing that oddity set.

 

[Tigranes]

The way I see it is, on any given run, you're going to miss some of those oddities despite killing several of the enemies, and that's fine - you're still perfectly fine on Dom for Depot A. After that, well, you can either choose to run around and do stuff on level ~10, or hoover up the oddities in various towns to get to 12/13, depending on your build and whether you'd like some new toys to play with. Once you're metagaming multiple dom runs you're really setting your own challenge level anyway.

I don't think a seasoned Dom player will ever feel vastly underleveled due to Oddity - but I know some players roll builds where their signature moves only come into play in like level 20, I guess.