Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Trashos]

Gloves:

(Btw, here you definitely want Nimble for Lightning Punches.)

Take DEX on levelups except for lvl20. You only need to reach 17 for 4ap attacks. The lvl20 point is "free" (but do take DEX at lvl24 and DEX+2 at lvl26).

Critical Power at lvl14 no matter what. Combo can wait.

For taste4blood, see my comments on Knives. Here it is a bit better due to The Claw, but if you want to utilize that, maybe take it earlier.

You don't like Stasis, do you?

Another option is to drop Blitz, reduce Agility to 7 (for Fancy Footwork), and take CON 9 for Survival Insticts. You will be attacking 22 times/round eventually, and plus 30% crit chance means ~7 more crits/round. Now, I am not always in the mood for SI because it is so weak (and many random encounters will kill you), so I understand either way.

At Ag 7 you can still reach Ag 10 for jumping around at Black Sea through All In or White Dude or hopper gear + food.

 

[Sheepherder]

Thanks folks. Playing around with it, would like input on:

(1) Glove Boy
https://underrail.info/build/?FAMPCgMDAwUAMgBuKABuADcAAAAAAAAAAG4ANwAASyQ5MSsgBhITRwdLTjzfvw

STR vs DEX? My memory is that you'd either go TK Punch + Corporeal Projection + Unarmed STR bonus for the big hits, OR you go Crit based Lightning Punches many-hits mode. This draft is geared to DEX, but I also don't know what to do with the leftover ability points - I guess it could bump up anything but not sure of a clear purpose.


(2) Knife Boy, largely based on Trashos + Sheepherder's old build IIRC
https://underrail.info/build/?FAMPCgMDBQYAMgBuKABuAB4AABkAAAAFAAAANwBuSzkxRAAGExJcS0cLPN-_

I would probably see which feats I really need when - Escape Artist & Brutality really need to get in there somehow but not sure what to drop. Nimble isn't strictly necessary, is it?

1. If gloves go all in DEX, if Unarmed go enough DEX for 4 AP or 5 AP attacks and rest into STR. STR is really good for Unarmed because it is multiplicative here. So if it says you get 5% more damage, you really do get 5% more damage. With gloves STR bonus works like it does in all other melee weapons - additive with damage bonus from skill, so it's much much less noticeable.
Also, if you go gloves, drop PK. For gloves it's all about pneumatic punch + combo crits. Pneumatic punch procs on fourth strike, and it doesn't have to be the same target. Equip two pneumatic gloves - the game remembers the number of strikes you've made with one glove even if you switch to the other one. This way you can charge up pneumatic punches to sync as many as you can with combo procs.

Since you want high AGI, you'll have a harder time with Unarmed as it needs STR too. So Gloves would be better here.

2. Cut Throat is meh. Unless it has been changed recently, the attack will always be 25 AP. Even when your regular knife attacks reach 5 AP or 6 AP costs, it'll still be 25 AP. It's alright for midgame bosses tho I'd drop it tho. Yell is meh-ish here, armor tanks get more use out of it.

Oh and join the drones for nail bombs. Easiest way to rack up TfB stacks. No need for any other source of bleeds.

In both cases, get TM to 70 at least, for stasis.

 

[Trashos]

Cut Throat is meh. Unless it has been changed recently, the attack will always be 25 AP. Even when your regular knife attacks reach 5 AP or 6 AP costs, it'll still be 25 AP. It's alright for midgame bosses tho I'd drop it tho.

It is better than you are making it out to be.
- it BTFOs bosses (took care of Zaman, Rathound King and Balor for me),
- it destroys all humans in the Arena (OK, maybe we can count them too for bosses),
- it is great against hunchback mutants,
- in any case against big groups you can throw a flashbang, tase whoever resists, cut the throat of whoever has the most HP, and then you have another 2 rounds (3 incl. the stasis round) to kill whatever is left. This is not as strong later when your attacks cost 5 AP, but that's lvl26.
- Against 2 enemies, you cut one throat, you tase the other, and they are toast. In this respect it is like Dirty Kick, only better and more fun.
- It synergizes with Cheap Shots incapacitation,
- it produces knife-unique gameplay.

So while you are correct that it loses power in the late game due to the AP cost, it does its job. But the most important thing for me is that it produces knife-unique gameplay. You are playing knives, you might as well play them like knives. When in Rome, go see the Pope!

 

[Sheepherder]

It's not bad, I used it right after it was buffed, but imo it's still not worth a feat point. Especially if he builds his knifer with dodge/evasion, as he'll be a bit strapped for feats. Also, bad synergy with FF as it's a single attack.
I do agree on the knife-unique gameplay point, it's exactly the reason I got it as well. But from the point of killing power, it's a very temporary feat. Plus waaay late in the game, using it is detrimental due to AP economy. At least it was for me, but I played a crit monkey with Fight Response.

 

[Trashos]

STR is really good for Unarmed because it is multiplicative here. So if it says you get 5% more damage, you really do get 5% more damage. With gloves STR bonus works like it does in all other melee weapons - additive with damage bonus from skill, so it's much much less noticeable.

Hmmm.... interesting. I was toying with idea to do a glove build with STR instead of SI for once. So with gloves the 5% bonus is 5% of what? Weapon base damage?

 

[Knifegaf]

Cut-throat is a hard pass imo. Alright feat early on but later it’s pretty bad. Knives are front loaded hard on feats so I’m not a fan of taking a feat that will only help in the beginning and takes up a feat slot for a feat that can help all game.

 

[Sheepherder]

STR is really good for Unarmed because it is multiplicative here. So if it says you get 5% more damage, you really do get 5% more damage. With gloves STR bonus works like it does in all other melee weapons - additive with damage bonus from skill, so it's much much less noticeable.

Hmmm.... interesting. I was toying with idea to do a glove build with STR instead of SI for once. So with gloves the 5% bonus is 5% of what? Weapon base damage?

For example: you have 100 effective Melee and 10 STR. You gloves deal 10-20 damage. The 100 Melee gets you a 1.7 damage modifier. 10 STR is +0.25 damage bonus. This bonus is added to the 1.7 and you get 1.95. This makes your gloves deal 19-39 damage.
Now with unarmed - the 1.7 bonus is first applied to 10-20 damage. You deal 17-34 damage before STR bonus. Now since STR is multiplicative with Unarmed, it provides 1.25 multiplier and your final damage is 21-42.

 

[Trashos]

Great explanation, thanks! I have never taken STR with melee before, and I didn't realize how it is implemented.

I still want to try Heavy Punch (and see how it combines with pneumatic strike and combo) and Bone Breaker, so I need at least STR7 to do that. But now I feel less motivated to go higher than that. I have 3 points left, so I can invest them in STR or AG. Decisions, decisions...

 

[Tigranes]

1. If gloves go all in DEX, if Unarmed go enough DEX for 4 AP or 5 AP attacks and rest into STR. STR is really good for Unarmed because it is multiplicative here. So if it says you get 5% more damage, you really do get 5% more damage. With gloves STR bonus works like it does in all other melee weapons - additive with damage bonus from skill, so it's much much less noticeable.
Also, if you go gloves, drop PK. For gloves it's all about pneumatic punch + combo crits. Pneumatic punch procs on fourth strike, and it doesn't have to be the same target. Equip two pneumatic gloves - the game remembers the number of strikes you've made with one glove even if you switch to the other one. This way you can charge up pneumatic punches to sync as many as you can with combo procs.

Since you want high AGI, you'll have a harder time with Unarmed as it needs STR too. So Gloves would be better here.

2. Cut Throat is meh. Unless it has been changed recently, the attack will always be 25 AP. Even when your regular knife attacks reach 5 AP or 6 AP costs, it'll still be 25 AP. It's alright for midgame bosses tho I'd drop it tho. Yell is meh-ish here, armor tanks get more use out of it.

Oh and join the drones for nail bombs. Easiest way to rack up TfB stacks. No need for any other source of bleeds.

In both cases, get TM to 70 at least, for stasis.

Thanks everyone, helps me make some key choices.

It looks like the go-tos would be (1) Dex Gloves w/ Pneumatic Combo vs. (2) Dex Knife w/ Ripper Crit Power Taste for Blood Brutality and possibly Cut-throat.

Now I remember, though - I've always gone dex Gloves in the past and I always wish I could play with POWAH FIST. I wonder if I can run the Dex Glove build but rack up STR to 6, or even 7, for Bone Breaker as well. So 7/10/9/3/3/3/5. Probably not optimal but could be fun.

Does Heavy Punch reliably combine with pneumatic combo?

 

[Trashos]

7/10/9/3/3/3/5

That is exactly like the one I am preparing myself. I will take the final AG point at lvl20. (I am torn between this distribution and 9/10/7/3/3/3/5, but in light of recent information I will probably go with the former.)
Can't help with Heavy Punch, I have yet to try it. It HAD BETTER combine, otherwise it doesn't make much sense as a feat.

 

[ItsChon]

Thanks everyone, helps me make some key choices.

It looks like the go-tos would be (1) Dex Gloves w/ Pneumatic Combo vs. (2) Dex Knife w/ Ripper Crit Power Taste for Blood Brutality and possibly Cut-throat.

Now I remember, though - I've always gone dex Gloves in the past and I always wish I could play with POWAH FIST. I wonder if I can run the Dex Glove build but rack up STR to 6, or even 7, for Bone Breaker as well. So 7/10/9/3/3/3/5. Probably not optimal but could be fun.

Does Heavy Punch reliably combine with pneumatic combo?

It can be used pretty reliably. Just punch the enemy with your glove three times and on the fourth punch use the Heavy Punch. For maximum damage, you'd want to use it with Combo. So punch the enemy with your pneumatic glove three times, switch to your bare hand/different glove and hit them twice. Your sixth strike should proc combo (200% Bonus damage at max spec), pneumatic (300% bonus damage q150) and an additional 180% damage from your heavy punch. I can't be fucked to do the math but this should be a pretty powerful combo that can one hit Tchort on Dominating if you're using a metal glove (add in the force emissions damage that is enhanced with corporeal projection and your strength). Would need minimum 10 Dex and lightning punches to pull this off (10 AP * 4 metal glove punch + 5 AP * 2 unarmed punch = 50 AP) and zero misses.

Powerfist is definitely viable but it's hard to tell how good it really is. It has a decent Electroshock emitter (Q140+) but a subpar pneumatic component (q50). The fact that both components are on the same item makes it harder to compare to regular metal gloves, since even though you can get a better electroshock glove and a much better (+100% extra damage) pneumatic glove, you can never get a glove that has both components, so it's a little more nuanced than just calculating outright damage on x component or y component as you need to factor in the utility and damage from a different component on the Powerfist. Then there is the fact that the only viable strength based metal glove build is a combo build, where you distribute your metal glove punches in between some unarmed punches, which basically makes it so your pneumatic component will only go off once per turn, instead of multiple times a turn like with leather gloves.

I think you can use the Powerfist pretty far into the later game, where you can then make two Metal Gloves both Q150 with blades. One glove with an electroshock emitter and a blade as you really won't be needing the pneumatic strike to kill most enemies since the combo and crits should be enough, and another glove with spikes and a pneumatic component to deal with inorganic enemies, enemies with large DT and DR, and to just use as a combo piece with Heavy Punch.

 

[Trashos]

Is it possible that neither Coral nor Booth are in the game? I thought I should have Booth, but he is not there. I have looked all around the sewers and he is nowhere.
I haven't met Coral either.

 

[Tigranes]

Alright, so I've gone with the Dex Glove But 7 Str setup, roughly like this:
https://underrail.info/build/?GAcPCgMDAwUAMgDCgigAwoIANwAAX18yADIAAABGAABfMRg5KyAGExIHSyRHTgPCh9-_

Dom/Oddity as usual. Slow start up until Depot A since all you got is basically regular knives. Silent Isle I just sneaked through and I'm not sure I could have done it otherwise.

Went over to grab Power Fist at level 12 and actually found it quite smooth to take on the Spiders - was able to sneak up to Greater Coils 1v1 and stunlock them, doing extra damage with an Energy Edge Knife.

Power Fist definitely looks like a big boost in this early/mid-stage, finding it smooth to take on a couple of deathclaws. Burrowers are a joke, I can walk up to a group including the giant burrower and just mow them down.

Next step is to see how Power Fist fares in Arena fights, Rathound King and other landmarks. I also forgot to pick up the Claw (????) so will see how they compare/combine. I imagine later on Power Fist at least will hit a ceiling.

 

[Trashos]

The Claw also hits a ceiling, but it is great against bleeding foes for all midgame. I pick it up first time I go to Core City. It is not pneumatic, but at least it is environmentally friendly! (I mean that it saves batteries.)

Good to know that the spiders are doable early.
Did you really take chemistry instead of biology?

 

[Ol' Willy]

Claw is awesome. With proc stun from Cheap Shots, Taste for Blood and Vile Weaponry it kicks ass. I clawed Balor once

 

[Trashos]

I too started a STR fist build, and it is very-very strong. Knives carried me in the early game, but once it opened up Claw+Power Fist cleared the midgame. I did not have an easy time getting the power fist (I depleted all my consumables at Hecate at lvl15), but it was worth the trouble. In the late game I will be using 2 crafted pneumatic gloves, but I am not there yet.

Heavy Punch is good enough for the combo strike. STR 5 allows you to use the Power Fist, anyway (STR 3 builds need food and regalia to use it effectively). I am not entirely sure that Broken Ribs is worth the further 2 points in STR, but I took it anyway. Maybe these points could have gone to INT for earlier crafting. It is debatable.

It is interesting to compare this STR Fist build with my usual SI Fist build. The SI build is also very strong with all the crits, but it has a much more difficult midgame due to lack of early Power Fist. You also touch it and it dies, so despite numbers and calculations STR Fist is much more convenient to play.

In general, both Knives and STR Fist builds are prime candidates for serious ironman playthroughs. They are both very strong.

PS. There used to be investigators at Evelyn's house at Foundry after you took her out, right? I think I remember this correctly. Now there aren't any investigators there, there are only investigators down in the vault. Weird change, I do not approve.

 

[Ghulgothas]

When it comes to Melee builds, which one's have you guys had the most fun with? I know I want my last character post-final update* to be one since it's the only combat style I've not yet beaten the game on Hard with. But I'm caught between either a nimble Unarmed/PK fighter, a Sword-Wielding Samurai clad in heavy metal armor, or a Witchdoctor with a spear and versed in Thought-Control.

 

[Trashos]

Ghulgothas, gloves or knives are my personal recommendations, but keep in mind that I only really like stealth builds with a lot of attacks (so that bad luck averages out). I have not played swords yet, but I expect them to be half fun and half infuriating.

 

[Tigranes]

I am up to level ~22 and entering Expeditions with Glove Boy. Power Fist actually remains top dog right now, though I'm going to look at various crafted pneumatic glove options (are there any leather options that aren't just ho hum samey?).

Sadly, any non-Energy build just devolves into boring tedium in Expeditions I think. Sure, you can do plasma grenades, expose weakness, energy edge, and so on, but the point is you just routine the one way to clear every mob and it's just a lot slower than acid/energy tuned builds.

Ghulgothas I like the many attack stealth glove/knives, but sword and spear are all OK, just not super maximal IMO. It comes down to what tickles your fancy - the many hits, the bleeding, the big crits, the blocking, etc.

 

[Trashos]

are there any leather options that aren't just ho hum samey?

Not to my knowledge.

Sadly, any non-Energy build just devolves into boring tedium in Expeditions I think. Sure, you can do plasma grenades, expose weakness, energy edge, and so on, but the point is you just routine the one way to clear every mob and it's just a lot slower than acid/energy tuned builds.

I am not in Expedition yet with the gloves build, but I found it more than fine with Knives. Shock knives against strongmen and most high DT enemies, energy knives (and door abuse) against psi crabs, throwing knives while on the jet ski. Of course, chemical pistols are king in the dlc, but otoh chemical pistols have troubles in the early game.

 

[Tigranes]

Trashos but that's what I mean - yes, it's not difficult, you just EMT, Plasma, shock/energy, and you're there. But it's just slower and more boring and I sit there wondering why I bother - there's not much tactics or anything of interest.

This time with max AGI I'll finally see if full jetski feats can actually make jetski melee good.

At least with builds that struggle very early game, there's some fun scrounging two pieces of string to figure some solution out.

 

[ItsChon]

When it comes to Melee builds, which one's have you guys had the most fun with? I know I want my last character post-final update* to be one since it's the only combat style I've not yet beaten the game on Hard with. But I'm caught between either a nimble Unarmed/PK fighter, a Sword-Wielding Samurai clad in heavy metal armor, or a Witchdoctor with a spear and versed in Thought-Control.

My favorite build was a Spartan Hoplite personally. I love how Spears work in the game, so anything with a spear I'd say.

 

[Trashos]

I love how Spears work in the game, so anything with a spear I'd say.

Do try to sell spears to us who are not seeing it. (I haven't played them)

But it's just slower and more boring and I sit there wondering why I bother - there's not much tactics or anything of interest.

What I meant is that knives play more or less "normally" in the dlc. Chem is just too good there.
Not sure what you are finding so tedious. There is some tedium, but it is more or less like in the rest of the game. Care to name places? High AG gives some options, and there are several cases where you can make enemies take each other out, which is very cool.

This time with max AGI I'll finally see if full jetski feats can actually make jetski melee good.

Only read if you want it spoiled.

Spoiler

Melee still sucks at sea. I had 56% chance to hit the fish with all feats and best suspension. So it still sucks, just not as bad as without them. Luckily, we have many attacks, and also throwing knives hit fine.

 

[lukaszek]

Do try to sell spears to us who are not seeing it. (I haven't played them)

sweep counts as hitting each enemy. Be it for fancy footwork, shocks, adjacent enemies being shocked and so on
I found it quite cool. Also they can support evasive playstyle, mage or tank with a shield

 

[Tigranes]

I love how Spears work in the game, so anything with a spear I'd say.

Do try to sell spears to us who are not seeing it. (I haven't played them)

But it's just slower and more boring and I sit there wondering why I bother - there's not much tactics or anything of interest.

What I meant is that knives play more or less "normally" in the dlc. Chem is just too good there.
Not sure what you are finding so tedious. There is some tedium, but it is more or less like in the rest of the game. Care to name places? High AG gives some options, and there are several cases where you can make enemies take each other out, which is very cool.

This time with max AGI I'll finally see if full jetski feats can actually make jetski melee good.

Only read if you want it spoiled.

Spoiler

Melee still sucks at sea. I had 56% chance to hit the fish with all feats and best suspension. So it still sucks, just not as bad as without them. Luckily, we have many attacks, and also throwing knives hit fine.

Well, I'm in Nexus Tech, for example, and clearing at least a couple levels until I find the key to disable security (no hacking). And every time a bunch of handmaidens/strongmen spawn I'm just like "yeah OK, EMT/Plasma/Energy knife pew pew pew, no danger no variation, just reload if I fuck something up". No incap, no bleed stack, and even slower if mech damage threshold means no combo stacking. Am I just doing something dumb?

Certainly, every underrail battle with every build becomes routine flushing, but at least there's some situational variation when, say, taking on death stalkers or even natives. 5 statues and I'm just bleurgh