World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Wesp5]

Why do air vents get a free pass to make no sense?

I would guess because Deus Ex made them popular and Deus Ex was over-hyped a lot. I personally would rather see more wooden doors that can be broken or shot down (which Deus Ex did as well) or even breakable walls Red Faction 1 style.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I still advocate for magic portals if it's not required to make sense

 

[ERYFKRAD]

The stairways I use in real life don't have people trying to shoot me on them.

If they did, would your first thought be to climb 30 feet straight up in a 6" air vent instead?

They would not shoot you in there you grot.

 

[Ol' Willy]

I would guess because Deus Ex made them popular and Deus Ex was over-hyped a lot.

 

[DeepOcean]

Also, this "video game logic is bad" argument, if you actually take it to its logical conclusion, no stealth game should ever be made because no game follow real world logic 100% of the time and for good reason. Dungeons dont make sense, winning fights while heavily outnumbered on RPGs dont make sense, a guard forgetting your presence after detecting you also doesnt make sense, you surviving gun shots with just first aid medical kits doesnt make sense , actually, I would arrive the conclusion that videogames are a mistake.

Also, there is a binary notion that something must be 100% realist or 100% unrealistic and if you accept some unrealistic concepts, you must accept magic portals and shit like that (actually magic portals would make total sense depending on the setting) but the question is, all games, at some point, sacrifice realism and depends of the fiction you are trying to sell on your game. Magic portals dont make sense on Deus Ex world because such things cant be explained in fiction with that level of technology and in the end, what matters isnt if a game is realistic but if it keeps in fiction.

This is a weaker argument specially on Bloodlines 2 where you were supposedly be able to turn on mist.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Also, this "video game logic is bad" argument, if you actually take it to its logical conclusion, no stealth game should ever be made because no game follow real world logic 100% of the time and for good reason. Dungeons dont make sense, winning fights while heavily outnumbered on RPGs dont make sense, a guard forgetting your presence after detecting you also doesnt make sense, you surviving gun shots with just first aid medical kits doesnt make sense , actually, I would arrive the conclusion that videogames are a mistake.

Also, there is a binary notion that something must be 100% realist or 100% unrealistic and if you accept some unrealistic concepts, you must accept magic portals and shit like that (actually magic portals would make total sense depending on the setting) but the question is, all games, at some point, sacrifice realism and depends of the fiction you are trying to sell on your game. Magic portals dont make sense on Deus Ex world because such things cant be explained in fiction with that level of technology and in the end, what matters isnt if a game is realistic but if it keeps in fiction.

This is a weaker argument specially on Bloodlines 2 where you were supposedly be able to turn on mist.

I see you have joined the magic portal side

 

[Ninjerk]

Also, this "video game logic is bad" argument, if you actually take it to its logical conclusion, no stealth game should ever be made because no game follow real world logic 100% of the time and for good reason. Dungeons dont make sense, winning fights while heavily outnumbered on RPGs dont make sense, a guard forgetting your presence after detecting you also doesnt make sense, you surviving gun shots with just first aid medical kits doesnt make sense , actually, I would arrive the conclusion that videogames are a mistake.

Also, there is a binary notion that something must be 100% realist or 100% unrealistic and if you accept some unrealistic concepts, you must accept magic portals and shit like that (actually magic portals would make total sense depending on the setting) but the question is, all games, at some point, sacrifice realism and depends of the fiction you are trying to sell on your game. Magic portals dont make sense on Deus Ex world because such things cant be explained in fiction with that level of technology and in the end, what matters isnt if a game is realistic but if it keeps in fiction.

This is a weaker argument specially on Bloodlines 2 where you were supposedly be able to turn on mist.

Don't forget arbitrarily-sized levels. If you don't model the entire planet it's vIdEo GaMe lOgIc.

 

[Zombra]

This "video game logic is bad" argument, if you actually take it to its logical conclusion, [is no good]

Note that I completely agree here, and no one is arguing against video game logic in general. Some level of handwaving, suspension of disbelief etc. is to be expected and I have no problem with that.

This brings me back to the original point: why air vents? What hypnotic property do they possess that makes so many designers say, "Well, if it's not going to make any fucking sense anyway, it should be an air vent!"

I am so goddamn sick of them. There's no justification for their inclusion in so many games. They are massively overused to the point that no one even notices their existence or how stupid they are any more ... but I notice. Something that should be a desperate, dramatic, and rare decision for a protagonist to make has become as routine and commonplace as driving to the grocery store. Vents are a nonsense trope in gaming, they're practically a fucking meme. They're trite, and for something so nonsensical to be so trite, and to so confidently expect me to expend any of the remaining hours of my life on them, is pathetic.

 

[Latelistener]

Why? Why does logic and reason have to apply to halls but not to vents?

Because vents are small and less intrusive. If you try to add additional halls and corridors you will most likely ruin a level. It will raise more questions than a simple vent (which logically can be there, but maybe not exactly man-sized and not so conveniently placed).

Again, there is absolutely no justification for this. Do enemies not have thumbs? Are they blind? Just stupid? It's fine for the player to be able to trick enemies, but nothing, nothing at all about air vents makes this make more sense than "a hallway where I don't like to go".

It's a tool for the player. There is no logical justification beyond a design choice and I don't think there needs to be as long it keeps a suspension of disbelief.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Why do air vents get a free pass to make no sense? Why not make enemies averse to hallways with blue walls if it serves the same gameplay function? Why not give the player a teleporting unicorn as a sidekick?

You can add a teleporting unicorn. It's your choice as long as it works. Dishonored didn't have normal vents, but smaller ones which could only be traversed using creatures. Maybe that will suffice for you, but I don't actually know what was your problem.

From what I understand you don't like that it is an overused concept and even if it will be logically justifiable you still won't like it. So I don't think that there is a solution for you. Because you can always nitpick something from a game saying that it's not realistic. In my opinion, games don't have to be that way (unless it's a simulator of course).

 

[Zombra]

Suspension of disbelief.

This is a good point and a big deal. One air vent in one game, for the protag to escape one bad situation barely strains my disbelief at all; in fact it could be a good and dramatic device if used once. A whole game where a guy uses air vents a lot, okay, maybe he's a weird ninja guy and maybe in this one setting air vents are designed in a really dumb way. (Yes, I liked Die Hard!) I can take it for a while, but every fucking protag in every first-person environment? I can't not see it any more, and there aren't enough steel beams on earth to keep my disbelief suspended. To mix a metaphor, the camel's back broke a long time ago.

I don't think that there is a solution for you.

The solution is for "creative" people to earn their pay, and stop returning again and again to the same stagnant well.

 

[Latelistener]

On a totally unrelated note, maybe it's a good thing that Paradox got a money sink. Maybe I could finally get a decent discount on some DLCs for Cities: Skyline and CKII.

 

[Nutria]

no stealth game should ever be made because no game follow real world logic 100% of the time and for good reason

If you ever look at what snipers actually do in real life, it involves stuff like crawling on their belly for 12 hours to get a chance to shoot one guy. There are huge goddamn compromises that you have to make in any game.

It reminds me of something a physicist said when he was asked if he was pissed off when something on Star Trek wasn't scientifically accurate and he said he was just happy when they do actually get it right.

 

[Alienman]

How about sewers?

 

[vortex]

This brings me back to the original point: why air vents? What hypnotic property do they possess that makes so many designers say, "Well, if it's not going to make any fucking sense anyway, it should be an air vent!"

I am so goddamn sick of them. There's no justification for their inclusion in so many games. They are massively overused to the point that no one even notices their existence or how stupid they are any more ... but I notice. Something that should be a desperate, dramatic, and rare decision for a protagonist to make has become as routine and commonplace as driving to the grocery store. Vents are a nonsense trope in gaming, they're practically a fucking meme. They're trite, and for something so nonsensical to be so trite, and to so confidently expect me to expend any of the remaining hours of my life on them, is pathetic.

Nice venting-off you did there. (pun intended) You answered for yourself. Vents give you relieve and shortcut to tedious routes you have to assess regularly in the game.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I suggest being able to dive between toilets as an alternative

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

With the Camarilla mod I just snuck my way through most places in plain sight as a Ventrue. I just waltz through crippling mortal minds as I came and went. Problem with a door? gIvE ME yoUr KeyS PeASanT. Master thief and infiltrator.

 

[Bad Sector]

why air vents? [...] They are massively overused to the point that no one even notices their existence

I think you basically answered it for yourself - nobody (or well, very few people) notice anything wrong while pretty much everyone (or well, most people - or at least most who have already played a game) know their use - similar to how you expect red barrels to explode when you shoot them, transparent vials with red liquids (in fantasy) or boxes with red/green crosses (in modern settings) to replenish health (...which itself is a completely nonsensical action), etc.

I mean, why are the vials always transparent and why is the liquid always red? Why vials in the first place instead of something that has a lesser chance to break? You can certainly find excuses for those but the real reason is that this sort of image has become a convention that everyone understands without needing any sort of detailed explanation: the moment you pick up a vial with red liquid in a modern game you know what it is supposed to be.

Similarly with vents: when you see a vent in a game that you can enter, you immediately know you have additional options for traversing the level as well as a general idea of what can and cannot be done with them (e.g. NPCs can rarely enter them, monsters tend to avoid them with sometimes the exception of small ones, can be used as points from where you can listen discussions or watch patrol routes, etc) without needing any further explanations.

 

[J1M]

But was it an actual, objective nightmare, or mere lack of imagination on the level designers' part?

Of course I don't know, but I have seen the tutorial in which they provided all three ways inside a burning building which was already kind of a stretch and I know from working on the Prelude mod that sometimes you have to bend your imagination a lot to make even the usual ways like talking or sneaking fit the story. In that regard I believe that a cool narrative would make the whole thing even more difficult...

Or we could return to a time when every map did not need to explicitly support every gameplay style.

 

[Eli_Havelock]

The trope of vents has gotten stale and needs a bit of a redesign, even with vampire fart mode as presented. Add some excitement to them.

Quick dodge into a hallway wall vent... OOPS, that just goes to the laundry chute or incinerator! (Maybe you should have read the sign next to it.)

No absolutely safe hiding holes:



Maybe something living in it or a countermeasure for critters crawling around in it:



Entering/exiting should take a bit of time to access/disable the security measures - bypassing which would be a valid application of vampire fart mode as an alternate solve beside tech/lockpicking/force.

 

[Ismaul]

Enemy AI usually can't use it

Which is dumb. These vents are always huge, convenient, blindingly obvious and easy to traverse. Why should they be a safe space for the protag? Why does everyone in the world except the player character have to carry an Idiot Ball the size of a watermelon? Why not simply have hallways where the enemy doesn't like to go?

If you want vents that enemies can use, then play horror games. It's the Deus Ex formula reversed, players can't even access them. They're enemy spawn points. Scary stuff.

Otherwise if both players and NPCs could use vents, what would be the point? You'd just get vent fights, which are basically corridor fights but super cramped, with shitty gameplay, basically press E to kick with your foot QTEs.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

transparent vials with red liquids (in fantasy) or boxes with red/green crosses (in modern settings) to replenish health

Healing potions, if they have a standard color, are blue.

 

[DeepOcean]

How about sewers?

Now, sewers, those abominations should ever be in video games.

 

[Eli_Havelock]

If you want vents that enemies can use, then play horror games. It's the Deus Ex formula reversed, players can't even access them. They're enemy spawn points. Scary stuff.

Otherwise if both players and NPCs could use vents, what would be the point? You'd just get vent fights, which are basically corridor fights but super cramped, with shitty gameplay, basically press E to kick with your foot QTEs.

Good use for a flamethrower. Save for use against vampires or to use in ventspace against, say, a swarm of rats.

 

[Ninjerk]

Zombra's nightmare:

Spoiler

 

[Tao]

If i remember right in Underrail vents could have enemies and/or traps (i should play again now with the expansion).