Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Trashos]

Bloody disgusting random encounter:

Spoiler

On my way back to SGS from Newton, Steven the Horrible with his gang blocked my way one screen east of the SGS Sentry. Come on, what do you want me to do against them at this stage with my fist build?! I can barely take on single enemies rn.

So I was caught between them and the rathounds/beetles south of Junkyard. I eventually managed to stealth past the beetles and take the Junkyard boat to SGS, but this is very ironman-unfriendly.

 

[Trashos]

There seem to be major AI changes. The enemy seeking patterns after you hide and end combat seem to be more aggressive, but more on that as I continue to monitor the situation. What I really want to comment on is the bottom level of GMS with the raiders:

Spoiler

I use my usual tactic: I kill the raiders outside the raider room, open the door of the raider room, place traps in front of the door, turn on the turret, and shoot the raider leader from afar with a crossbow to begin combat. The raiders used to get stuck on my traps and engage with the turret, which would wipe them out.

Now the raider leader tries to come to me through the kitchen to avoid my traps. Fine, I place double the traps on that exit as well to force him to come out of the main exit and engage the turret. They get stuck on the traps, one of them engages with the turret and gets killed, the leader and the female stop pursuing and combat ends.

I re-initiate combat with the same method, sometimes the pursue me, sometimes they engage with the turret, sometimes they stop pursuing anything and combat ends again. In the meantime, when combat stopped, the friendly dwellers would stay put where they happened to be and wouldn't return to their positions. They generally looked like they didn't know where they wanted to go.

I don't know what is the tactic that the developers have in mind, but with my tactic this place is now a mess. I understand that they are trying to make it more challenging, but it was satisfying taking out the raiders with the turret and that shouldn't have changed. At any rate, at the current state the AI needs more work.

 

[ItsChon]

There seem to be major AI changes. The enemy seeking patterns after you hide and end combat seem to be more aggressive, but more on that as I continue to monitor the situation. What I really want to comment on is the bottom level of GMS with the raiders:

Spoiler

I use my usual tactic: I kill the raiders outside the raider room, open the door of the raider room, place traps in front of the door, turn on the turret, and shoot the raider leader from afar with a crossbow to begin combat. The raiders used to get stuck on my traps and engage with the turret, which would wipe them out.

Now the raider leader tries to come to me through the kitchen to avoid my traps. Fine, I place double the traps on that exit as well to force him to come out of the main exit and engage the turret. They get stuck on the traps, one of them engages with the turret and gets killed, the leader and the female stop pursuing and combat ends.

I re-initiate combat with the same method, sometimes the pursue me, sometimes they engage with the turret, sometimes they stop pursuing anything and combat ends again. In the meantime, when combat stopped, the friendly dwellers would stay put where they happened to be and wouldn't return to their positions. They generally looked like they didn't know where they wanted to go.

I don't know what is the tactic that the developers have in mind, but with my tactic this place is now a mess. I understand that they are trying to make it more challenging, but it was satisfying taking out the raiders with the turret and that shouldn't have changed. At any rate, at the current state the AI needs more work.

It's always interesting to see how different people have different tactics for dealing with certain encounters. What I usually do is open the door and chuck a grenade first, then a flashbang at the enemies. I can then usually just run up and finish off the weakened, incapacitated characters.

As a side note, I've always wondered if anyone else has noticed that there is a bug for grenade, flashbang, and other such throwable weapons that effects THC. If you throw one of these items through a doorway, it's guaranteed to land in the correct spot, regardless of the THC. It's wonky sometimes, but it has happened so consistently in the hundreds of hours that I've been playing this game, it's for sure real. If you don't believe me, test this theory out for yourself. I think you'll find I'm quite right.

 

[Trashos]

t's always interesting to see how different people have different tactics for dealing with certain encounters. What I usually do is open the door and chuck a grenade first, then a flashbang at the enemies. I can then usually just run up and finish off the weakened, incapacitated characters.

Grenade? Hm... there are friendlies near the raiders, don't they get hit?

As a side note, I've always wondered if anyone else has noticed that there is a bug for grenade, flashbang, and other such throwable weapons that effects THC. If you throw one of these items through a doorway, it's guaranteed to land in the correct spot, regardless of the THC. It's wonky sometimes, but it has happened so consistently in the hundreds of hours that I've been playing this game, it's for sure real. If you don't believe me, test this theory out for yourself. I think you'll find I'm quite right.

Yes, this always happened. With current logic the grenade HAS TO pass through the doorway to land somewhere close to where you threw it. And since it can't turn AFTER it passes the doorway, it has to land somewhere on the straight line. I actually like this and consider it an advanced tactic, kinda like entering combat to pass in front of cameras.

 

[ItsChon]

t's always interesting to see how different people have different tactics for dealing with certain encounters. What I usually do is open the door and chuck a grenade first, then a flashbang at the enemies. I can then usually just run up and finish off the weakened, incapacitated characters.

Grenade? Hm... there are friendlies near the raiders, don't they get hit?

As a side note, I've always wondered if anyone else has noticed that there is a bug for grenade, flashbang, and other such throwable weapons that effects THC. If you throw one of these items through a doorway, it's guaranteed to land in the correct spot, regardless of the THC. It's wonky sometimes, but it has happened so consistently in the hundreds of hours that I've been playing this game, it's for sure real. If you don't believe me, test this theory out for yourself. I think you'll find I'm quite right.

Yes, this always happened. With current logic the grenade HAS TO pass through the doorway to land somewhere close to where you threw it. And since it can't turn AFTER it passes the doorway, it has to land somewhere on the straight line. I actually like this and consider it an advanced tactic, kinda like entering combat to pass in front of cameras.

If you place the Grenade right on top of the middle raider, that's the closest in front of you, the cone avoids the friendlies completely while also hitting all the raiders. The three raiders on the side get hit by the very tip of the radius, so they'll be rather healthy, but with some okay RNG and a good grenade, the raider in the middle of the blast zone should die instantly. It should be rather elementary then to focus down the two 40% health raiders in the next two turns before they can hypo back up and cause you some damage. IDK how Ironman viable this is, but it usually works within 1-3 reloads if not outright the first time.

 

[Trashos]

The stalkers in the early underpassages have been beefed up. Their HP have gone up. Of course, I can't see the rest of their stats. The toxic cloud in the area south of Blaine is also much more aggressive in the damage it deals with sudden huge spikes, and I am finding it extremely hard to use it to get under 30% health for SI (totally impossible for ironman). I will use traps for SI instead (can't use caltrops, I have Sure Step).

I am not entirely sure that a change in the game's difficulty was warranted at this point, but let's see how it goes.

Back to the topic of random events, a crate popped up in that same area south of Blaine and blocked my way to the stalker in the southeast. This was only a minor annoyance as I could use a different route to him, but this is the second time already that a random event blocks my way (the first being Steven the Horrible blocking my way to SGS). Is this a new trend or sth?

 

[Trashos]

The Coretech "Defend the Warehouse" mission looks to be beefed up as well. Now, if there were a quest that didn't need beefing up...
Anyway, I got many snipers and metal armored foes this time. But maybe there is a random chance to this all, and I just got rich unlucky.

 

[Sykar]

They still cannot take care of the traps right at the entrance and luckily you can move the team up as well. about 30-40 traps do the trick.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Is the only reliable way to get empty shell casings to just buy the corresponding ammo and just fire it to get the percentage back?

 

[Trashos]

Is the only reliable way to get empty shell casings to just buy the corresponding ammo and just fire it to get the percentage back?

Yes. Try not to use special ammo when you don't have to.

------------
In other news, I am preparing my first knives build, and so I did some analysis on the feat Ripper. I have made some assumptions:
- Ripper is applied to the crit dam with the Cheap Shots bonus included.
- Critical Power bonus takes into account the Ripper bonus.
Let me know if there is any mistake.

I will do a thread with the mathematical details when I finish the writeup. To keep you from waiting for the conclusions: if my assumptions are correct, then Ripper is a great feat totally worth the 2 points in Will, and specializing in Ripper should be first priority (eg, over specializing in Cheap Shots) because it is so awesome.

 

[Sheepherder]

- Critical Power bonus takes into account the Ripper bonus.

Other way around. Increase from Crit Popwer comes before Ripper.
On knives, fully spec Crit Power first. For the remaining 5 points - Ripper spec is better than Cheap Shots spec only if enemy has under ~80% HP.

 

[Trashos]

Well, fuck.

Sheepherder, still, I am not getting the results you are mentioning. What knife are you considering and what is its crit dam bonus? All the knives I see in the wiki are up to 150% crit dam bonus, so the Cheap Shots spec should be better than or equal to the CP spec for all of them (equal for 150%, better for <150%).

 

[lukaszek]

you dont really need specs into moar crit powah. I found specs into interloper or expose weakness more useful.
Whats more, versatility without specs is going to suit you better than expose weakness. Lazor pistols will be strong with knife build.

 

[Sheepherder]

Well, fuck.

Sheepherder, still, I am not getting the results you are mentioning. What knife are you considering and what is its crit dam bonus? All the knives I see in the wiki are up to 150% crit dam bonus, so the Cheap Shots spec should be better than or equal to the CP spec for all of them (equal for 150%, better for <150%).

The best one, of course - the Shiv!

Looking at he maths, it seems my data on regular knives is outdated, last I played them was from before the CP nerf. I need to attend some Underrail seminars to keep my knowledge up to date.
For tungsten serrated, CS and CP specs seem to be equal, barring some consumables like Bison milk. Huh. Also, a 7/8 spec point split is better than 10/5 split by whole 3%!!!

 

[Trashos]

No shivs allowed! (great writeup on your shiv build, btw).
Anyway, for <=150% crit dam bonus it is basically ripper vs cheap shots. In light of the new info on the order that the effects are applied, it looks like the Cheap Shots spec is better until roughly 60% health, and then for lower health the Ripper spec is better (it also depends on the exact weapon crit dam bonus, but that's roughly what is going on). However, it could easily be argued that early damage is more important than late damage, because:
a) Who the hell cares what your damage is when the opponent is at 1% health.
b) More damage early means larger ripper effect for your next attacks.

So I 'd say that overall one can choose whatever the hell he wants, but in a handwavy manner I'd say that the Cheap Shots spec will pay off very slightly better for all opponents without huge HP. Anyway, the difference should not be that important.

From a philosophy of design perspective, I 'd say that the more specialized feat (ripper) should have had the *clearly* better specialization. I am speccing in Cheap Shots with my fist builds, it is a bit disappointing that I 'll be speccing in Cheap Shots with my knife build again.

 

[Trashos]

you dont really need specs into moar crit powah. I found specs into interloper or expose weakness more useful.
Whats more, versatility without specs is going to suit you better than expose weakness. Lazor pistols will be strong with knife build.

Sure, my goal was to compare crit damage specializations. If you want something different, go ahead. I will be taking 1 Expose Weakness spec as well. But then it is going to be full crit damage for me, with the possible exception of a Fatal Throw spec that I might consider.

 

[Tigranes]

Do damage types factor into monster resistances in any significant way? I.e. is X monster weak to Y damage? I've never seen this kind of info displayed anywhere

It's very important on higher difficulty levels. But it's easy enough to learn by experience and remember intuitively - e.g. Burrowers easy to set on fire, machines strong vs fire and cold, mutants strong vs acid, so on.

I'm into lategame with my Chem Pistolero + Metathermics elementalist build, and while I'm sure it's old news, Cryogenic Barrier is absolue killer in the high seas. Meditation + Mania + Cryogenic Barrier = an entire team of 3 Aegis Patrollers instagibbed. Appears to work just as well with pretty much all sea monsters. I have almost always avoided sea combat due to how your accuracy goes down the tank (unless high AGI pirate trained) and you lose your energy shield, so it's a delight to crash the high seas.

Anyway, the elementalist is definitely a pretty strong and stress-free, fun way to play, will post build later. Only thing I have to figure out now is how to hit the Nagas - I suppose I can kit up to 100% resistance then spam XAL-001, in the absence of mammoth crits.

 

[Tigranes]

There seem to be major AI changes. The enemy seeking patterns after you hide and end combat seem to be more aggressive, but more on that as I continue to monitor the situation. What I really want to comment on is the bottom level of GMS with the raiders:

Spoiler

I use my usual tactic: I kill the raiders outside the raider room, open the door of the raider room, place traps in front of the door, turn on the turret, and shoot the raider leader from afar with a crossbow to begin combat. The raiders used to get stuck on my traps and engage with the turret, which would wipe them out.

Now the raider leader tries to come to me through the kitchen to avoid my traps. Fine, I place double the traps on that exit as well to force him to come out of the main exit and engage the turret. They get stuck on the traps, one of them engages with the turret and gets killed, the leader and the female stop pursuing and combat ends.

I re-initiate combat with the same method, sometimes the pursue me, sometimes they engage with the turret, sometimes they stop pursuing anything and combat ends again. In the meantime, when combat stopped, the friendly dwellers would stay put where they happened to be and wouldn't return to their positions. They generally looked like they didn't know where they wanted to go.

I don't know what is the tactic that the developers have in mind, but with my tactic this place is now a mess. I understand that they are trying to make it more challenging, but it was satisfying taking out the raiders with the turret and that shouldn't have changed. At any rate, at the current state the AI needs more work.

I've always done it the ItsChon way with the grenade from the kitchen, or alternatively, set up traps to both kitchen entrances. But it makes perfect sense that you'd try to use the turret, I don't know why I never did.

There are certain Underrail fights that become "set pieces" and it's fun to see how different characters fare. For me the big change recently has been how I approach the Balor map. I used to try and sneak kill many strugglers then set up a last stand in the NE corner of map (the narrow corridors behind the largest building) or something. Now, I just enter in the NW corner (the tiny antechamber opening into a large room), use the poor visibility and twisted approach to kill, and then when things get hot I'll exit the map, show up on the other side (SW), and clean up. Arguably exploits the map exits, but I think you still have to plan for exit AP cost and free enemy turn when you reenter.

 

[Trashos]

Now, I just enter in the NW corner (the tiny antechamber opening into a large room), use the poor visibility and twisted approach to kill, and then when things get hot I'll exit the map, show up on the other side (SW), and clean up. Arguably exploits the map exits, but I think you still have to plan for exit AP cost and free enemy turn when you reenter.

When I am high level enough, I enter from NW and kill all the elites before Balor opens the door. I make sure they are all dead or disabled after the 1st round so that they don't bring help. They should all be dead in the 2nd round. I am in stealth when Balor shows up later, close the door behind him and it is just me and him. I think I did this at lvl22 on my chem run.

I have almost always avoided sea combat due to how your accuracy goes down the tank (unless high AGI pirate trained) and you lose your energy shield, so it's a delight to crash the high seas.

B...but the oddities!
I go 100% Bio resistant with the boots, a Bio helmet, and the CAU armor, and the Heartbreakers are mostly ineffective. Then the serpents are manageable (they also tend to gtfo when they are set on fire).

Nagas

Allow me to suggest a good ol' 0.44 pistol with w2c bullets. If you have a decent pistol, it is going to work faster than acid.

 

[razvedchiki]

so i went to plant them explosives to take out the scrappers from that sweet loot, heard a sneak sound which i thought was a sound bug untill a stalker sucked my inards
sneaky styg!

 

[Fenix]

Burrowers easy to set on fire

Hm? I think they are resistant to fire, as their armor plates shows.

 

[Tigranes]

Burrowers easy to set on fire

Hm? I think they are resistant to fire, as their armor plates shows.

They have a bit of fire resistance, but not a lot, and I find the DOT+fear more useful than doing a tiny bit more damage as cold. But yes, you're right in terms of the resistance itself.

 

[Sheepherder]

No shivs allowed! (great writeup on your shiv build, btw).
Anyway, for <=150% crit dam bonus it is basically ripper vs cheap shots. In light of the new info on the order that the effects are applied, it looks like the Cheap Shots spec is better until roughly 60% health, and then for lower health the Ripper spec is better (it also depends on the exact weapon crit dam bonus, but that's roughly what is going on). However, it could easily be argued that early damage is more important than late damage, because:
a) Who the hell cares what your damage is when the opponent is at 1% health.
b) More damage early means larger ripper effect for your next attacks.

So I 'd say that overall one can choose whatever the hell he wants, but in a handwavy manner I'd say that the Cheap Shots spec will pay off very slightly better for all opponents without huge HP. Anyway, the difference should not be that important.

From a philosophy of design perspective, I 'd say that the more specialized feat (ripper) should have had the *clearly* better specialization. I am speccing in Cheap Shots with my fist builds, it is a bit disappointing that I 'll be speccing in Cheap Shots with my knife build again.

Before the CP nerf, it was the best spec in every case for crit build. The fact that there are contenders is an improvement. I remember the wailing that the nerf produced. People were claiming that the only "viable" weapon after the nerf was the ARs :D

As for fist spec, have you consider speccing Combo damage? I'm not 100% sure how exactly it stacked, but from some testing I found that the damage it provided was comparable to CS. I think I tested it with unarmed and not fist weapons.

 

[Trashos]

Combo

I am not a big fan of Combo, and while I eventually take it, I don't plan around it. The reason I like fist builds is because of Cheap Shots and the huge amount of attacks.

At any rate, fully specced combo is about equal to fully specced Cheap Shots, with the main difference being that it is much easier to get unlucky with Combo. The stars have to align in order to both achieve the Combo bonus and crit at the same time, and while this will happen on average 3 times per round (assuming 22 attacks per round at 4ap, 95% to hit chance, and for demonstration purposes 50% crit chance), it is much easier for bad rolls to screw you with Combo than with Cheap Shots.
(Warning: the above analysis was done once upon the time for my own use, and I doubt I have doublechecked it. But the conclusion that you can't really depend on Combo is correct.)

I respect Ripper much more than Combo. But then again Ripper costs 2 Will points.

 

[CHEMS]

The Coretech "Defend the Warehouse" mission looks to be beefed up as well. Now, if there were a quest that didn't need beefing up...
Anyway, I got many snipers and metal armored foes this time. But maybe there is a random chance to this all, and I just got rich unlucky.

This mission is trivial since we got the option to just camp right outside the exit grid and pop the mercenaries as soon as they get in. Before that, this mission was absolute hell as you'd get sniped all the time by some invisible asshole.