World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 - VTMB sequel from The Chinese Room - coming early 2025

[ColaWerewolf]

https://vtmb.fandom.com/wiki/Characters I count over 90

Yeah, honestly right after posting I recalled all the NPCs that are in the game, even if only for a short while, and felt stupid for posting.


Edit:
Jeanette was also first created by Chad Moore, but Mitsoda revised/rewrote the character. In what way, we'll never know, but I think Mitsoda presents the situation disingenuously. If characters like Gary and Jeanette already existed, it's more fair to say that you contributed to their dialogue and final outcome, not "oh, I wrote this."

GB: Now, let’s move on to some of your other projects. While you were still at Troika, you had a hand in making Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines happen. And once again, it looks like you were involved in pretty much everything from character art to the game’s main story. What are some of your favorite memories about that project?

CM: Bloodlines was such a great project. I remember meeting with the guys from White Wolf to talk about the WoD, and then getting a huge box full of all the source material to dive into. I remember meeting Gabe Newell up at Valve and talking about how could we use the source engine to create our world. Lots of late nights with Leonard and Jason talking about the best ways to translate the VtM systems into the game. About what city the game should take place in. About the kinds of music that best represented the game’s vibe. Creating the first prototype with Jeanette, an alleyway, and a creepy basement (parts of which showed up in Gimble’s Prosthetics years later). Writing the game’s main story arc. Creating the Malkavian’s language. Modeling characters like the Nosferatu, the Tzmisce, and the Werewolf. Directing voice over and hearing our characters come to life through talented folks like John DiMaggio, Courtenay Taylor and Gray DeLisle. Watching a coven of dominatrix vampires spank fans with a leather horsewhip on the show floor at E3. Those were just a few of the highlights. But the best part was that we had a great group of devs who really cared about making a cool game. Many of us still keep in touch to this day.

 

[Delterius]

here's the problem with the ongoing conversation about mitsoda

it's been years since we've learned that the greatest storyteller involved in BL1 wasn't any of the writers

it was Rik Schaffer's wife. she did all the VO directing

and it was the VO that carried BL1

if you peel out all of the performance, the BL1 characters are almost textbook ventrue, textbook tremere, textbook malkavian, and so on. the performance is what gave them life. which isn't bad. it echoes the tabletop game where a good storyteller is also a good performer.

where the writers shone was in coming up with the setpieces. and even there we had some help from the setting. that moment when the game goes sideways and you have to infiltrate the italian mafia necromantic family? textbook vampire because thats just the what the giovanni are like.

not saying mitsoda was a dum dum. but really, there were no auteurs. claiming mitsoda as a big win for BL2 was always as iffy as TCR claiming there's a special TCR effect in BL2 given that even the studio's founder has left the company.

it probably played a hand in HS BL2's downfall. mitsoda was acting like an auteur and rejecting directives from the publisher as if he knew what he was doing. hell, nobody in Troika ever did. they had the heart, but not the autism to get games out there.

 

[Roguey]

Jeanette was also first created by Chad Moore, but Mitsoda revised/rewrote the character. In what way, we'll never know, but I think Mitsoda presents the situation disingenuously. If characters like Gary and Jeanette already existed, it's more fair to say that you contributed to their dialogue and final outcome, not "oh, I wrote this."

Execution is important and he was responsible for that. Josh Sawyer created many of the character concepts for New Vegas, but he gives credit to the people responsible for their execution.

Mitsoda created all the characters in Alpha Protocol, but Avellone was ultimately responsible for their execution (significantly different from his take).

 

[The President]

Funny how the back and forth between Mitsoda and Avellone went. That working relationship doesn’t seem to go well. They can blame that Avellone departure and the removal of his work on his accusers but he was out of there long before that came out.

It could be an ego thing but can anyone really argue Mitsoda is a better writer than Avellone, I don’t think it’s close.

 

[Wesp5]

How is that even possible, Wesp5 would know more but I doubt there's more than 40 unique character models in the game.

There are almost 150 dialogue files in Bloodlines (and almost 130 maps for anybody annoyed by some modern games using the same few maps over and over). So his claim can be right and it may also be, that he edited a lot of characters that were rather boring before, to make them unique! I saw only one conversation from BL2 and it was funny, but I can imagine that this kind of humor was what made Paradox fire him. All of you know that a lot of the more hilarious characters, like Larry, Tseng, Yukie and others, wouldn't be allowed anymore in the current climate. As for Mitsoda and Avellone, I can see writer egos clash there, and as for egos overall, even JMS the creator of Babylon 5, who is a great writer, overestimated the impact of writing alone when he made the failed sequel Crusade. Things like movies, shows and games are team works, and I agree that Rik Schaffer and his wife were very important too for Bloodlines! They worked with HSL on Bloodlines 2, but I don't think they work with TCR now...

 

[duskvile]

Does TCR have writers with fingerless gloves? That's all what matters.

 

[Delterius]

if you peel out all of the performance, the BL1 characters are almost textbook ventrue, textbook tremere, textbook malkavian, and so on. the performance is what gave them life. which isn't bad. it echoes the tabletop game where a good storyteller is also a good performer.

where the writers shone was in coming up with the setpieces.

i know i just said this, but if there's one line that got stuck in my brain it was 'i am now surely american citizen. god bless the allegiance flag!!' said by the guy wearing a PLA uniform

 

[normie]

 

[Spacer's Nugget]

Things like movies, shows and games are team works

Unless you're Cleveland Mark Blakemore

-"There's no 'I' in teamwork"

 

[Tyranicon]

Solodevs are Übermensch.

Especially since they own the totality of their IP.

Anything less and it's just a gig.

 

[The President]

I think it depends on a creative endeavor. I’m in my mid 30’s but I’ve had enough bosses to know that it sometimes works to allow things to be developed with a group’s input and sometimes you need one guy who insist on a particular course and drags everyone else along with it.

A few I’ve personally had who were a bit overbearing ended with a bunch of us able to say I told you so when things didn’t work out and a few I could say I understood what they were going for and without that kind of oversight it wouldn’t have worked out. It all depends how talented the leader is and that’s my worry with Mitsoda. He does say he has trouble in social settings and without good communication skills it does get hard to keep everything on track. Then again he wasn’t fired alone so that could potentially not be his fault.

 

[FritzedProcess]

Masquerade is definitely a "that phase" RPG that slots into the awkward period when you discover RPGs can be more than just dice rolling, but can't yet make them so yourself.

You grow out of it eventually. Sometimes you start playing Kult. Shit happens.

To me, Kult always was Clive Barker with gun porn (with lots of pics in 1st edition). The premise was quite interesting, but the players always went for the big guns. L5R and the WoD games didn't have the narrative focus marred by a detailed arsenal, but it was always funny to hear some edgy teen say "V:TM is better than D&D because it is narrative and it's nit for munchkins(...) So anyway, my gangrel can do X aggravated damage and do such and such per round", so V:TM's narrative focus was marred by an arsenal of combat-specific disciplines. L5R's fandom was less packed with weaboos than you'd have expected, and the setting and system were the best of the lot, IMHO (pre-Scorpion clan coup being the best setting).

 

[Wesp5]

It all depends how talented the leader is and that’s my worry with Mitsoda. He does say he has trouble in social settings and without good communication skills it does get hard to keep everything on track. Then again he wasn’t fired alone so that could potentially not be his fault.

I suspect the same, he was only the writer, the "leader" was Creative Director Ka'ai Clooney. And the latter was a good friend of Mitsoda! I can even imagine Paradox wanted to fire Clooney only, but Mitsoda threathened he would leave then. Which they anticipated by firing him too .

 

[duskvile]

I've combined the list of things what the game could have:
Good storytelling, voiceacting and interesting quests, horror with a smidge of dark humour, gritty combat and stealth class of vampire.

Is this too much to ask for a budget of this game?

 

[Delterius]

Solodevs are Übermensch.

i had to come back to this page to realize you weren't talking about a slav person named solodov. those were interesting 30 seconds of wondering what indie games solodov was making.

 

[Atlantico]

Solodevs are Übermensch.

i had to come back to this page to realize you weren't talking about a slav person named solodov. those were interesting 30 seconds of wondering what indie games solodov was making.

ngl I fell into the same mindtrap

 

[La vie sexuelle]

I'm wondering... The first information about this game was from 2018. Harduits Labs worked on it until 2021, four years. Sometime that same year, the Chinese Room takes over production and intends to release it in 2024, about three years after production. If they need that much time to finish, how bad was what Hardsuit Labs left behind?

it wasn't bad, Paradox just wanted another vision of project. Now TCR have less money and time than HSL. That's all

That's not what I meant. I was thinking about the state of the project, which had been dismantled for several years and its successors had to do almost everything from scratch.
How much garbage did HS create?

As SawyerFanNumberOne pointed out:

Looks like we've got guns and 3rd person view in Bloodlines 2

Guns yes, but I wouldn't expect a 3rd person view on account of the cost of all those extra animations they'd have to do. They just don't want to dismiss someone with 3rd person brawler experience since those skills can also be applied to a first person brawler.

I'm wondering... The first information about this game was from 2018. Harduits Labs worked on it until 2021, four years. Sometime that same year, the Chinese Room takes over production and intends to release it in 2024, about three years after production. If they need that much time to finish, how bad was what Hardsuit Labs left behind?

HSL's Bloodlines went into development in early 2016, they spent five years on it. TCR's Bloodlines is done almost from scratch, minus art and some character concepts.

I'm wondering... The first information about this game was from 2018. Harduits Labs worked on it until 2021, four years. Sometime that same year, the Chinese Room takes over production and intends to release it in 2024, about three years after production. If they need that much time to finish, how bad was what Hardsuit Labs left behind?

it wasn't bad, Paradox just wanted another vision of project. Now TCR have less money and time than HSL. That's all

I doubt they'd throw away $20 million+ on something that didn't exactly fit their vision if it was good enough to ship (there's always the next one). There are claims that it was both very unstable and very unfun.

I just can't ignore the fact that Paradox gave money to people who didn't know what they were doing and didn't present anything that could be called an "early version of a game that will actually be released someday." This famous gameplay footage was completely incoherent and I'm surprised anyone had any hope that HS would create a functioning product.

 

[Roguey]

I just can't ignore the fact that Paradox gave money to people who didn't know what they were doing and didn't present anything that could be called an "early version of a game that will actually be released someday." This famous gameplay footage was completely incoherent and I'm surprised anyone had any hope that HS would create a functioning product.

The Swedes saw "Mitsoda" and "Avellone" and thought "Where can I sign?!"

To his credit, Avellone admits he was selfish and shitty for participating in this, but he was high on delusionally optimistic hopium.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

I just can't ignore the fact that Paradox gave money to people who didn't know what they were doing and didn't present anything that could be called an "early version of a game that will actually be released someday." This famous gameplay footage was completely incoherent and I'm surprised anyone had any hope that HS would create a functioning product.

The Swedes saw "Mitsoda" and "Avellone" and thought "Where can I sign?!"

Probably. But they are soulless businessmen. How could they be so blinded by the magic of the name?

That's why I have a theory - the entire Paradox department responsible for the World of Darkness is mentally retarded. I don't see any other option. Everything Paradox has done in terms of WoD since purchasing the franchise has been a series of bad decisions.

 

[Roguey]

Probably. But they are soulless businessmen. How could they be so blinded by the magic of the name?

That's why I have a theory - the entire Paradox department responsible for the World of Darkness is mentally retarded. I don't see any other option. Everything Paradox has done in terms of WoD since purchasing the franchise has been a series of bad decisions.

Paradox almost fell for Wayward Realms's scam until one of the persons involved got too greedy. Throw celebrity dev names in their faces and they lose most of their senses.

They paid Obsidian extra money to have Avellone as creative lead on Tyranny and were quite irate to find out through the Codex interview that wasn't the case.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

Paradox almost fell for Wayward Realms's scam until one of the persons involved got too greedy. Throw celebrity dev names in their faces and they lose most of their senses.

They paid Obsidian extra money to have Avellone as creative lead on Tyranny and were quite irate to find out through the Codex interview that wasn't the case.

...are all Swedes like this?

 

[Herumor]

Everything Paradox has done in terms of WoD since purchasing the franchise has been a series of bad decisions.

The IP just seems to be cursed overall. Nothing survives contact with it. Look at CCP - they tried to do something with it, and funnily enough it might have been good considering their unique approach to MMOs - obvious cosmetics cash shop aside.

 

[Alienman]

Probably. But they are soulless businessmen. How could they be so blinded by the magic of the name?

That's why I have a theory - the entire Paradox department responsible for the World of Darkness is mentally retarded. I don't see any other option. Everything Paradox has done in terms of WoD since purchasing the franchise has been a series of bad decisions.

Paradox almost fell for Wayward Realms's scam until one of the persons involved got too greedy. Throw celebrity dev names in their faces and they lose most of their senses.

They paid Obsidian extra money to have Avellone as creative lead on Tyranny and were quite irate to find out through the Codex interview that wasn't the case.

Maybe they just believed, nothing wrong with that. Happens every day on the Codex.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

Everything Paradox has done in terms of WoD since purchasing the franchise has been a series of bad decisions.

The IP just seems to be cursed overall. Nothing survives contact with it. Look at CCP - they tried to do something with it, and funnily enough it might have been good considering their unique approach to MMOs - obvious cosmetics cash shop aside.

And when they abandoned WoD, suddenly the company started doing well again.

And what does it look like with a paper RPG? Onyx still exists? Have they gone completely outsourcing?

 

[Herumor]

And what does it look like with a paper RPG? Onyx still exists? Have they gone completely outsourcing?

From what I can see on their website they still exist and print out stuff, so nWoD didn't bury them.