World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[J1M]

if it's just about variety and throwing realism out the window then you might as well add magic portals and hand-dug tunnels

Semi realistic destructible environments would be nice. Most walls in a real building could be plowed through by any character with augmented strength. Noisy though.

Might be interesting if the alternative traversal wasn't the stealthy option for once, and stealth was more about blending in, tailgating, etc.

you should probably play the new deus ex games

I have. I am talking about something more in line with what Red Faction did, but for interiors. Not a couple of walls marked as shortcuts.

 

[Zombra]

Normal doors and hallways.

But the point is to provide an alternative path to those.

That's the thing. A vent IS just another hallway, except with this inane conceit that it's different. "Door or vent" is no different from "door #1 or door #2", except that in the first case one of the doors is in a very stupid wrapper.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

vent is just a hallway that only players can use and enemies can't

 

[DeepOcean]

Normal doors and hallways.

But the point is to provide an alternative path to those.

Not only an alternative path but also a different path, I really liked how, if you got inside some ruined abandoned hobo dwelling on Battery Park, you end on an maze of vents which you have no idea where you are going then just end right on the metro station where the terrorists were barricated and you could see them from multiple angles, from multiple vent entrances to plan an approach. I just got my gas grenades, because if I used real grenades, the explosives would kill the civilians, while they were choking, I finished them off with a pistol.

Because there were vents in there:
A: I was surprised and intrigued of seeing a random vent hidden inside of a hobo hut-> B: I was curious to know where this maze would lead -> I was surprised when I found myself right literally behind the feet of the terrorists-> it offered an alternative approach to just going on the front door.

Also vents provide a nice way to turn back in panic mode when a guard is about to enter the room you are so you can use them strategically to learn the patrol routines of the guards from multiple angles without too much danger. The less popamole powers to see through walls and all that bs, the more you need them to actually plan your moves.

Losing all that gameplay because vents arent "realistic" seems a really bad trade off.

Also there are terrible ways to use vents:
Nu-Deus Exes
A: Oh I've seen a vent -> B: I just found the "stealth" path of the mission
Another version of awful:
A: There is a door here->B: Wait a minute, the vent entrance is right outside the door and the exit is right on the other side of the door, are they doing a prank with me?

 

[DeepOcean]

vent is just a hallway that only players can use and enemies can't

That is kinda the point, one of the worst problems on stealth games that arent shadow based is how to present the guard you need to avoid before he actually detect you? Also, how you can study his whole movement patrol and plan for it if you cant see his whole patrol route.

Without vents or something to do their job, you have a problem, you see a guard on a corridor turn but you have no way of knowing where he goes when he disappears on the corridor, you dont have any way to know if there is another guard over there, without vents or something that do their job (Dishonored has disguised vents with chandelliers, suspended railings and etc), those types of stealh games can be alot more dependent of trial and error that is already a big problem on stealth games. They are a clever solution to present the guards that you need to avoid without them detecting you right away. Also, they offer verticality in movement, what doors cant do.

 

[Semiurge]

You are right that the Bloodlines 2 method shown was kind of a shortcut of the usual vent crawling, but from a mapping point of view it is similar. Like you always have to design the maps to make these alternate ways possible! Some time ago Paradox announced that the player would be able to use all three of the traversal disciplines because they noticed that it would be impossible to implement three different ways into all maps. A first sign that HSL was clearly over their head...

What happened to alternate ways within alternate ways, such as vent mazes? They shouldn't be just a path from point A to point B, with a blackout or a short cutscene in between.

Also, having had all three powerful, potentially immersion breaking disciplines would've meant only one thing - they would've most likely been context dependent. Even if their use had been totally free, they wouldn't have actually accomplished anything meaningful outside certain "setpieces". A rough equivalent of this would be a main character who is supposed to be able to turn into a dragon in a game that has a configurable button for "dragon form". Yet when you keep pressing the button in that game, nothing happens until some character has shouted in your ear, "Use your dragon form, NOW!". Absolutely lame.

Yeah, very likely. Plus, there's a whole lot of them, suspiciously Denton-sized, and remarkably bulletproof. But, you know, yippee ki-yay, motherfucker.

System Shock had crawlspaces that you could barely fit in if you lay prone. If such an ability was implemented anywhere, it should have both advantages as well as disadvantages. SS unfortunately had neither. The former could be making less noise and being able to squeeze into smaller ducts, while the latter could be extremely slow movement, being vulnerable to attacks from behind and not being able to use all, if any, weapons to attack enemies in front of you.

turn into mist
go into enemy asshole
turn back

Turn to mist next to a vaping hipster -> get inhaled -> turn back.

Personally I was afraid that the game's design would be formulaic. Going through the vents as mist is one of the three basic abilities you got in Hardsuit's BL2. All three of which were related to exploration. Telekinesis let you open doors, turning into a bat let you glide over a long gap and becoming a mist was for vents. If it turned out that every single level from then on would have 1 door, 1 gap and 1 vent. Well, that would feel kinda shitty wunnit?

Telekinesis to open doors? What happened to good ol' lockpicking? Or would that only involve doors that are jammed or those that can't be picked?

 

[True Ukrainian]

vent is just a hallway that only players can use and enemies can't

That is kinda the point, one of the worst problems on stealth games that arent shadow based is how to present the guard you need to avoid before he actually detect you? Also, how you can study his whole movement patrol and plan for it if you cant see his whole patrol route.

Without vents or something to do their job, you have a problem, you see a guard on a corridor turn but you have no way of knowing where he goes when he disappears on the corridor, you dont have any way to know if there is another guard over there, without vents or something that do their job (Dishonored has disguised vents with chandelliers, suspended railings and etc), those types of stealh games can be alot more dependent of trial and error that is already a big problem on stealth games. They are a clever solution to present the guards that you need to avoid without them detecting you right away. Also, they offer verticality in movement, what doors cant do.

There is social stealth like what the Hitman series uses. Hiding in plain sight, using disguises and generally acting in a way that doesn't get guards to immediately start shooting when you trespass.

 

[Eli_Havelock]

vent is just a hallway that only players can use and enemies can't

That is kinda the point, one of the worst problems on stealth games that arent shadow based is how to present the guard you need to avoid before he actually detect you? Also, how you can study his whole movement patrol and plan for it if you cant see his whole patrol route.

Without vents or something to do their job, you have a problem, you see a guard on a corridor turn but you have no way of knowing where he goes when he disappears on the corridor, you dont have any way to know if there is another guard over there, without vents or something that do their job (Dishonored has disguised vents with chandelliers, suspended railings and etc), those types of stealh games can be alot more dependent of trial and error that is already a big problem on stealth games. They are a clever solution to present the guards that you need to avoid without them detecting you right away. Also, they offer verticality in movement, what doors cant do.

There is also that thing Thief invented about 23 years ago, listening for where enemies are at with added challenge when they are motionless, unseen, or on softer surfaces.
To build upon that, developers have a wide variety of possibilities available with all these blood powers and technology at their disposal to create an in-universe enhancement.

It seems to have gotten to the point that vents are basically used for easily bypassing _____, listening into a convenient scenery buffet between mooks and a big bad about The Plan or Critical Weakness near a handy grating, and finding hidden items/locations. So if there's an air vent you'd better take it or miss out.

 

[DeepOcean]

vent is just a hallway that only players can use and enemies can't

That is kinda the point, one of the worst problems on stealth games that arent shadow based is how to present the guard you need to avoid before he actually detect you? Also, how you can study his whole movement patrol and plan for it if you cant see his whole patrol route.

Without vents or something to do their job, you have a problem, you see a guard on a corridor turn but you have no way of knowing where he goes when he disappears on the corridor, you dont have any way to know if there is another guard over there, without vents or something that do their job (Dishonored has disguised vents with chandelliers, suspended railings and etc), those types of stealh games can be alot more dependent of trial and error that is already a big problem on stealth games. They are a clever solution to present the guards that you need to avoid without them detecting you right away. Also, they offer verticality in movement, what doors cant do.

There is social stealth like what the Hitman series uses. Hiding in plain sight, using disguises and generally acting in a way that doesn't get guards to immediately start shooting when you trespass.

Yes but you need to build a whole set of systems to support that and make it interesting and it maybe is to ask a bit too much to implement that on a regular stealth game, I would argue that Hitman is more of a sandbox puzzle game than a "true" stealth game because the game is more about having fun doing different kinds of assassinations than actually playing like a straight stealth game.

 

[Zombra]

I was thinking of mentioning the Hitman games. Social stealth provides all the same benefits with the additional feature of not being idiotic.

 

[True Ukrainian]

vent is just a hallway that only players can use and enemies can't

That is kinda the point, one of the worst problems on stealth games that arent shadow based is how to present the guard you need to avoid before he actually detect you? Also, how you can study his whole movement patrol and plan for it if you cant see his whole patrol route.

Without vents or something to do their job, you have a problem, you see a guard on a corridor turn but you have no way of knowing where he goes when he disappears on the corridor, you dont have any way to know if there is another guard over there, without vents or something that do their job (Dishonored has disguised vents with chandelliers, suspended railings and etc), those types of stealh games can be alot more dependent of trial and error that is already a big problem on stealth games. They are a clever solution to present the guards that you need to avoid without them detecting you right away. Also, they offer verticality in movement, what doors cant do.

There is social stealth like what the Hitman series uses. Hiding in plain sight, using disguises and generally acting in a way that doesn't get guards to immediately start shooting when you trespass.

Yes but you need to build a whole set of systems to support that and make it interesting and it maybe is to ask a bit too much to implement that on a regular stealth game, I would argue that Hitman is more of a sandbox puzzle game than a "true" stealth game because the game is more about having fun doing different kinds of assassinations than actually playing like a straight stealth game.

For BL2 its actually less work, because many disciplines already play into the social stealth angle. Dominate and Presence allow you to talk past guards. Obfuscate lets you walk right past them. Auspex lets you sense guard positions and patrol routres. And if all fails, Potence allows you to force open doors and you can evade guards using celerity.

 

[Eli_Havelock]

For BL2 its actually less work, because many disciplines already play into the social stealth angle. Dominate and Presence allow you to talk past guards. Obfuscate lets you walk right past them. Auspex lets you sense guard positions and patrol routres. And if all fails, Potence allows you to force open doors and you can evade guards using celerity.

It's almost as if there was an entire game system already written for that kind of thing...

 

[Tacgnol]

vent is just a hallway that only players can use and enemies can't

That is kinda the point, one of the worst problems on stealth games that arent shadow based is how to present the guard you need to avoid before he actually detect you? Also, how you can study his whole movement patrol and plan for it if you cant see his whole patrol route.

Without vents or something to do their job, you have a problem, you see a guard on a corridor turn but you have no way of knowing where he goes when he disappears on the corridor, you dont have any way to know if there is another guard over there, without vents or something that do their job (Dishonored has disguised vents with chandelliers, suspended railings and etc), those types of stealh games can be alot more dependent of trial and error that is already a big problem on stealth games. They are a clever solution to present the guards that you need to avoid without them detecting you right away. Also, they offer verticality in movement, what doors cant do.

There is social stealth like what the Hitman series uses. Hiding in plain sight, using disguises and generally acting in a way that doesn't get guards to immediately start shooting when you trespass.

Yes but you need to build a whole set of systems to support that and make it interesting and it maybe is to ask a bit too much to implement that on a regular stealth game, I would argue that Hitman is more of a sandbox puzzle game than a "true" stealth game because the game is more about having fun doing different kinds of assassinations than actually playing like a straight stealth game.

I do agree with your point, but to be fair, you can play the Hitman games as straight stealth games without using disguises (and other stuff), but it's quite underdeveloped and boring compared to the social stealth mechanics.

 

[Storyfag]

vent is just a hallway that only players can use and enemies can't

That is kinda the point, one of the worst problems on stealth games that arent shadow based is how to present the guard you need to avoid before he actually detect you? Also, how you can study his whole movement patrol and plan for it if you cant see his whole patrol route.

Auspex?

 

[Wesp5]

For BL2 its actually less work, because many disciplines already play into the social stealth angle. Dominate and Presence allow you to talk past guards. Obfuscate lets you walk right past them. Auspex lets you sense guard positions and patrol routres. And if all fails, Potence allows you to force open doors and you can evade guards using celerity.

Exactly, there was no need at all for new traversal disciplines. Don't forget you have lockpicking and hacking too which can open doors! I imagine the idea looked good on paper, but turned out to be a nightmare to implement into the maps. Speaking of alternatives, one of the best examples is the beachhouse map in Bloodlines 1. And no vents involved except for finding some bonus money .

 

[Storyfag]

For BL2 its actually less work, because many disciplines already play into the social stealth angle. Dominate and Presence allow you to talk past guards. Obfuscate lets you walk right past them. Auspex lets you sense guard positions and patrol routres. And if all fails, Potence allows you to force open doors and you can evade guards using celerity.

Exactly, there was no need at all for new traversal disciplines. Don't forget you have lockpicking and hacking too which can open doors! I imagine the idea looked good on paper, but turned out to be a nightmare to implement into the maps.

But was it an actual, objective nightmare, or mere lack of imagination on the level designers' part?

 

[Ol' Willy]

I do agree with your point, but to be fair, you can play the Hitman games as straight stealth games without using disguises (and other stuff), but it's quite underdeveloped and boring compared to the social stealth mechanics.

"No disguise" speedruns are quite entertaining, though; especially those by CJ and Kotti

 

[Wesp5]

But was it an actual, objective nightmare, or mere lack of imagination on the level designers' part?

Of course I don't know, but I have seen the tutorial in which they provided all three ways inside a burning building which was already kind of a stretch and I know from working on the Prelude mod that sometimes you have to bend your imagination a lot to make even the usual ways like talking or sneaking fit the story. In that regard I believe that a cool narrative would make the whole thing even more difficult...

 

[Latelistener]

Normal doors and hallways.

But the point is to provide an alternative path to those.

That's the thing. A vent IS just another hallway, except with this inane conceit that it's different. "Door or vent" is no different from "door #1 or door #2", except that in the first case one of the doors is in a very stupid wrapper.

Well, no? It has a completely different purpose from a game design standpoint compared to a door.

Enemy AI usually can't use it, plus it can connect multiple levels or rooms, sometimes vertically.

 

[Zombra]

Enemy AI usually can't use it

Which is dumb. These vents are always huge, convenient, blindingly obvious and easy to traverse. Why should they be a safe space for the protag? Why does everyone in the world except the player character have to carry an Idiot Ball the size of a watermelon? Why not simply have hallways where the enemy doesn't like to go?

plus it can connect multiple levels or rooms, sometimes vertically.

You're describing hallways and ladders.

And another thing. "Vents provide verticality" has been said by more than one person. Why the fuck?? Because climbing up the inside of a featureless, claustrophobic metal tube not designed for human traversal is somehow easier than walking up some fucking stairs? You shouldn't be able to turn around in an air vent, much less move effortlessly on any axis, yet somehow this is the most convenient way to move between floors. If this made any fucking sense, people would be doing it every day in real life. But it doesn't make sense; it's "just how video games are", i.e. insultingly dumb.

 

[Latelistener]

Why not simply have hallways where the enemy doesn't like to go?

Imagine a game full of weird hallways where the enemy AI doesn't like to go. This will not sit well and there will be always another person who will say that it "isn't realistic".

You will also have to maintain an integrity from an architectural standpoint. You can't create too many corridors just for the sake of adding an alternative path. While everyone knows that vents have to be there and you can do whatever you want with them. Yes, sometimes they are placed in strange places, but it isn't a requirement.

You're describing hallways and ladders.

But the enemy AI can use ladders and hallways. That's the point. You can traverse (sometimes vertically) via an alternative path (sometimes a shortcut) unavailable to AI.

Overall, bringing a real life logic into a game usually doesn't always work.

 

[Ninjerk]

Enemy AI usually can't use it

Which is dumb. These vents are always huge, convenient, blindingly obvious and easy to traverse. Why should they be a safe space for the protag? Why does everyone in the world except the player character have to carry an Idiot Ball the size of a watermelon? Why not simply have hallways where the enemy doesn't like to go?

plus it can connect multiple levels or rooms, sometimes vertically.

You're describing hallways and ladders.

And another thing. "Vents provide verticality" has been said by more than one person. Why the fuck?? Because climbing up the inside of a featureless, claustrophobic metal tube not designed for human traversal is somehow easier than walking up some fucking stairs? You shouldn't be able to turn around in an air vent, much less move effortlessly on any axis, yet somehow this is the most convenient way to move between floors. If this made any fucking sense, people would be doing it every day in real life. But it doesn't make sense; it's "just how video games are", i.e. insultingly dumb.

The stairways I use in real life don't have people trying to shoot me on them. You really do a disservice to your own, originally quite reasonable, arguments, and you do this all the time. It's exhausting just to read.

 

[Zombra]

Why not simply have hallways where the enemy doesn't like to go?

Imagine a game full of weird hallways where the enemy AI doesn't like to go. This will not sit well and there will be always another person who will say that it "isn't realistic".

Of course that would be dumb. That's what I'm saying. Writing "air vent" on it doesn't make it not dumb.

You will also have to maintain an integrity from an architectural standpoint. You can't create too many corridors just for the sake of adding an alternative path.

Why? Why does logic and reason have to apply to halls but not to vents?

While everyone knows that vents have to be there and you can do whatever you want with them.

lol. This is excruciatingly feeble. "Everyone knows" that man-sized vents that are invisible to everyone but the player are reasonable and logical? No. No one "knows" that except gamers. Again: "it's a thing because it's a thing" is not acceptable.

But the enemy AI can use ladders and hallways. That's the point. You can traverse (sometimes vertically) via an alternative path (sometimes a shortcut) unavailable to AI.

Again, there is absolutely no justification for this. Do enemies not have thumbs? Are they blind? Just stupid? It's fine for the player to be able to trick enemies, but nothing, nothing at all about air vents makes this make more sense than "a hallway where I don't like to go".

Overall, bringing a real life logic into a game usually doesn't always work.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Why do air vents get a free pass to make no sense? Why not make enemies averse to hallways with blue walls if it serves the same gameplay function? Why not give the player a teleporting unicorn as a sidekick?

 

[Zombra]

The stairways I use in real life don't have people trying to shoot me on them.

If they did, would your first thought be to climb 30 feet straight up in a 6" air vent instead?

 

[Ninjerk]

The stairways I use in real life don't have people trying to shoot me on them.

If they did, would your first thought be to climb 30 feet straight up in a 6" air vent instead?

No, I'd go 60 feet in a 3" vent.