Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Warcraft III: Reforged - now with lowest user metacritic score of all time

Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,207
Talking about the human campaign... I need to try and replay the campaign on hard again. Now I want to download the classic game from alternative means. Did that two years ago. Every time I try to replay the campaign on hard, I get rekt in March of the Scourge. Do I suck or is that mission just super-hard?

I'd say you kind of suck. Its fairly normal to lose most of your army and defenses to the final wave but the reinforcements should arrive before your base is destroyed.

Make sure to
- Take the expansion early
- Use dispel on skeletons
- Use mortars on necromancers, then on ghouls
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,712
Pathfinder: Wrath
It's basically impossible getting the expansion on March of the Scourge and keeping it. It's easy to get it, but the undead attack it relentlessly and you have to split your forces, something you can't really afford on hard.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,207
pfay22w.jpg

EqHQ8c2.jpg


Went immediately for the murlocs with the boots, came back to fight off waves from both enemies, went north to attack the towers and slipped a peasant through to build the town hall. Attacked purple base with a group of footmen/riflemen/priests/mortars @ about 65-70ish supply, took out most of it before I had to come back to defend (though peasants did pretty good as militia against one weak wave). Keep in mind that if you get attacked you can draw the aggro of the attacking force with a single rifleman or something and then just run around a bit.

Sadly I was not able to beat the green base. It has a level 10 lich (2 frost novas will essentially destroy an entire army) and a lot faster production (3 crypts 2 temples 2 slaughterhouses vs. 2 crypts 1 temple 2 slaughterhouses). I suspect it might also be getting some cheats in the final minutes to turn up the pressure. The rate that it can churn out units and re-summon their hero is very hard to press through. I killed the lich while attacking the base, killed a few structures, kill the Lich AGAIN, then as I was barely able to keep up with the production from the green base he came back again and just raped me. Just to give you an idea of my army composition the final group I used for the attack had 8 footmen, 8 riflemen, 8 priests and 7 mortars. Not because I was fixated on the number 8 but just because that was what I ended up with.

In retrospect:
- Arthas not having level 3 holy light was a mistake, you really want that to kill those liches. I was level 2 holy light level 3 devotion + resurrect, but honestly resurrect is useless since you'll generally get only 2-3 units out of it (if that, necromancers tend to steal your corpses especially with how many the 2nd base has), and a level 2 or 3 holy light is basically a full heal anyway. Load up Arthas with 1-2 potions of mana and take them out quick. Level 3 would also one-shot necromancers which would be a pretty good deal, get more mana potions.
- Priests are kind of crap for their healing once you run into the disease from the abominations, considering they can't get master rank training to improve their mana gain and there's no good mana fountain (and the healing fountain is far enough away as to be useless). Just having 2-3 priests mainly for dispel (keep healing disabled until you need it) rather than 6+ and a ton more riflemen in their place is probably better, at least if you want to take out the green base and try to keep up with the rate it spams units. I did forget that riflemen countered heavy armor in original WC3 until I was done with the mission.
- Similarly I forgot that mortars actually do reduced damage to casters in WC3 rather than increased like in TFT. Its still kind of fine though, they tend to be the only units that can reach necromancers and they'll take them out in 1-2 volleys, and since AI necromancers always clump up for your AoE you'll be able to kill them pretty quickly. Its also useful for skeletons/ghouls/meat wagons. It's also notable that they'll clean up the liches pretty well, despite only doing 50% damage that's 50% of a fuck ton vs. the absolute shit damage footmen output. With 6 mortars you should be able to take him out quite quickly in conjunction with level 3 holy light.

It's basically impossible getting the expansion on March of the Scourge and keeping it. It's easy to get it, but the undead attack it relentlessly and you have to split your forces, something you can't really afford on hard.

lolok. But seriously, if you aren't taking out purple like I did then just station your army around where the purple towers were, you can basically zone out attacks to the expansion while quickly responding to attacks in the south. I didn't build any towers, I just scattered some farms on the southern entrance to the main base (DON'T put them right next to each other or the AoE from wagons will take them out much quicker). Sure you might lose a farm or two before getting back to defend but that's trivial compared to having a whole second base.
 
Last edited:

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,737
Remember that if you are playing the RoC campaign you are doing so with the unit types and balance changes from TFT because Blizzard didn't care enough to convert that properly.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,207
Nah, this was in non-updated WC3, so RoC uses original RoC armor types.

TFT balance would make it much easier since it'd take like 3-4 mortar hits to wipe out a whole AoE of necromancers rather than a dozen. And the liches wouldn't have Normal damage that has a huge bonus vs. all of my units other than footmen and Arthas.
 

catfood

AGAIN
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
9,588
Location
Nirvana for mice
Nah, this was in non-updated WC3, so RoC uses original RoC armor types.

TFT balance would make it much easier since it'd take like 3-4 mortar hits to wipe out a whole AoE of necromancers rather than a dozen. And the liches wouldn't have Normal damage that has a huge bonus vs. all of my units other than footmen and Arthas.
What version are you using? I have a 1.31 build and all the tooltips in ROC are gone. As a result I can't even use hotkeys to build anymore.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,712
Pathfinder: Wrath
Average Manatee if you cheat the AI or try to destroy the bases, sure, but I meant playing normally. Destroying the bases can be done on hard, see here -


At least I think it's on hard, the green lich is lvl 10.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,207
Average Manatee if you cheat the AI or try to destroy the bases, sure, but I meant playing normally.
I described how to do it playing normally. Just guard around where the purple towers were.

Destroying the bases can be done on hard, see here -


At least I think it's on hard, the green lich is lvl 10.


I mean, I was sure it was possible to destroy green. I almost did it on my first try playing the game after probably 5 years of not touching it, and identified several changes I would have made to make it much easier. It looks like your video basically does the same: no priests, way more riflemen. The divine shield usage is kind of cheesy though.

Nah, this was in non-updated WC3, so RoC uses original RoC armor types.

TFT balance would make it much easier since it'd take like 3-4 mortar hits to wipe out a whole AoE of necromancers rather than a dozen. And the liches wouldn't have Normal damage that has a huge bonus vs. all of my units other than footmen and Arthas.
What version are you using? I have a 1.31 build and all the tooltips in ROC are gone. As a result I can't even use hotkeys to build anymore.

This is the PTR version of 1.31.
 

Dakka

Savant
Joined
Oct 3, 2017
Messages
225
Location
Hell
Everyone seems to be talking about the visuals, but what I remember about the old Blizzard more than anything else was music. My god, the music. Warcraft 2 and Starcraft had some of the best music I've ever heard in video games. As far as I know, Blizzard has never achieved anything comparable since. Starcraft 2 was such a letdown in that regard. I have no idea how well the refunded edition treats the music because I have completely forgotten the music of the original Warcraft 3.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,903
Starcraft 2 was such a letdown in that regard.

SC2 music was the exact same "Star Wars by Hans Zimmer who didn't try too hard" kindda thing, with some chill elevator muzak tunes mixed in. It's easily comparable with older Blizzard fare.
Starcraft had memorable tunes, you're out of your mind. So did WC3 and its expansion.
I mean how can you call this "Star Wars by Hans Zimmer who didn't try too hard" or elevator muzak:


Huh?
 

Dakka

Savant
Joined
Oct 3, 2017
Messages
225
Location
Hell
Starcraft 2 was such a letdown in that regard.

SC2 music was the exact same "Star Wars by Hans Zimmer who didn't try too hard" kindda thing, with some chill elevator muzak tunes mixed in. It's easily comparable with older Blizzard fare.
Nonsense. Starcraft had much more memorable tunes. Its music had melody and rhythm.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Starcraft 2 music was bad. It was competent ambience at least. I'm just saying it wasn't quite as good.
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,927
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Starcraft 2 was such a letdown in that regard.

SC2 music was the exact same "Star Wars by Hans Zimmer who didn't try too hard" kindda thing, with some chill elevator muzak tunes mixed in. It's easily comparable with older Blizzard fare.
Nonsense. Starcraft had much more memorable tunes. Its music had melody and rhythm.

Nostalgia.

Of all the faux, wannabe Star Wars soundtracks of the last 30 years the SC2 one is among the "best", if you're into this kind of thing. Even I find it fairly competent.
As for SC1, the direct comparison is tricky since it's it's all MIDI while SC2 is fully orchestral. In general tho Blizzard did tend to have some of the best music in the business.

 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,376
Starcraft BW is superior to SC2 in every aspect.

Sure it is. And WC2 is superior to WC3 in every aspect while WC1 is superior to WC2 in every aspect.

Because this is my nostalgia. There are many like it but goddamn this one is mine.
SC and BW are better than SC2 story-wise.

They added a few interesting gameplay improvements in SC2, but overall it wasn't groundbreaking (I'd say it was somewhere on the level of BW), so SC2 felt as a lot worse game than it actually was for people who were let down by the continuation of the story.
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,927
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
SC and BW are better than SC2 story-wise.

And that's the only thing the original is better at. The writing in SC2, especially HotS, is full-on nuBlizzard retardery.

But playing SC1 a few years back it felt like RTS prehistory. Most missions are "sit in base for 20 minutes > deathball everything". In comparison the mission structure, the unit variations, call-on abilities and other mechanics in SC2 are a significant improvement. Saying the original "is better at everything" is pure, unadulterated, comically blind fanboi nostalgia.
 

Alienman

Retro-Fascist
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
18,169
Location
Mars
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Even if I like SC2, to me it felt like a 20 hour long tutorial. Only the last couple of missions give you free hands to do whatever. Some times it's good to have some regular build shit up and attack missions and I felt that was lacking.
 
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
7,630
But playing SC1 a few years back it felt like RTS prehistory. Most missions are "sit in base for 20 minutes > deathball everything". In comparison the mission structure, the unit variations, call-on abilities and other mechanics in SC2 are a significant improvement. Saying the original "is better at everything" is pure, unadulterated, comically blind fanboi nostalgia.

True but to me the garbage controls and pathfinding are really the biggest issue after getting used to SC2. SC2 might be a little too fast but I'll take fast with good controls over getting annoyed at stupid pathfinding and having to click every building individually all the time. It feels more like fighting a game and not the enemy. SC1 campaign sure has a lot better atmosphere but this is not a genre where that is anywhere as important as gameplay to me.
 
Last edited:

Daedalos

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
5,604
Location
Denmark
Singleplayer gameplay doesnt really suffer all that much from old school control systems like SC + BW, it's mangerable, especially at lower difficulties.

In multiplayer it's another story, though. that's really you really seperate the wheat from the chaff. I love the SC remaster, it's great.

SC2 was good too, at least the multiplayer was good.

SC2 singleplayer was fucking dogshit compared to 1, in every way possible.

SC and BW oozes atmosphere, world building and story in every orifice, while SC2 is just some rag-tag dumbed down bullshit love story
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom