Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Blaine]

Too late.

With that many poison traps and crawler caltrops deployed, my grandma's cane would be able to kill those pipeworkers. I ain't sold on jack shit. Literally any other ranged weapon would also kill them, and probably faster.

I played a Crossbows build many years ago, before they were buffed, and my biggest issue (other than shit armor penetration) was their Godawful accuracy. They have less optimal than an AR and no dedicated scope slot, unlike a sniper rifle—so if you use a scope, you get one other enhancement.

A dedicated scope slot would, all by itself, bring Crossbows up to par. There is also no reason not to have one other than game balance; I've used crossbows in real life, and all of them that are worth a damn have a scope attachment rail/hardpoint, which doesn't require sacrificing other components. Crossbows in Underrail are not good enough to be denied a scope slot for the sake of game balance, so there's absolutely no good reason for them not to have one.

Pretty much the entire justification for their reduced range, lower optimal, and no scope slot is that they can kill silently at range, and yet you will still end up in pitched battles on the regular, because they can't powernuke an entire small roomful of dudes like a silenced SMG can.

End of rant.

 

[Blaine]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot: Crossbows require you to use up your utility slots in order to shoot anything but basic bolts. This is quite a built-in disadvantage. You don't need another skill (such as Throwing) to use them, and they don't have inherent cooldowns, but you do need 2-3 feats to get the most out of them. It seems to me that their real purpose is to crowd you out of using grenades, in addition to devouring feats. Crossbows devour more feats than a sniper build, particularly if you want to maximize crits, but no crossbow bolt exists that can one-shot a tin can (including DOMINATING Balor, under the right conditions) from across the map.

In my opinion, the additional AP cost of special bolts should be removed entirely, and Marksman retooled for +10% additive crossbow accuracy. Its specialization would remain the same (up to +5% further additive accuracy).

It's good to know that bleed/poison crossbow builds can at least be viable. I may have to try one to really get a post-Expedition taste of Crossbows, so that I can bitch and complain about them with up-to-date knowledge.

 

[lukaszek]

With that many poison traps and crawler caltrops deployed, my grandma's cane would be able to kill those pipeworkers. I ain't sold on jack shit. Literally any other ranged weapon would also kill them, and probably faster.

you missed the part where enemy dies to single bear trap dipped in heart stopper poison, without further help. Id say its pretty huge

 

[ItsChon]

someone make me a high con build capable of doing damage and passing attribute checks

ItsChon

Too vague. What weapon do you want to use? Do you want to be ranged or up close and personal? And checks are largely based on skills. The attribute checks that are based on base stats are almost all agility/perception, which can be boosted, and the rest are relatively minor and can also be boosted.

last time I played underrail was not too long after release, I just want a build for dominating

The Sledgehammer Tank Build I posted earlier in the thread is a great build. You can do a tank Psion/AR/Psion + AR build if you want as well. I can't just give you a build without direction. Tell me what you want to use and I can post something.

 

[Blaine]

you missed the part where enemy dies to single bear trap dipped in heart stopper poison, without further help. Id say its pretty huge

It's no wonder that the best accompaniment to crossbows is a utility than can kill the enemy with absolutely no assistance from the crossbow whatsoever.

Don't let Styg see these videos, or every enemy will be carrying 2-3 antidotes.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

ItsChon Can you post that build? I'm rocking a Tin Can AR build right now. Haven't done a sledge hammer build since before Expedition.

 

[ItsChon]

ItsChon Can you post that build? I'm rocking a Tin Can AR build right now. Haven't done a sledge hammer build since before Expedition.

It's not a full Sledgehammer build, though I'm sure I could find/put something together for you if you wanted. I use Psionics to poke and deal with enemies long range, before smashing my sledgehammer into the face of those who come too close. When everyone is half health after walking through a hail of Psionics, it's easy to one shot people.

-snip-

-snip-

 

[Major_Blackhart]

They got snipped?

 

[Blaine]

They got snipped?

I don't know why he posted them that way rather than simply posting links, but just click the little hyperlink arrow: ↑

 

[ItsChon]

I wanted to quote myself, but I didn't want to clutter the thread with my large paragraphs, so I went ahead and just posted the links without all the text. Man has been on the forums for almost as long as I've been alive, so I figured he would know. Regardless, if you use it, lmk what you think Major_Blackhart

 

[Blaine]

Man has been on the forums for almost as long as I've been alive, so I figured he would know.

He spends about 90% of his Codex time cranking his hog to pics of trannies, and doesn't pay much attention to the technical particulars.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Not just trannies.

 

[Blaine]

Refurbished Steyr-Auch compared to q164 Chimera (no Gun Nut).

Analysis: Top-of-the-line damage, optimal range, and magazine capacity; middling burst precision, but coupled with good potshot precision; higher crit chance, lower crit damage bonus; higher mag capacity; and, importantly for many builds, only 5 STR.

Overall, it's top of the line.

Spoiler

Just don't compare its damage, optimal, and AP cost to that of a Super Scoped Cyclon, like I did, and then get pissed off about crossbows all over again.

 

[ciox]

It's nice how they keep squeezing real world parallels in there, a 9mm version of the Steyr Aug does exist, and its magazines come in 25 and 32 round variants, which is what you get in the game for the Steyr-Auch, in its basic and refurbished version respectively.

 

[Blaine]

It's nice how they keep squeezing real world parallels in there, a 9mm version of the Steyr Aug does exist, and its magazines come in 25 and 32 round variants, which is what you get in the game for the Steyr-Auch, in its basic and refurbished version respectively.

The Steyr AUG 9mm conversion fires 9x19mm Parabellum. Therefore, the Steyr-Auch fires 9x19mm Parallellum.

In all seriousness though, 9x19mm Parabellum is a pistol cartridge, and the Steyr AUG has what is called a "mid-length" 20-inch (50 cm) barrel, only a few inches more than the average carbine. It's generally referred to as a carbine.

I can't get an exact reading right now because I don't have the materials, but I'm going to put together a Super String q160+ Tornado at some point, and I absolutely assure you the damage per bolt will be no more than 25-30% higher than a single bullet fired from the Steyr-Auch, and with an additional 125% mech resistance penalty, as well as only 3/4 the optimal. Crossbows truly were designed to cause suffering in this game, by someone who has likely never laid hands on a crossbow.

Yes, the range even of 9mm Parabellum fired from a carbine is much greater than that of a broadhead bolt, but if ranges were actually realistic in this game, a novice would be able to fire a sniper rifle accurately from one corner of a screen in Foundry to the other. An expert would be able to fire a precision rifle accurately from one side of all of Foundry to the other.

Meanwhile, I challenge anyone to hunt a deer with potshots from a Steyr AUG 9mm conversion.

I just can't let it go. I don't want crossbows to be shit, it really annoys me.

 

[ciox]

It's nice how they keep squeezing real world parallels in there, a 9mm version of the Steyr Aug does exist, and its magazines come in 25 and 32 round variants, which is what you get in the game for the Steyr-Auch, in its basic and refurbished version respectively.

The Steyr AUG 9mm conversion fires 9x19mm Parabellum. Therefore, the Steyr-Auch fires 9x19mm Parallellum.

In all seriousness though, 9x19mm Parabellum is a pistol cartridge, and the Steyr AUG has what is called a "mid-length" 20-inch (50 cm) barrel, only a few inches more than the average carbine. It's generally referred to as a carbine.

I can't get an exact reading right now because I don't have the materials, but I'm going to put together a Super String q160+ Tornado at some point, and I absolutely assure you the damage per bolt will be no more than 25-30% higher than a single bullet fired from the Steyr-Auch, and with an additional 125% mech resistance penalty, as well as only 3/4 the optimal. Crossbows truly were designed to cause suffering in this game, by someone who has likely never laid hands on a crossbow.

Yes, the range even of 9mm Parabellum fired from a carbine is much greater than that of a broadhead bolt, but if ranges were actually realistic in this game, a novice would be able to fire a sniper rifle accurately from one corner of a screen in Foundry to the other. An expert would be able to fire a precision rifle accurately from one side of all of Foundry to the other.

Meanwhile, I challenge anyone to hunt a deer with potshots from a Steyr AUG 9mm conversion.

I just can't let it go. I don't want crossbows to be shit, it really annoys me.

You have to personally make up your mind whether the bullets in Underrail are all rifle caliber, or all pistol caliber, because it's not mentioned what they are, and they can't be both at once. At any rate I don't see how it changes much, it's still real world inspiration.

Crossbows are balanced around you firing a Shock Bolt MK3 with each shot, that's just how it is. Maybe later Infusion will take a different route with crossbow balance.

 

[Blaine]

You have to personally make up your mind whether the bullets in Underrail are all rifle caliber, or all pistol caliber, because it's not mentioned what they are, and they can't be both at once. At any rate I don't see how it changes much, it's still real world inspiration.

If they have to be one or the other, then I lean toward pistol-caliber by majority usage alone, because pistols are clearly all pistol-caliber, most if not all SMGs are pistol-caliber, and at least a few ARs are clearly pistol-caliber carbines. Only sniper rifles really break the mold, and 12.7mm is clearly rifle-caliber.

You don't really need to choose between one or the other, though. It can be treated as an economic/inventory abstraction that changes depending upon the weapon the ammo is actually loaded into.

In the case of the Steyr-Auch, it's definitely pistol-caliber 9mm.

Crossbows are balanced around you firing a Shock Bolt MK3 with each shot, that's just how it is. Maybe later Infusion will take a different route with crossbow balance.

That's retarded.

 

[Tygrende]

middling burst precision, but coupled with good potshot precision

"Precision: +x%" is global bonus that also affects burst precision, while "Burst precision: +x%" only affects bursts.

So the +10% precision and +10% burst precision adds up to +10% on normal shots and +20% on burst shots.

 

[Blaine]

"Precision: +x%" is global bonus that also affects burst precision, while "Burst precision: +x%" only affects bursts.

So the +10% precision and +10% burst precision adds up to +10% on normal shots and +20% on burst shots.

Makes sense. The Steyr-Auch truly is top-tier.

You miss out on +2 bullets per burst as well as RR + lower caliber + adrenaline/TM to squeeze in an extra burst or two, but the one or two bursts you do get are rock solid.

And sadly, the refurbished Steyr-Auch with nothing but Commando is far stronger and more long-ranged and accurate than anything that's possible with a crossbow, except for the grenade-replacement special bolts.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Back playing Tin Can AR in Expedition now. Got my freighter jet ski. Loving this game.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

Makes sense. The Steyr-Auch truly is top-tier.

You miss out on +2 bullets per burst as well as RR + lower caliber + adrenaline/TM to squeeze in an extra burst or two, but the one or two bursts you do get are rock solid.

If you think that's good check out the HK416. It does 20% less damage but it's only 12 ap and gets 3 extra burst shots. It's crazy. The only problem is you need to reload nonstop since you're spamming ten round bursts.

 

[Blaine]

If you think that's good check out the HK416. It does 20% less damage but it's only 12 ap and gets 3 extra burst shots. It's crazy. The only problem is you need to reload nonstop since you're spamming ten round bursts.

That is very nice. It's worth noting though that firing 60% more bullets at 20% less damage per is an overall 28% damage increase without Full Auto, while with Full Auto, you're firing 43% more bullets for about a 15% overall damage increase. That's before resistances, which might tend to lower these figures a bit more compared to higher-damage individual bullets; also, the power of W2C lessens based on caliber. Particularly after the W2C nerf, 5mm W2C stats vs 9mm W2C stats is a non-trivial consideration. This is especially true in Expedition: AKA Everything Has Armor, Fuck You.

So it's more damage, but not insanely more.

Still and all, it's more damage, a bit more crit chance, only 2 less optimal, cheaper ammo as well, and lower AP cost. It's further worth noting however that 12 is a very particular quantity of AP that triples up to 36, breaking what one might term the "70 barrier" and preventing you from throwing a grenade without an additional source of AP or from firing a second burst even with Adrenaline Shot, Contraction, or Blitz. That second burst requires Vitality Power or a combination of Adrenaline, Contraction, and/or Blitz to achieve a second 36 AP burst. There's also AP reservation to consider, though; could ease things a bit by the second round.

Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of everything you must juggle to fit shit into your available AP in Underrail. I'm very glad it's not a simplistic system, and requires build and itemization planning and preparation to get the most out of, but at the same time Styg's smug Serbian ass will do stuff like tack on an AP or two to "balance" shit (Spearhead going from 25 to 26 being the iconic example). The square-peg, round-hole nature of AP management does irk me from time to time.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

That is very nice. It's worth noting though that firing 60% more bullets at 20% less damage per is an overall 28% damage increase without Full Auto, while with Full Auto, you're firing 43% more bullets for about a 15% overall damage increase. That's before resistances, which might tend to lower these figures a bit more compared to higher-damage individual bullets; also, the power of W2C lessens based on caliber. Particularly after the W2C nerf, 5mm W2C stats vs 9mm W2C stats is a non-trivial consideration. This is especially true in Expedition: AKA Everything Has Armor, Fuck You.

So it's more damage, but not insanely more.

Still and all, it's more damage, a bit more crit chance, only 2 less optimal, cheaper ammo as well, and lower AP cost. It's further worth noting however that 12 is a very particular quantity of AP that triples up to 36, breaking what one might term the "70 barrier" and preventing you from throwing a grenade without an additional source of AP or from firing a second burst even with Adrenaline Shot, Contraction, or Blitz. That second burst requires Vitality Power or a combination of Adrenaline, Contraction, and/or Blitz to achieve a second 36 AP burst. There's also AP reservation to consider, though; could ease things a bit by the second round.

Fits perfectly if you have two points in commando spec and bullet strap belt. Adrenaline or contraction for +20 AP and the refund from commando mean you have 76 AP to play with. That's enough to burst twice (and then again with the commando free burst) and reload. You can also spec the feat that makes contraction stronger so it's +22 AP so you can burst twice without needing to kill something every round, though that doesn't cover reloading.
Also one other thing to consider is that HK416 stacks concentrated fire much more quickly, so it's actually better against really tough enemies. It's great at everything. Kinda funny, since before the update it used to be pretty pointless since the M16 was better and available earlier. Now it's been buffed into an absolute monster.

 

[Blaine]

Ah, yeah. The last time I played AR, Commando didn't have a specialization, because it was pre-Expedition.

The general takeaway here is that the Steyr-Auch is perfect for a sniper's sidearm with one or two feats and no specs invested, whereas the KH is great for a dedicated sprayer build. Also, a sniper will tend to have higher PER/Guns skill than an AR build, so the damage of those fewer rounds will be extra-premium.

 

[Blaine]

I deployed four sets of three fishing rods each (twelve total) in the three major pools and the innermost pool of the Siphoner Pools in the Black Sea.

Not only do pre-deployed fishing rods save you the hassle of deploying and dismantling rods, but they also allow you to fish stealthily, so that you don't have to shoot fifteen siphoners or seven psi beetles every time you want to go fishing.

Results of initial deployment:

Translated, that's key components for three doses of Third Eye, three Supersoldier Drugs, two vials of Regenerative Mixture, two doses of Bullhead, a vial of Black Dragon Poison, and various fodder for Super Health Hypos (of which Crawler Poison is the real gatekeeper), mass quantities of Jumping Beans, and also some shit no one cares about.

Of course, for Merry Meandering Merchants such as myself, the pentapus is the real MVP, because every single one represents a Psionic Reinvigorator, AKA the best way to extract significant amounts of charons from medical vendors.