Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Ol' Willy]

QUESTION: I see on various vids players destroying the mutagen tanks before fighting Tchort. However, every time I have tried to do this on Dominating, some tchortling randomly spawns next to the mutagen tank, and that's the end of it. If I engage with the tchortling then the tentacles come over, so I have to abandon destroying the tanks and go immediately for Tchort. Am I missing something here? How is destroying the tanks possible with the random spawning BS?

You got to make noise so critters would go away to investigate it. TNT works fine for that purpose

 

[Blaine]

It's been March-April of this year since my last playthrough of Underrail, and I want everyone to know that I'm still mad about the things I was mad about then:

the psi nerf
the repair kit nerf
NVG battery capacity
the completely unnecessary Spear Throw nerf (which happened shortly after Expedition's release, and in particular changed the feat such that min-maxed gear is required to exactly hit the threshold to maximize number of throws)
the absurd and rather unnecessary extent to which crafted gear outclasses purchased gear
the relative uselessness of most unique items (exacerbated by the strength of crafted gear)

No doubt there are many other things I've forgotten. Ah yeah, almost forgot about locusts. Well, at least an attempt was made to make them less obnoxious, with some limited success.

 

[Trashos]

the absurd and rather unnecessary extent to which crafted gear outclasses purchased gear
the relative uselessness of most unique items (exacerbated by the strength of crafted gear)

Crafting requires a huge investment. I do not see any other way this could have been done.
In many of my builds I use unique gear as placeholders until my crafting is good enough to take over. For example, there are unique gloves that can be useful till relatively late in the game. And I use unique pistols before I acquire the advanced catalyzing belt in my chem builds.

Non-crafting builds had better invest those saved skillpoints in something that will make up the difference. It should not be hard to do, it is a lot of points.

 

[Hex]

It's been March-April of this year since my last playthrough of Underrail, and I want everyone to know that I'm still mad about the things I was mad about then...

Which version is the best then?

 

[Raghar]

the absurd and rather unnecessary extent to which crafted gear outclasses purchased gear

Crafting should produce better stuff than shops sell, when it's done be expert in the field. How do you think these items in the shop are manufactured? By people who have average skills.

 

[Blaine]

Crafting requires a huge investment. I do not see any other way this could have been done.

The solution is implicit in your statement: Reduce the necessary investment.

Point for point, any individual crafting skill provides more value—not only in combat power, but also monetary gain—than any non-crafting skill. Their contribution to combat may be indirect, but without them, your direct offensive skills will be substantially hobbled.

Quite apart from this, however, crafting skills are extremely game-able. If you are aware of the necessary thresholds to craft certain keystone items, you can get the most out of them with the fewest points invested. It's still a big investment, but the knowledgeable player can minimize it; while the new player, going in blind, is likely to waste points, unaware that values higher than XX will do him no good, or that significant boosts (benches, medicines) will become available to lower the absolute threshold.

In fact, as the game has received updates, the total investment needed for crafting skills has fallen. That's due mainly to the benches and the increased level cap, with only a few added items requiring somewhat higher crafting skill thresholds than in v1.0, and many of these skippable (since they come near the end of progression).

Non-crafting builds had better invest those saved skillpoints in something that will make up the difference. It should not be hard to do, it is a lot of points.

In this game, versatility is no substitute for sheer power.

Crafting should produce better stuff than shops sell, when it's done be expert in the field. How do you think these items in the shop are manufactured? By people who have average skills.

Better, yes, but not 3-5x better—like the classic >2,000 HP shield emitter that I post a screenshot of near the end of most of my playthroughs.

 

[Sykar]

the absurd and rather unnecessary extent to which crafted gear outclasses purchased gear
the relative uselessness of most unique items (exacerbated by the strength of crafted gear)

Crafting requires a huge investment. I do not see any other way this could have been done.
In many of my builds I use unique gear as placeholders until my crafting is good enough to take over. For example, there are unique gloves that can be useful till relatively late in the game. And I use unique pistols before I acquire the advanced catalyzing belt in my chem builds.

Non-crafting builds had better invest those saved skillpoints in something that will make up the difference. It should not be hard to do, it is a lot of points.

In reality the top craftsmen would NOT be of the adventuring type. Being a master craftsman at the pinnacle of what human hands and minds can achieve requires CONSTANT practice in the workshop with hardly any time to dick around high on mushroom bew. As the famous basketball proverb goes, those who stop improving have stopped being good.
There is absolutely NO argument for not having master craftsmen in the game that can for exorbitant prices and a waiting time make you top notch gear for your build. In such a situation the crafting skills would still be valuable to save money but they would not be the be all end all requirement for DOMINATING. Even on hard the lack of crafting is VERY noticable.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

specialization is for insects.

 

[Blaine]

Sykar I think it's going a little too far to relegate crafting skills entirely to cost savings and convenience. I do think that crafted gear should be the best—but by a sane margin.

Crafting is already fairly powerful simply by virtue of customization, allowing you to select the attachments and modifiers that ideally suit whatever build you're going for. I just think it's a little too much when your custom-built gun also dishes out nearly double the damage of the best one available from a shop, your cyberpunk gizmo has double the battery capacity and 50% higher stats, your shield has 3x the EHP, et cetera.

This is very easily remedied by dialing down the power of crafted gear somewhat, while dialing up shop-bought (and looted—that's another issue, >95% of loot is ultimately vendor trash) gear somewhat. You could then skip some or all crafting skills while only somewhat diminishing the power of your now more-versatile build, rather than becoming substantially crippled.

specialization is for insects.

As well as Underrail players on any difficulty higher than Average Steam User.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

crafted gear shouldn't be the best because there's no good argument as to why crafted gear should come close to the kind of tech they were putting out before shit hit the fan

 

[Blaine]

crafted gear shouldn't be the best because there's no good argument as to why crafted gear should come close to the kind of tech they were putting out before shit hit the fan

Interesting logical tack, but there are plenty of good counter-arguments.

Crafted gear may be fabricated in whole or in part from intact or refurbished components that were designed and manufactured before the fall of the pre-Underrail civilization.

Furthermore, the contemporary civilization of Underrail was never wholly severed from the technology of the past; there was no total descent into a Stone Age analogue. Continuity was never fully (or even mostly) obliterated. Well-heeled scientific organizations, though they may have changed their structure, fragmented, and/or degenerated, continued to advance the research of the megacorps for decades after mankind went underground, right up until the time the game takes place—perhaps not as well or as quickly as could have been accomplished above ground, and yet the lore of the game makes it clear that the environment of Underrail, in and of itself, contributed in certain ways to the advancement of technology, both because of the unique biomes that evolved and also due to the demands and necessities of life below ground.

Did you forget about The Dude (LSD-themed mad scientist) and what he accomplished while living in Underrail? He may be included in Underrail mostly for comic relief and an acid trip-themed adventure within the game, but he is part of its lore.

In addition, the Oculus and various superhuman beings suggest that outside elements—space aliens and such, basically—may have added spice (and technology, etc.) that wasn't in the soup hundreds of years prior.

All of this is to say that you haven't thought this through enough. My main point is that the thread of the past wasn't wholly severed, that technological advancement didn't grind to a complete halt, and that in some ways it may have been augmented.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

crafted gear shouldn't be the best because there's no good argument as to why crafted gear should come close to the kind of tech they were putting out before shit hit the fan

Interesting logical tack, but there are plenty of good counter-arguments.

Crafted gear may be fabricated in whole or in part from intact or refurbished components that were designed and manufactured before the fall of the pre-Underrail civilization.

Furthermore, the contemporary civilization of Underrail was never wholly severed from the technology of the past; there was no total descent into a Stone Age analogue. Continuity was never fully (or even mostly) obliterated. Well-heeled scientific organizations, though they may have changed their structure, fragmented, and/or degenerated, continued to advance the research of the megacorps for decades after mankind went underground—perhaps not as well or as quickly as could have been accomplished above ground, and yet the lore of the game makes it clear that the environment of Underrail, in and of itself, contributed in certain ways to the advancement of technology, both because of the unique biomes that evolved and also due to the demands and necessities of life below ground.

Did you forget about The Dude (LSD-themed mad scientist) and what he accomplished while living in Underrail? He may be included in Underrail mostly for comic relief and an acid trip-themed adventure within the game, but he is part of its lore.

In addition, the Oculus and various superhuman beings suggest that outside elements—space aliens and such, basically—may have added spice (and technology, etc.) that wasn't in the soup hundreds of years prior.

All of this is to say that you haven't thought this through enough. My main point is that the thread of the past wasn't wholly severed, that technological advancement didn't grind to a complete halt, and that in some ways it may have been augmented.

I thought it out very thoroughly: not playing into the idea of ancient, lost artifacts would be dumb.

 

[Blaine]

I thought it out very thoroughly: not playing into the idea of ancient, lost artifacts would be dumb.

Care to elaborate?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I thought it out very thoroughly: not playing into the idea of ancient, lost artifacts would be dumb.

Care to elaborate?

adding generic crafting -- and having it make the best items of all things -- just makes it another generic sci-fi setting rather than one with interesting lost artifacts to discover through exploration
syko or whatever is right that there's no chance your character would ever produce anything on par with a master craftsman, let alone on par with a high-science industrial corponation. Duct taping things you barely understand together to make something you really barely understand? Sure.

 

[jackofshadows]

no chance your character would ever produce anything on par with a master craftsman, let alone on par with a high-science industrial corponation.

But you craft mostly by use of existing high-tech components. High skill combine those implies talent/dedication - that's fine. The opposite route is the boring one.

 

[thesecret1]

crafted gear shouldn't be the best because there's no good argument as to why crafted gear should come close to the kind of tech they were putting out before shit hit the fan

Why would you ever invest points in crafting if it didn't give you the best gear? Argument about saving money is moot when the game throws money at you in such quantities that you'll never ever be short on it

 

[Trashos]

We are talking about a game where the PC can end up taking on whole armies often by himself, right? For all its incline, in UR you are a bigtime hero/chosen one. So the point about the realism of being a master craftsman yourself is moot.

Nevertheless, there ARE master craftsmen in the game who you can't replicate yourself. Leonie in Foundry with her metal processing. Bernard with his furnace Gloria can also make things you can't. The Protectorate can build dreadnaughts. One of the Freds at Camp Hathor built a crafting bench. There are also gadgets you can buy but can't craft, eg that thing sold by Coretech that turns robots against each other, the vanishing powder grenade sold by Oculus etc-etc.

Blaine, you can buy 1000 Capacity energy shields at Coretech. Subject to random occurence, but if you visit often (and have unlocked highest tier) you will eventually find one. So with shields it is more like 2x you can craft, and you also need a feat to do that (Power Management). The point remains, just setting it straight.

Btw, since the expansion there are cocktails (All In) and drugs (Hypercerebrix) that can also save crafting points. Still a huge investment, of course.

The way I see it, instead of taking Mechanics and Electronics to build energy spears you can take a whole new psi school. Those skillpoints matter. Also, maxed Throwing or Traps is no laughing matter. Skillpoints matter.

 

[Tigranes]

I'm more interested to hear if someone has an idea of what crafting could look like in a game like Underrail.

If you're going for versatility over power, then perhaps crafting gets you into 'utility' objects, and doesn't compete with retailers for the same items? E.g. you can only ever craft a taser, but you can only ever buy top range sniper rifles. So you're dependent on faction-gated shop access & exploration for the best weapons and dont' need crafting, but crafting investment might open up a litany of useful items to expand your situational response.

In the current form, I actually suspect you can do fine on Dom without crafting, though combine that with no speedhack / merchant refresh and it might certainly be a very laborious playthrough. I certainly think adding more uniques that tangibly affect your play, like the unique glove/fists or Dragunov, would be good.

I don't really think the realism argument matters that much if the gameplay is good.

 

[lukaszek]

uniques tend to be underwhelming(well, fists are nice, perhaps some sniper rifles(never played)

poisons/survival are fine in such games. Ammunition/batteries too. Assembling high tech guns is weird.

Only memorable item crafting I can think of in other games, are light saber assembly in kotor and some artifact in bg2 with dwarf smith

 

[Tigranes]

uniques tend to be underwhelming(well, fists are nice, perhaps some sniper rifles(never played)

poisons/survival are fine in such games. Ammunition/batteries too. Assembling high tech guns is weird.

Only memorable item crafting I can think of in other games, are light saber assembly in kotor and some artifact in bg2 with dwarf smith

You god damn heathen duck

 

[lukaszek]

funny thing about arcanum is that many of those cool assembled weapons could be found somewhere in the world. Well, its cool at first, then its about rushing to steal them with fate point. Still its deterministic so one can only approve

 

[Spark Mandriller]

Might be a good idea to make it so unique items can be upgraded with crafting skills. Wouldn't solve the problem of crafting being way too good, but it'd at least make uniques worthwhile instead of most of them being trash. And it wouldn't make crafting skills a waste of points the way buffing uniques to be really good would.

 

[Blaine]

adding generic crafting -- and having it make the best items of all things -- just makes it another generic sci-fi setting rather than one with interesting lost artifacts to discover through exploration

I see your point, of course, but you seem to be ignoring mine—which is that the Underrail civilization never truly fell. Continuities to the laboratories, databases, and technologies of the past were never really severed.

Beyond that, there are two further points to make. One is that high technology as we know it in the real world breaks down constantly, requires continual maintenance, and simply doesn't last. I would never expect a suit of powered armor, a laser rifle, a supercomputer, or anything of the sort to actually be functional after two hundred years languishing in a bunker as seen in Fallout, for example. You could argue that advancements in technology might greatly increase the robustness and longevity of such things, but so far the trend has been the opposite.

The other point is that "finding lost artifacts" is just as common a sci-fi trope (and one borrowed from fantasy, at that) as any other well known trope, so your preference doesn't even hold water from a logical standpoint.

syko or whatever is right that there's no chance your character would ever produce anything on par with a master craftsman, let alone on par with a high-science industrial corponation. Duct taping things you barely understand together to make something you really barely understand? Sure.

No doubt, but some allowances must be made for the purposes of gameplay within a fantasy world. I'm not necessarily defending the fact that the protagonist can become a master pharmacist, biologist, gunsmith, armorsmith, tailor, and electronics expert, but 100% realism is rarely desirable outside of aircraft or orbital mechanics simulators.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Might be a good idea to make it so unique items can be upgraded with crafting skills. Wouldn't solve the problem of crafting being way too good, but it'd at least make uniques worthwhile instead of most of them being trash. And it wouldn't make crafting skills a waste of points the way buffing uniques to be really good would.

Not opposed to this. I'd still rather make a .44 cal SMG and just mass fire explosive rounds.

 

[CHEMS]

uniques tend to be underwhelming(well, fists are nice, perhaps some sniper rifles(never played)

poisons/survival are fine in such games. Ammunition/batteries too. Assembling high tech guns is weird.

Only memorable item crafting I can think of in other games, are light saber assembly in kotor and some artifact in bg2 with dwarf smith

You god damn heathen duck

That weapon was the shit.