Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Sykar]

I do not make exceptions for devs. You want to be treated with civility and respect? Then show it yourself.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Psy is awesome right now. Shut up.

You're derailed.

 

[Sykar]

Psy is awesome right now. Shut up.

You're derailed.

Got any more

?

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Core city elections are not rigged by Oligarchs. There's no such thing as Oligarchs. It's all a Faceless plot to discredit our system.

 

[Knifegaf]

I somewhat agree that a lot of the spells are niche or build specific but the build specific ones I don’t have a problem with. I don’t see why force emissions, precog, and distortion need to be useful for every build in that school. I do agree far too many spells are dogshit though. The new additions are pretty meh minus plasma beam too. Transference is terrible and I don’t think predation is worth it for the AP cost you spend on casting it. Chains do pretty bad damage and the way they work aren’t effective. Root is ok, just wish it was less RNG. The ice spell is also pretty niche.

my main issue with niche spells is that they are rarely worth 2 innervations. That’s what it’ll usually take since if it’s just for 1-2 encounters then you don’t want that spell taking up a slot.

p.s. shitting on cryostasis is a true retard test. I’ll be fair and say maybe it lost some usefulness because of warm up but even then I still think it’s amazing to lock down a target for up to 8 turns, it’s 100% reliable (minus freeze immune), and it also counts as an incap so restarting a fight with a bad start can be a thing. Wouldn’t do an Ironman run without it. You basically cannot lose a 1v1 if cryo-stasis isn’t on cooldown

 

[Sykar]

Early on it is usually too expensive both in terms of PSI cost and slot. Later you deal so much damage it is rarely worth the effort. For 8 turns you have to stack up via Cryo. Might as well finish them off. 8 turns is also excessive when do you need that much CC duration? Arena is one of the few places where it has some uses but I would much rather use Implosion+Recurrence+Fear. They are usually dead before fear wears off.

 

[Knifegaf]

True it’s way better to use 3 spells, lol. Wtf did I just read? Also getting those stacks isn’t difficult with premed orb

 

[Knifegaf]

8 turns of having someone block a choke is pretty nice. I don’t know what spells early on can provide you the CC cryostasis can reliably and for such a low AP cost. Guaranteed CC, how is that not worth a slot? On hybrid characters I don’t think I’ve run out of psi. Psycho MT/PK I think was the only time I came across this problem but even then when I have 8 turns of not having to deal with a target it’s pretty easy to replenish my psi during that time. Trip school might have more of a problem but I think it’s inefficient to go more than 2 school anyway.

 

[Black Angel]

There's nothing wrong with niche psi abilities... until you have limited psi slots and there's a material cost to swapping your loadout. Then you're a fool to not run with the most broadly useful stuff all the time.

Honestly, this is it. Unless someone could properly answer this, I really can't see any proper justifications for the new PSI system. Everyone else's seems to have completely lost hope for any plans to properly address these issues (and when I said 'these', I'm including the other rather questionable designs decisions like nerfing AR and later Spear Throw, etc etc) so now they just keep inhaling that copium.

Mac_Orion I sincerely hope you don't take what Sykar himself specifically said to heart and correlates it with what the rest of us has been saying. Because contrary to what a lot of people thinks, the Codex isn't a hive mind at all.

 

[Whisper]

Will you fix the glaring PSI issue?

still haven't played this yet, what issue does psi have?

About half are now worthless or near worthless and never worth using/memorizing.

you saying half of those are worthless?
make a concrete post about the skills that you think that are bad and post it on our forum under suggestions with the reason you think there is no need to memorize them.

Some (some!) psi skills are very situational or tailored for specific build.

Cry-shield, Exo-thermic aura, Temporary rewind, Precognition are very niche, most will never use them.
And worst is Neurovisual disruption.

 

[Whisper]

Emission is also very niche probably.

I do not see "bad" psi skills, just very niche ones.
They are only useful if you build your character around them. If you do not, you will never use them.

 

[Knifegaf]

Emission is also very niche probably.

I do not see "bad" psi skills, just very niche ones.
They are only useful if you build your character around them. If you do not, you will never use them.

There are some that are pretty bad. Cryoshield, transference, neuralvisual, rewind, and predation are all pretty bad. I’m sure there are a few I’m missing that I would fit into the “bad” column but these come to my mind instantly. Especially cryoshield, what a pile of shit

 

[lukaszek]

putting any more work into cave wizardry is waste of time

Spoiler

unless its about dropping more such enemies ofc

 

[jackofshadows]

Countless easy fixes have been suggested and nothing was done.

If these devs were malleable pussies inclined to implement whatever they've been suggested, we could have an entirely different game by now.

Why would I WANT PSI or anything else to be trash in Infusion? I do not want trashy systems in games I enjoy.

Neither am I. I was simply implying that there's no point in that now. Once they rolled that "legacy" build it became clear that there's no turning back. It is your only give and take option still. You sure like to post the copium pic but it's you who actually need that stuff, except in a good way.

There's nothing wrong with niche psi abilities... until you have limited psi slots and there's a material cost to swapping your loadout. Then you're a fool to not run with the most broadly useful stuff all the time.

Niche abilities have limited use pretty much by definition. So yes, you run with the "broad load" most of the time and change it only if necessary. I don't see a problem with it since most builds work like that. Not to mention experienced players who knows where's what. On paper the swapping cost also further increases the INT importance for PSI users.

Instead of reducing tedium for AR/SMGs/etc they just INCREASED the tedium for other builds. Bloody idiotic.

Managing of all that is the part of the game, yes. You remind me of people were complaining about items weight and that's fucking ridiculous. Well, maybe they will add options for stuff that you consider tedious in their next game, we'll see.

I do not make exceptions for devs. You want to be treated with civility and respect? Then show it yourself.

Says the butthurt bitch who is annoyed by the fact that game isn't revolving around his specific preferences and rate everyone's post who disagreeing with him retarded :D

 

[Ol' Willy]

Honestly, this is it. Unless someone could properly answer this, I really can't see any proper justifications for the new PSI system. Everyone else's seems to have completely lost hope for any plans to properly address these issues (and when I said 'these', I'm including the other rather questionable designs decisions like nerfing AR and later Spear Throw, etc etc) so now they just keep inhaling that copium.

Every build requires preparation. Choose your weapons, tools, armor, meds, grenades and whatever. This wasn't true for PSI. You just walk around in psi-beetle vest and carry around a bunch of blue potions.
Now PSIkers are required to prepare just like everybody else

 

[Butter]

Honestly, this is it. Unless someone could properly answer this, I really can't see any proper justifications for the new PSI system. Everyone else's seems to have completely lost hope for any plans to properly address these issues (and when I said 'these', I'm including the other rather questionable designs decisions like nerfing AR and later Spear Throw, etc etc) so now they just keep inhaling that copium.

Every build requires preparation. Choose your weapons, tools, armor, meds, grenades and whatever. This wasn't true for PSI. You just walk around in psi-beetle vest and carry around a bunch of blue potions.
Now PSIkers are required to prepare just like everybody else

Why not design a system that requires preparation and doesn't fuck over niche abilities? You could say that the more powerful the ability, the more slots it requires, so it's a choice of equipping 8 niche abilities or 3 all-purpose ones.

 

[lukaszek]

Honestly, this is it. Unless someone could properly answer this, I really can't see any proper justifications for the new PSI system. Everyone else's seems to have completely lost hope for any plans to properly address these issues (and when I said 'these', I'm including the other rather questionable designs decisions like nerfing AR and later Spear Throw, etc etc) so now they just keep inhaling that copium.

Every build requires preparation. Choose your weapons, tools, armor, meds, grenades and whatever. This wasn't true for PSI. You just walk around in psi-beetle vest and carry around a bunch of blue potions.
Now PSIkers are required to prepare just like everybody else

Why not design a system that requires preparation and doesn't fuck over niche abilities? You could say that the more powerful the ability, the more slots it requires, so it's a choice of equipping 8 niche abilities or 3 all-purpose ones.

how about you go dumpster diving to find some rare scrolls lobotomy thingies. Later on you will inscribe spells abilities on them into your spellbook celebral computer.
Except as you said, some spells abilities are more powerful, so lets introduce levels/circles, easilly browsable by the flip swipe of the page.
Then we obviously are going to divide spells abilities into schools to keep tm/methatermics/whatever relevant.
Now you just need to pick spells abilities you will be casting on given day during rest by the fire

We did it guys!

 

[Mauman]

Eh....a lot of the problems would go away if the devs simply doubled (or at least increased it by 50% for a max of 12 abilities) the number of inervations available.

The devs would get to put their precious cap on psi, and players would have a little wiggle room for experimentation and niche abilities.

Would it make everybody happy all the time? Probably not. But it'd be a good compromise at least.

 

[Ramnozack]

I’ve mentioned it before, but instead of slots, I think a point buy system would work better for limiting psi abilities. More powerful psi abilities would cost more points to inervate and less powerful niche abilities would require less points. This way you wouldn’t be able to load up on all the most powerful psi abilities from each school, but you also wouldn’t be fucking over niche abilities like distortion field.

 

[Sykar]

Countless easy fixes have been suggested and nothing was done.

If these devs were malleable pussies inclined to implement whatever they've been suggested, we could have an entirely different game by now.

Why would I WANT PSI or anything else to be trash in Infusion? I do not want trashy systems in games I enjoy.

Neither am I. I was simply implying that there's no point in that now. Once they rolled that "legacy" build it became clear that there's no turning back. It is your only give and take option still. You sure like to post the copium pic but it's you who actually need that stuff, except in a good way.

There's nothing wrong with niche psi abilities... until you have limited psi slots and there's a material cost to swapping your loadout. Then you're a fool to not run with the most broadly useful stuff all the time.

Niche abilities have limited use pretty much by definition. So yes, you run with the "broad load" most of the time and change it only if necessary. I don't see a problem with it since most builds work like that. Not to mention experienced players who knows where's what. On paper the swapping cost also further increases the INT importance for PSI users.

Instead of reducing tedium for AR/SMGs/etc they just INCREASED the tedium for other builds. Bloody idiotic.

Managing of all that is the part of the game, yes. You remind me of people were complaining about items weight and that's fucking ridiculous. Well, maybe they will add options for stuff that you consider tedious in their next game, we'll see.

I do not make exceptions for devs. You want to be treated with civility and respect? Then show it yourself.

Says the butthurt bitch who is annoyed by the fact that game isn't revolving around his specific preferences and rate everyone's post who disagreeing with him retarded :D

They are butthurt bitches which is why Dominatning was released as a big middle finger to some people telling them that hard was too easy. The rest is the usual drivel of a Styg cock sucker, in other words worthless.
I rate retarded because there is not anything else to rate a post like yours moronic/idiotic/braindead/etc.

Honestly, this is it. Unless someone could properly answer this, I really can't see any proper justifications for the new PSI system. Everyone else's seems to have completely lost hope for any plans to properly address these issues (and when I said 'these', I'm including the other rather questionable designs decisions like nerfing AR and later Spear Throw, etc etc) so now they just keep inhaling that copium.

Every build requires preparation. Choose your weapons, tools, armor, meds, grenades and whatever. This wasn't true for PSI. You just walk around in psi-beetle vest and carry around a bunch of blue potions.
Now PSIkers are required to prepare just like everybody else

Ah a build does not behave like others. Instead of finding something FUN we introduce mind numbing tedium and make already rarely used abilities nigh useless. Genius!
Hey, pst! If people complain about tedium in other builds the solution is NOT to introduce tedium to builds that have less, moron.

 

[Knifegaf]

Countless easy fixes have been suggested and nothing was done.

If these devs were malleable pussies inclined to implement whatever they've been suggested, we could have an entirely different game by now.

Why would I WANT PSI or anything else to be trash in Infusion? I do not want trashy systems in games I enjoy.

Neither am I. I was simply implying that there's no point in that now. Once they rolled that "legacy" build it became clear that there's no turning back. It is your only give and take option still. You sure like to post the copium pic but it's you who actually need that stuff, except in a good way.

There's nothing wrong with niche psi abilities... until you have limited psi slots and there's a material cost to swapping your loadout. Then you're a fool to not run with the most broadly useful stuff all the time.

Niche abilities have limited use pretty much by definition. So yes, you run with the "broad load" most of the time and change it only if necessary. I don't see a problem with it since most builds work like that. Not to mention experienced players who knows where's what. On paper the swapping cost also further increases the INT importance for PSI users.

Instead of reducing tedium for AR/SMGs/etc they just INCREASED the tedium for other builds. Bloody idiotic.

Managing of all that is the part of the game, yes. You remind me of people were complaining about items weight and that's fucking ridiculous. Well, maybe they will add options for stuff that you consider tedious in their next game, we'll see.

I do not make exceptions for devs. You want to be treated with civility and respect? Then show it yourself.

Says the butthurt bitch who is annoyed by the fact that game isn't revolving around his specific preferences and rate everyone's post who disagreeing with him retarded :D

They are butthurt bitches which is why Dominatning was released as a big middle finger to some people telling them that hard was too easy. The rest is the usual drivel of a Styg cock sucker, in other words worthless.
I rate retarded because there is not anything else to rate a post like yours moronic/idiotic/braindead/etc.

Honestly, this is it. Unless someone could properly answer this, I really can't see any proper justifications for the new PSI system. Everyone else's seems to have completely lost hope for any plans to properly address these issues (and when I said 'these', I'm including the other rather questionable designs decisions like nerfing AR and later Spear Throw, etc etc) so now they just keep inhaling that copium.

Every build requires preparation. Choose your weapons, tools, armor, meds, grenades and whatever. This wasn't true for PSI. You just walk around in psi-beetle vest and carry around a bunch of blue potions.
Now PSIkers are required to prepare just like everybody else

Ah a build does not behave like others. Instead of finding something FUN we introduce mind numbing tedium and make already rarely used abilities nigh useless. Genius!

big middle finger how?

 

[Mauman]

I’ve mentioned it before, but instead of slots, I think a point buy system would work better for limiting psi abilities. More powerful psi abilities would cost more points to inervate and less powerful niche abilities would require less points. This way you wouldn’t be able to load up on all the most powerful psi abilities from each school, but you also wouldn’t be fucking over niche abilities like distortion field.

So....what? You now have a choice of, say, 4 abilities you'll need all the time or 8 abilities you need very rarely?

That seems like it would just exacerbate the problem. Not fix it.

Of course, it'd work if you just upped the ante on how many "powerful" abilities you could have. Like 8 maximum. Then you could have 4 "powerful" abilities and like 8 "weaker" abilities. Or whatever combination thereof.

But that seems WAY overly complicated when you could just up the number of slots period and do essentially the same thing without making it over-complicated.

 

[Sykar]

Countless easy fixes have been suggested and nothing was done.

If these devs were malleable pussies inclined to implement whatever they've been suggested, we could have an entirely different game by now.

Why would I WANT PSI or anything else to be trash in Infusion? I do not want trashy systems in games I enjoy.

Neither am I. I was simply implying that there's no point in that now. Once they rolled that "legacy" build it became clear that there's no turning back. It is your only give and take option still. You sure like to post the copium pic but it's you who actually need that stuff, except in a good way.

There's nothing wrong with niche psi abilities... until you have limited psi slots and there's a material cost to swapping your loadout. Then you're a fool to not run with the most broadly useful stuff all the time.

Niche abilities have limited use pretty much by definition. So yes, you run with the "broad load" most of the time and change it only if necessary. I don't see a problem with it since most builds work like that. Not to mention experienced players who knows where's what. On paper the swapping cost also further increases the INT importance for PSI users.

Instead of reducing tedium for AR/SMGs/etc they just INCREASED the tedium for other builds. Bloody idiotic.

Managing of all that is the part of the game, yes. You remind me of people were complaining about items weight and that's fucking ridiculous. Well, maybe they will add options for stuff that you consider tedious in their next game, we'll see.

I do not make exceptions for devs. You want to be treated with civility and respect? Then show it yourself.

Says the butthurt bitch who is annoyed by the fact that game isn't revolving around his specific preferences and rate everyone's post who disagreeing with him retarded :D

They are butthurt bitches which is why Dominatning was released as a big middle finger to some people telling them that hard was too easy. The rest is the usual drivel of a Styg cock sucker, in other words worthless.
I rate retarded because there is not anything else to rate a post like yours moronic/idiotic/braindead/etc.

Honestly, this is it. Unless someone could properly answer this, I really can't see any proper justifications for the new PSI system. Everyone else's seems to have completely lost hope for any plans to properly address these issues (and when I said 'these', I'm including the other rather questionable designs decisions like nerfing AR and later Spear Throw, etc etc) so now they just keep inhaling that copium.

Every build requires preparation. Choose your weapons, tools, armor, meds, grenades and whatever. This wasn't true for PSI. You just walk around in psi-beetle vest and carry around a bunch of blue potions.
Now PSIkers are required to prepare just like everybody else

Ah a build does not behave like others. Instead of finding something FUN we introduce mind numbing tedium and make already rarely used abilities nigh useless. Genius!

big middle finger how?

By introducing nothing but mindless obnoxious number bloat that breaks immersion instead of actually raising difficulty in an at least somewhat smart way.

 

[Black Angel]

Honestly, this is it. Unless someone could properly answer this, I really can't see any proper justifications for the new PSI system. Everyone else's seems to have completely lost hope for any plans to properly address these issues (and when I said 'these', I'm including the other rather questionable designs decisions like nerfing AR and later Spear Throw, etc etc) so now they just keep inhaling that copium.

Every build requires preparation. Choose your weapons, tools, armor, meds, grenades and whatever. This wasn't true for PSI. You just walk around in psi-beetle vest and carry around a bunch of blue potions.
Now PSIkers are required to prepare just like everybody else

They could've made it so you either (1) have a separate pool of resources which needs to be manually replenished every now and then (like the current psi reserves, akin to equipment durability), or (2) have slots for the spells so you don't have access to ALL of them at a time, like how you're limited to just 2 weapons in each hand/however many combat utilities ('nades, throwing knives, special bolts, etc etc) you can put in your belt, (3) made it so that investing in more than one psi skill resulted in some form of penalty to your performance, (4) nerf psi boosters, right at the beginning when taking The Pill™ the Doctor told us how psionics are prone to psi boosters/psi mushrooms addiction, and it leads to the existence of the Lunatics. But nowhere does this 'addiction' ever affected our character. There's the HP penalty, yes, but afaik that's the results of taking The Pill™ instead of training to awaken your psi powers like it normally should've been done in the setting.

They could've chose 1 of those instead, or maybe combine 2 with some more fine-tuning. But implementing ALL 3 at the same time seems like they just want to add unnecessary tedium to it. Hell, it's nowhere near close to a simple weapon reloading/battery recharging/equipment repairing, those can be done in a jiffy. Changing your innervation setups resulted in your ENTIRE psi reserves AND psi points exhausted, for whatever reason. Imagine your assault rifle's durability completely exhausted whenever you're reloading or changing your ammo type, that's just how dumb it is. I could understand if they impose some sort of cost for whenever changing your innervation setups, but having it emptied completely doesn't seem to make any fucking sense.

Hell, each of those design decision could be improved:

Spoiler

1. Having it so you draw from psi reserves to regenerates your psi points (either naturally or with boosters) is already an improvement in and of itself, so no comments here, except for the fact that changing your innervation setups completely exhausted all of your psi reserves AND points. This needs to either go away, or changed so that you only need to pay a specific amount of price, maybe even based on how much changes you're making to your current innervation. But, again, choosing one of this design decision instead of all of them would've improve Psi without adding more than necessary to the tedium.
2. Make it so you have 'general' slots for all spells, influenced by either WIL or INT. And then, have special slot(s) specifically made for a psi school, based on either how proficient a character is in that psi school or with a feat. This will help characters actually specialize in a specific psi skill instead of investing in them all and be an imba cave wiz, but without completely discouraging players from the niche spells because you simply have more rooms for experimentation with (theoretically) more slots.. They could even impose either some sort of psi cost/AP penalty/bonus to a spell innervated in a general slot or in a specialized slot, whichever works in practice, but not a global penalty that applies for whenever you're innervating spells from multiple psi school. Say, you get a slot specialized for Thought Control, so TC spells get a bonus of psi-cost/CD reduction when innervated into that slot, but if you really, REALLY want to innervate a Psychokinesis spell into that slot, you can, but you get psi-cost/CD penalty to the spell.
3. It seems they've applied the psi cost penalty to only when you're innervating psi from multiple school. You know what they could've done here instead? Do away with slots completely, but impose a general, global penalty for when you're investing in more than one psi skills. The feats like Psycho-neural Flexibility and Psycho-neural Optimization can still be applied, reducing the global penalty (or adds global bonus instead, as is the case with the latter). And/or if you have a disparity between one psi skill and the other, reduce the penalty to the psi skills with more points invested to it.
4. Nerf. Psi. Boosters. The fact that it has absolutely NO withdrawals at all, when psi drugs overdoses is one of the first things you're hearing from the NPCs when talking about Psi, is just weird. I realizes this is because there's no proper overdose mechanic a la Fallout's drug addiction, but you already have withdrawal debuffs to adrenaline shots, morphine shots, and even the Hercules drug, so why not put one to psi boosters in the first place? It's like you guys wrote that line about psi drug addiction/overdose, but completely forgot about it when working with the actual in-game items, or whichever came first. The nerfs could be, for example, a debuff, which as long as it's up, the amount of psi regenerated with subsequent boosters would be penalized; consuming certain amounts of boosters within specific time frame/turns resulted in the debuff either getting stronger, prolonged, or both; and assuming this nerf is applied while having psi reserves, allows usage of boosters to restore psi points but at the cost of HP instead (could even be tied with Hemopsychosis in some way).

Once again, my point is that each one of these are fine when implemented on its own, or you could do two of them at the same time but with some fine-tuning so you don't get some bullshit like completely exhausting ALL of not only your psi reserves but ALSO your psi points whenever you're changing your innervation setup. But having implemented ALL 3 of those at the same time, with the way they are, seems like only adding tedium for the sake of it. I don't know if you can call this a personal preference, but the way I see it, the best way for the new Psi system to come out would be with (1) keep the psi reserves, psi indeed needs some sort of global resources that needs to be manually replenished, like equipment durability, (2) keep either the slots OR the penalty, not both; the penalty itself is already fine on paper but could do with a couple of improvements like what I mentioned above, but with slots they need to consider the dumb reserves-points exhaustion for changing the innervation setups. By going either slots or penalty, but not both, the niche spells will have a chance, because with no slots but with penalty players can do as they've always done but this time they will need to watch out for suddenly running out of psi, while with slots (the way I proposed above) but no penalty there will be room for the niche spells since theoretically you can have more than the current 8 maximum slots, while also not discouraged by any kinds of penalty (except if placing certain spells in either the general or specialized slot, which could translates into bonuses instead of penalty). And finally (3) nerf. Psi. Boosters.

Spoiler

Did I just gave Styg some more ideas on how to 'balance' the game?

Niche abilities have limited use pretty much by definition. So yes, you run with the "broad load" most of the time and change it only if necessary. I don't see a problem with it since most builds work like that. Not to mention experienced players who knows where's what. On paper the swapping cost also further increases the INT importance for PSI users.

Except most builds didn't work like the current Psi. Like I said, imagine exhausting your entire assault rifle's durability for whenever you're reloading your ammos or changing your ammo types, that's how the current psi works for whenever you're changing your innervation setups (I'm pretty sure someone else already said this). Also, most builds could easily change their belt arrangement with whatever combat utilities they need ('nades, throwing knives, special bolts, cloaking devices etc etc), or put on specific headbands/armor-clothing/boots, or switch their weapons....at absolutely NO costs at all, AND they could do it in combat, with AP costs...which can be reduced with Quick Pockets (and further reduced with speccing into it). Not for psi with the current psi system, oh no. You CAN'T switch innervation setup in-combat, and when you get out of combat and do switch, you're exhausting ALL of your psi reserves and ALL of your psi points.

In what way are they comparable, except for the fact that now both of these builds (psi vs. non-psi) needs to take some extra steps before delving into the moment-to-moment combat gameplay?

Of course, it'd work if you just upped the ante on how many "powerful" abilities you could have. Like 8 maximum. Then you could have 4 "powerful" abilities and like 8 "weaker" abilities.

But that seems WAY overly complicated when could just up the number of slots period and do essentially the same thing without making it over-complicated.

Not that complicated, actually. Like I mentioned: offer more slots in a form "specialized" slots meant for a specific psi school with more points invested into it (or with a feat). Assuming they do away with the global psi-cost penalty when pursuing this route, they could then impose a penalty OR a bonus depending on which spell innervated into which slot (general or specialized), and also based on how proficient characters are in the psi school.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I just don't get where all the hate comes from.