World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Tyranicon]

Why is writing so hard? What makes it such an impossibly difficult thing to do?

Like real talk, you have a reasonably talented person, you make them read a few books in a certain genre, take a few writing classes/workshops maybe, and ta-dah! You have a reasonably competent writer in the genre of their preference.

But in real life, you do all that and they just write about their weird sock fetish for 40 pages, put in a bunch of author avatar/political soapboxing bullshit, and gets fired.

Quality writers are so much more rare than their counterparts in art, music, etc. And as a career writer, I really have no idea why.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Why is writing so hard? What makes it such an impossibly difficult thing to do?

Like real talk, you have a reasonably talented person, you make them read a few books in a certain genre, take a few writing classes/workshops maybe, and ta-dah! You have a reasonably competent writer in the genre of their preference.

But in real life, you do all that and they just write about their weird sock fetish for 40 pages, put in a bunch of author avatar/political soapboxing bullshit, and gets fired.

Quality writers are so much more rare than their counterparts in art, music, etc. And as a career writer, I really have no idea why.

Writers ought to know more about the world than just writing.

 

[santino27]

Why is writing so hard? What makes it such an impossibly difficult thing to do?

Like real talk, you have a reasonably talented person, you make them read a few books in a certain genre, take a few writing classes/workshops maybe, and ta-dah! You have a reasonably competent writer in the genre of their preference.

But in real life, you do all that and they just write about their weird sock fetish for 40 pages, put in a bunch of author avatar/political soapboxing bullshit, and gets fired.

Quality writers are so much more rare than their counterparts in art, music, etc. And as a career writer, I really have no idea why.

Writers ought to know more about the world than just writing.

Yeah. Life experience matters for writing. Not just in the tired old 'write what you know' meaning, but because you have to have experienced different perspectives and viewpoints and seen the world from outside of your bubble in order to be able to capture more than a single voice that is slightly adjusted for every character.
Secondly, the modern world does a horrific job of teaching writers how to write quality prose. Language as a whole is murdered every moment on the internet, and people either unconsciously ape that or react against it with what they feel is eloquence and is frequently self-indulgent, pseuod poetic, purple prose.
Thirdly, I think self-analysis and self-criticism, both vital in quality writing, are skills that have been largely trained out of the younger generations, and that means they are deeply reliant on developmental, copy, and line editors, all of whom likely ALSO suck at their jobs for similar reasons.

That's my best guess anyway.

 

[Tyranicon]

There could be an argument that in the internet age, writers have less hands-on life experience than previous generations... but I think ultimately my question is masturbatory, lotus-eating style contemplation.

The factors that prohibit good writers from the games industry are numerous. Perhaps the most important one is that good writing is not appreciated when selling a product where the writing matters for very little.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

There's also the possibility that hewing closer to the principles of a game(freedom of action, c&c, accounting for the unexpected) requires a flexibility that might not be natural to a writer whose experience is largely in writing linear plots.

 

[Demo.Graph]

There's also the possibility that hewing closer to the principles of a game(freedom of action, c&c, accounting for the unexpected) requires a flexibility that might not be natural to a writer whose experience is largely in writing linear plots.

Professional writers are able to overcome this.
There was a series of Russian games about WW2 with plot written by a duo of professional scifi writers (Zorich). I remember them whining about devs constantly changing campaign structure in mid-development, breaking all internal plots several times. They had still managed to write a quite coherent script.
That same writer had later written for several games, including MMOs.

Perhaps the most important one is that good writing is not appreciated when selling a product where the writing matters for very little.

All writing is about characters. VTMB is nothing without its characters. Even mediocre gameplay is not as important for RPGs as good writing.

 

[Zeriel]

Why is writing so hard? What makes it such an impossibly difficult thing to do?

Like real talk, you have a reasonably talented person, you make them read a few books in a certain genre, take a few writing classes/workshops maybe, and ta-dah! You have a reasonably competent writer in the genre of their preference.

But in real life, you do all that and they just write about their weird sock fetish for 40 pages, put in a bunch of author avatar/political soapboxing bullshit, and gets fired.

Quality writers are so much more rare than their counterparts in art, music, etc. And as a career writer, I really have no idea why.

In my experience, you can lay the blame at the feet of the people hiring writers. HR department wants wokies. Agents are a notorious filter for the kind of writing that gets published for decades before the woke experience even existed; oftentimes the talent you're getting is not the talent readers want to read, but the talent agents want to read.

Sadly that's just the way the world operates. This idea that it is a meritocracy even in stated meritocracies is a cruel joke.

 

[Rahdulan]

Why is writing so hard? What makes it such an impossibly difficult thing to do?

Like real talk, you have a reasonably talented person, you make them read a few books in a certain genre, take a few writing classes/workshops maybe, and ta-dah! You have a reasonably competent writer in the genre of their preference.

But in real life, you do all that and they just write about their weird sock fetish for 40 pages, put in a bunch of author avatar/political soapboxing bullshit, and gets fired.

Quality writers are so much more rare than their counterparts in art, music, etc. And as a career writer, I really have no idea why.

I think that's actually part of the problem - many think it's so easy that anyone can do it without even trying or understanding anything behind what makes good writing. Not to mention how for most games writing just needs to be there as your average person is just as incapable of differentiating between well-written and poorly written material. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking your individual preference is some kind of objective indicator of quality rather than just that - your taste.

 

[NecroLord]

There could be an argument that in the internet age, writers have less hands-on life experience than previous generations... but I think ultimately my question is masturbatory, lotus-eating style contemplation.

The factors that prohibit good writers from the games industry are numerous. Perhaps the most important one is that good writing is not appreciated when selling a product where the writing matters for very little.

Writing Vampire: The Masquerade should be easy as cake.
Just make it grimdark with a strong gothic aesthetic and add the challenges of being a blood hungry monster struggling to survive while being surrounded by other blood hungry monsters and assorted evil creatures, while desperately clinging to his last shreds of humanity and morality.
It's not astrophysics, but it might take a decent writer to have all these elements actually work.

 

[Viata]

Modern people can't do shit, mate. This is not the 19th century anymore.

 

[Roguey]

Great writing was always rare. Now it's practically nonexistent no matter the medium, whether it's games, prose, television, or movies.

 

[NecroLord]

Modern people can't do shit, mate. This is not the 19th century anymore.

Those niggas with 'muh degrees and higher education are incredibly retarded. A degree doesn't give you fucking intelligence.

 

[user]

But in real life, you do all that and they just write about their weird sock fetish for 40 pages, put in a bunch of author avatar/political soapboxing bullshit, and gets fired.

Yeah, well, I was arguing with a film director about this the other day, and from what I understand by what he told me, most of this comes from their schools/teaching material.
He was telling me how he was taught that the most engaging and valuable thing in any movie, had nothing to do about its genre or plot, but about its power to intimately relate with people in the current societal context and culture.
So what would you expect...

 

[Tyranicon]

Great writing was always rare. Now it's practically nonexistent no matter the medium, whether it's games, prose, television, or movies.

I think this is probably the best general answer. But, there's more writers currently active than at any time in our collective history, so you'd think with the mountain of garbage we get, there's also plenty of quality.

... do we even know the writers curerntly attached to VtMB2? Is there any reason to believe they'll be using stuff from Mitsoda/Ellision/Cluney, or are they just starting over?

Are they just going to get more ex-Kotaku/Polygon writers so their game can bomb and not make any money?

 

[Harthwain]

Not to mention how for most games writing just needs to be there as your average person is just as incapable of differentiating between well-written and poorly written material.

I disagree with this bit. Developers may not know (or care) for the quality of the written material, but even your average person will be able to tell a well-written text from a poorly-written one. The former will simply be much more popular.

 

[NecroLord]

Are they just going to get more ex-Kotaku/Polygon writers so their game can bomb and not make any money?

Unfortunately and probably yes.

 

[Roguey]

... do we even know the writers curerntly attached to VtMB2? Is there any reason to believe they'll be using stuff from Mitsoda/Ellision/Cluney, or are they just starting over?

The Chinese Room's narrative designers include Dan Pinchbeck, Arone Le Bray, Sarah Longthorne, and Frances Wakefield-Harrey. At this point I'd say it's 99% safe to say they threw the Mitsoda script in the trash and did their own thing.

 

[NecroLord]

... do we even know the writers curerntly attached to VtMB2? Is there any reason to believe they'll be using stuff from Mitsoda/Ellision/Cluney, or are they just starting over?

The Chinese Room's narrative designers include Dan Pinchbeck, Arone Le Bray, Sarah Longthorne, and Frances Wakefield-Harrey. At this point I'd say it's 99% safe to say they threw the Mitsoda script in the trash and did their own thing.

No more Mitsoda?
Fuck that.

 

[Roguey]

No more Mitsoda?
Fuck that.

He was fired back in August 2020 man.

Also there's a 100% chance his script was full of cringe.

 

[Ibn Sina]

... do we even know the writers curerntly attached to VtMB2? Is there any reason to believe they'll be using stuff from Mitsoda/Ellision/Cluney, or are they just starting over?

The Chinese Room's narrative designers include Dan Pinchbeck, Arone Le Bray, Sarah Longthorne, and Frances Wakefield-Harrey. At this point I'd say it's 99% safe to say they threw the Mitsoda script in the trash and did their own thing.

No more Mitsoda?
Fuck that.

Mitosda is a raging cuckold and a diehard SJW. Someone link his apology tours during the promotion of this game.

 

[Hammer Of The Heretics]

Not to mention how for most games writing just needs to be there as your average person is just as incapable of differentiating between well-written and poorly written material.

I disagree with this bit. Developers may not know (or care) for the quality of the written material, but even your average person will be able to tell a well-written text from a poorly-written one. The former will simply be much more popular.

McDonald's has probably sold way more meals than all the three-star Michelin restaurants in the world put together. Popularity and quality are very different.

 

[Tyranicon]

... do we even know the writers curerntly attached to VtMB2? Is there any reason to believe they'll be using stuff from Mitsoda/Ellision/Cluney, or are they just starting over?

The Chinese Room's narrative designers include Dan Pinchbeck, Arone Le Bray, Sarah Longthorne, and Frances Wakefield-Harrey. At this point I'd say it's 99% safe to say they threw the Mitsoda script in the trash and did their own thing.

Anything about these names to inspire confidence?

All I found was that some of them worked on Mass Effect and Hogwarts Legacy.

 

[Cricket McBangle]

Not to mention how for most games writing just needs to be there as your average person is just as incapable of differentiating between well-written and poorly written material.

I disagree with this bit. Developers may not know (or care) for the quality of the written material, but even your average person will be able to tell a well-written text from a poorly-written one. The former will simply be much more popular.

McDonald's has probably sold way more meals than all the three-star Michelin restaurants in the world put together. Popularity and quality are very different.

When 3 star Michelin restaurants become as widely available and as cheap as McDonald's let me know.

 

[Roguey]

Viata https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...-from-paradox-interactive.126124/post-7910665

Guy insisted Hardsuit hire Ellison and then rubberstamped all her stupid ideas to the extent he was able while rejectionstamping everything Avellone submitted out of personal animosity.

 

[Harthwain]

McDonald's has probably sold way more meals than all the three-star Michelin restaurants in the world put together. Popularity and quality are very different.

What I meant is that if your writing is shit you're not likely to get popular, because people won't find your text interesting enough for them to read. Even "your average person". If anything, the argument that "for most games writing just needs to be there" could be easily applied to... games that are mostly about combat. Which is very different from more narrative-driven games (even if they do have combat).