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Warhammer Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader - turn-based Warhammer 40k RPG from Owlcat Games - now with Void Shadows DLC

user

Savant
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
862
rushed out in an unplayable state on release only so that Owlclowns could capitalize on the BG3 hype
"BG3 hype" had nothing to do with releasing Rogue Trader in terrible state.

The real reason to rush the game out in 2023 was because there was an announcement that games made in Unity engine will have only a set number of free installations and each installation above that will have to be paid for by the developers (or something along these lines). This change was supposed to go live in 2024. Hence the release happening in December of 2023.

Frankly, I won't be surprised if Unity engine ends up being abandoned by the majority of developers as a result.

They should abandon those greedy fuckers. In the end all that will be left of their users will be mobile adware clickers - unfortunately this is quite a large portion of the market, but even these will abandon them once the community dries out.
I am a Unity developer but it'd be better if it dies, so that others won't try to pull this kind of shit without a second thought.

I believe the decision was made by someone who deemed it "necessary" for the viability of their budget. However I've found that those decisions are often way stupider than one would expect, and usually, don't account for long-term consequences, reputation or really understand technical realities (aka the huge clusterfuck of things that were bugged/not working).
 

MjKorz

Educated
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I believe the decision was made by someone who deemed it "necessary" for the viability of their budget. However I've found that those decisions are often way stupider than one would expect, and usually, don't account for long-term consequences, reputation or really understand technical realities (aka the huge clusterfuck of things that were bugged/not working).
They had a history of two extremely buggy releases at that point. The initial release of Kingmaker was so bad, they forgot to include the executable file lol. Instead of making extra sure that their third release would not suffer the same fate, they decided to spit into the face of their playerbase and rush the game, creating another buggy release. At some point, when mistakes like these become systematic, incompetence stops being a valid excuse, especially since they refuse to acknowledge it by making extra sure to not rush the game, and the only viable reason becomes very clear: greed. Or malice and genuine hatred towards their own players.
 

Harthwain

Magister
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Dec 13, 2019
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5,237
To put things into perspective why the unity excuse doesn't fly: initial announcement was made on September 12, backpedalling (severe changes to the runtime fee policy) occurred on September 22.
...

On September 12, Unity announced that beginning January 1, 2024, its pricing for developers would include a “Runtime Fee,” [...]
Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader, the upcoming cRPG set in the Warhammer 40,000 universe developed by Owlcat Games, now has a release date, as revealed in the new trailer that you can watch above. That date is December 7, 2023.

[...]

Posted: Sep 13, 2023 3:00 pm
On September 12, 2023 Unity announces its pricing changes and on September 13, 2023 - literally the day after - we have a release date set on... December 7, 2023 (before January 1, 2024). I would say it checks out.

Owlcat already made it clear that their future games will be a mix of Unity and Unreal, it seems they are not planning to abandon Unity. At least completely.
Looks like they're switching gears to Unreal. Also, keep in mind that some current projects are running on Unity. It will take time for developers to change the engine to something else.
 

MjKorz

Educated
Joined
Jul 11, 2022
Messages
530
To put things into perspective why the unity excuse doesn't fly: initial announcement was made on September 12, backpedalling (severe changes to the runtime fee policy) occurred on September 22.
...

On September 12, Unity announced that beginning January 1, 2024, its pricing for developers would include a “Runtime Fee,” [...]
Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader, the upcoming cRPG set in the Warhammer 40,000 universe developed by Owlcat Games, now has a release date, as revealed in the new trailer that you can watch above. That date is December 7, 2023.

[...]

Posted: Sep 13, 2023 3:00 pm
On September 12, 2023 Unity announces its pricing changes and on September 13, 2023 - literally the day after - we have a release date set on... December 7, 2023 (before January 1, 2024). I would say it checks out.

Owlcat already made it clear that their future games will be a mix of Unity and Unreal, it seems they are not planning to abandon Unity. At least completely.
Looks like they're switching gears to Unreal. Also, keep in mind that some current projects are running on Unity. It will take time for developers to change the engine to something else.
The point of my post was that there was a very short time interval between the announcement and the radical changes to the runtime fee policy: roughly 10 days. Even if they made the decision to rush the release in one day (which is absolutely retarded), they had plenty of time to course-correct and delay the release after the backlash and the policy change.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,237
The point of my post was that there was a very short time interval between the announcement and the radical changes to the runtime fee policy: roughly 10 days. Even if they made the decision to rush the release in one day (which is absolutely retarded), they had plenty of time to course-correct and delay the release after the backlash and the policy change.
First of all - they committed themselves at that point.

Secondly - it doesn't really matter that there was some policy change from Unity after the backlash. Unity has shown itself as unreliable and at that moment it lost the trust of many developers and publishers. Nothing is going to change that. There simply was no reason for Owlcat to risk going back into 2024 when the safer course was to stay in the tail end of 2023.
 

MjKorz

Educated
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First of all - they committed themselves at that point.
Game release dates get shuffled all the time, going back to the original schedule (assuming there was a different release date initially which was changed as a result of the Unity runtime fee announcement) would have surprised absolutely no one and they had no legal or other obligations to release exactly on that date.

Also, you assume the release date was the result of the Unity runtime fee announcement, we don't actually know that. There is no proof whatsoever that the Unity announcement forced them to change the release date and they made no such statement as far as I'm aware. The release date we got could have very well been the originally planned release date which brings me back to my point: they rushed the game on purpose to cash in on the BG3 hype.

Secondly - it doesn't really matter that there was some policy change from Unity after the backlash. Unity has shown itself as unreliable and at that moment it lost the trust of many developers and publishers. Nothing is going to change that.
So release the game in progress properly and switch to some other engine later. The immediate runtime fee problem was backpedalled on almost immediately and there was plenty of time to shift the release date.

There simply was no reason for Owlcat to risk going back into 2024 when the safer course was to stay in the tail end of 2023.
But there was a very good reason: not making another catastrophically buggy release.
 

jf8350143

Liturgist
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Harthwain

Magister
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Messages
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Also, you assume the release date was the result of the Unity runtime fee announcement, we don't actually know that.
And you assume the release date was the result of Owlcat trying to "cash in on the BG3 hype" based on what exactly? Rogue Trader may share the same genre with Baldur's Gate 3, but there are a plenty of differences between them to disappoint anyone trying to look for "BG3 experience", which makes such approach a folly.

But there was a very good reason: not making another catastrophically buggy release.
Maybe they thought they can get it in good enough shape before the release. Or maybe they thought they handled it before, so they will be able to handle it now. It is not like Owlcat is not known for their catastrophically buggy releases. On the other hand, having to pay for installations... I can see how that could've motivated them.
 

MjKorz

Educated
Joined
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530
And you assume the release date was the result of Owlcat trying to "cash in on the BG3 hype" based on what exactly?
The fact that making money is the prime motivator for a business.

Rogue Trader may share the same genre with Baldur's Gate 3, but there are a plenty of differences between them to disappoint anyone trying to look for "BG3 experience", which makes such approach a folly.
BG3 exposed countless casuals to the genre, capitalizing on that exposure while the iron is still hot is a no-brainer. Also, the said casuals aren't genre-literate enough to properly understand the differences.

Maybe they thought they can get it in good enough shape before the release. Or maybe they thought they handled it before, so they will be able to handle it now. It is not like Owlcat is not known for their catastrophically buggy releases.
Normalizing systematic incompetence is not a valid excuse. We are talking about a developer who is indeed "known for their catastrophically buggy releases". Honest developers would admit their shortcomings and do whatever is needed to launch the game in a presentable state in order to make amends for subjecting their playerbase to said catastrophically buggy releases. Dishonest scum would rush the game, expecting their playerbase to swallow whatever garbage they produce, because they're already known for garbage bug-ridden releases and "the playerbase will eat it up anyway." We know which route Owlclowns took.

On the other hand, having to pay for installations... I can see how that could've motivated them.
They had plenty of time to shift the release date after Unity devs backpedalled and were under no obligation to release the game at any particular set date. I do not believe in this narrative.


In truth, the reasons why Owlclowns rushed the game don't even matter. The only thing that matters is that they did so deliberately knowing full well the state of their game and knowing their own history of bug-ridden launches. They deliberately spat in the faces of their players, expecting the players to lap up yet another pile of broken garbage like before. And for that, they can eat shit.
 

MjKorz

Educated
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Messages
530
How much did Rogue Trader sell?
They guard those numbers jealously. If they had anything to boast about, we'd have already been informed.

All I need to see is their 40k turd having less players than a 3-year old WotR game.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,237
In truth, the reasons why Owlclowns rushed the game don't even matter. The only thing that matters is that they did so deliberately knowing full well the state of their game and knowing their own history of bug-ridden launches. They deliberately spat in the faces of their players, expecting the players to lap up yet another pile of broken garbage like before. And for that, they can eat shit.
Yeah, I left a negative review, because there simply was too much stuff going wrong to just ignore it (and a few things had me really worked up).
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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Frostfell
How much did Rogue Trader sell?

How much RT costed to be made?

In business, we don't look only in total sales to see if something was profitable. If 40k sold 20% of BG3 sales but costed 1% to be made, that project in pure returns by investment perspective is a more successful project. No one in food business think "hur dur the local gourmet restaurant din't made as much money as Mc Donalds, so it was a failure" or something retarded like that.

All I need to see is their 40k turd having less players than a 3-year old WotR game.

Because WoTR has much less Sawerysm in the game.

Has everything that balance cultists hate yet is more successful.

I hope that the next OwlCat game will be based in a retroclone. And that they will hire someone like Pierre(kotc1/2) to design encounters and enemy AI.
 

MjKorz

Educated
Joined
Jul 11, 2022
Messages
530
Yeah, I left a negative review, because there simply was too much stuff going wrong to just ignore it (and a few things had me really worked up).
I bought and played the game on launch. Got softlocked in chapter 3 with the Argenta quest not progressing (not going to advance the game while missing out on companion storylines), countless people got hardlocked in chapter 4 on launch. Of those few who miraculously made it to chapter 5, many couldn't finish the game. This was their absolutely worst release, worse than Kingmaker.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
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Frostfell
This was their absolutely worst release, worse than Kingmaker.

Kingmaker I played till Pitax in my first run and everything worked flawlessly till there...

Damn so no sales number is known? Must have flopped hard then.


When looking at steam reviews they're also only at 12k compared to 560k for BG3...

If we have a company A that mades an game who costed 200 million USD to be made and from sales, got 300 million back and the company B which made a game for one million USD and got 50 million in sales, which company is more successful? One has 50% ROI(Return on investment), another 4900%. For a small team in Cyprus, this game is a success.
 

scytheavatar

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
608
This was their absolutely worst release, worse than Kingmaker.

Kingmaker I played till Pitax in my first run and everything worked flawlessly till there...

Damn so no sales number is known? Must have flopped hard then.


When looking at steam reviews they're also only at 12k compared to 560k for BG3...

If we have a company A that mades an game who costed 200 million USD to be made and from sales, got 300 million back and the company B which made a game for one million USD and got 50 million in sales, which company is more successful? One has 50% ROI(Return on investment), another 4900%. For a small team in Cyprus, this game is a success.

Owlcat WAS small, nowadays they are a 400+ man studio and no longer a small company. Oleg Shpilchevskiy made it clear Owlcat games have budgets in the $5-15 million range, not 1 million like you are suggesting. I also am not convinced Rogue Trader sold enough to get 50 million in sales.

Plus 10 million copies sold is a lowball estimate for BG3, by now they probably have more than 20 million sold. Considering how long the game has been staying in the steam topseller list and how the game still breaks 80k concurrent players.
 

Yuber

Educated
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Aug 17, 2023
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162
If I don't like Pathfinder Kingsmaker and WoTR is there any chance I can enjoy this game?
 

Hellraiser

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Is the game patched sufficiently or does it need another 6 months in the oven before the bugs are ironed out? Was wondering if I should play it next after I finish up Naheulbeuk's last DLC or wait and play something else from my PC backlog instead.
 
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Messages
652
Location
Germoney
How much did Rogue Trader sell?

How much RT costed to be made?

In business, we don't look only in total sales to see if something was profitable. If 40k sold 20% of BG3 sales but costed 1% to be made, that project in pure returns by investment perspective is a more successful project. No one in food business think "hur dur the local gourmet restaurant din't made as much money as Mc Donalds, so it was a failure" or something retarded like that.

All I need to see is their 40k turd having less players than a 3-year old WotR game.

Because WoTR has much less Sawerysm in the game.


Obviously.
 

Dishonoredbr

Erudite
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
2,383
https://www.windowscentral.com/gami...hadows-expansion-warhammer-40000-rogue-trader
"We do the things that we do because we feel they are important": Owlcat Games talks bug fixes and Void Shadows expansion for Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader
Features
By Samuel Tolbert published 8 hours ago
Executive producer Anatoly Shestov shares how Owlcat Games learned from feedback for Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader.




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Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader Void Shadows key art
(Image credit: Owlcat Games)
Owlcat Games' debut adventure in the Warhammer 40,000 universe was one of my favorite games of 2023. It was also one of the buggiest games I played that year.

In my review of Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader, I noted that writing and gameplay made for a fantastic experience, but that running into bugs was extremely frequent, to the point backtracking through saves was necessary at times.

Now, several months after it launched, Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader is in a much better state, with a number of mammoth updates that cleaned up issues I and other players encountered. With this experience now under the team's belt, I had the chance to talk with executive producer Anatoly Shestov, who provided insight into the team's reaction, development process, and even some ideas of what to look forward to in the first big expansion for the game.

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Disclaimer
This interview has been edited and condensed for readability.

Reacting to a tsunami of feedback
Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader Dark Mechanicus

Rogue Trader is filled with quests and characters. At launch, it was also filled with bugs. (Image credit: Owlcat Games)
In his own words, Shestov is in charge of "shenanigans" at Owlcat Games, ensuring that the team meets deadlines, budget constraints, and player quality expectations. He explains that when the team was shipping the game, they knew there would be some bugs to address (as the majority of games often have), but everyone was taken aback by the sheer number of bugs being reported.

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“I was one of the ones who made a decision that the game was ready to be launched," he says, adding that the team had done a "tremendous amount of smaller fixes" in the lead-up to launch, as well as noting that “We made some mistakes, and we’re acting right now according to that.”

Like the studio's prior work, Rogue Trader is a massive role-playing game, and it's entirely possible to spend over 100 hours playing through without seeing every last quest or detail that's available. Shestov says that this very nature of the games Owlcat works on means it's easier for bugs to not show up during internal testing.

“The other side of the coin is to not commit until you test 100% of everything, to wait until every piece of the picture is in its place. It’s possible to make a game in that way, it’s just the game that will be made will be 10 times shorter [than our games], in terms of playtime, in terms of the choices, in terms of the options," he says, adding that "Sometimes it backfires, but sometimes it brings us love because there is a unique feeling in our games. We do the things that we do because we feel they are important."

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Sometimes it backfires, but sometimes it brings us love because there is a unique feeling in our games

Anatoly Shestov
Looking ahead, Owlcat isn't changing the types of games it's making, but the process is going to be refined as a result of this experience in order to make things hopefully go smoother in the future.

"We are risking a lot. We are not going to stop, we will continue to risk. But we will allocate more budget to QA, we will plan more precise timing and we will make sure the content we are delivering to players is better quality and more polished,” Shestov says.

Outside of fixing myriad issues that blocked quests or required players to reload saves, Owlcat was also taken aback by the sheer number of players who enjoyed simply burning through the game with outright broken builds.

“We were surprised — and it was useful feedback— that one of the core feelings that our audience want to receive is a feeling of overpowered power fantasy. Broken builds that one-shot bosses…they’re loving this,” he explains, adding that when some of these options were removed during some rebalancing patches, it created a "shitstorm" of "people telling us we destroyed their pristine fantasy."

A far more innocuous surprise for the team? The popularity of Marazhai, a Drukhari officer who can join the player's team under certain circumstances. His appeal has been far broader than Owlcat expected, and Shestov says that Marazhai is "popular as hell" as a romance option.

Void Shadows DLC Teaser Trailer | Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader - YouTubeVoid Shadows DLC Teaser Trailer | Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader - YouTubeWatch On
Shifting gears, I asked Shestov about what's in store with Void Shadows, the first of two major paid expansions planned for Rogue Trader. Void Shadows adds around 15 hours of new story and quests and is woven directly into the main game. Void Shadows, appropriately enough, is all about life on board a voidship.

While the team wasn't able to explore as much of these vast spacefaring vessels as they would've liked, this DLC has provided the opportunity to add more depth to that aspect of the game.

“We didn’t touch every stone that needed to be touched,” he says. "A voidship itself is a tremendous city with its own factions, its own nations, its own people living inside it.”

One of the central mysteries in Void Shadows is the threat of a Genestealer Cult, a malignant force that threatens to consume and indoctrinate. Genestealer Cults are usually found on planets like dense Hive Worlds, and their odd appearance here is by design.

“Of course there is a huge mystery around how a Genestealer cult ended up on a voidship, not on a given planet,” Shestov says, though he chooses not to say more in order to avoid spoilers. Genestealers can actually be found in one particular side quest in the main game, but they were originally supposed to be seen a bit more. Shestov explains that as development progressed, it became necessary to cut a few quests and locations in order to better polish the majority of the game, which led to all but one quest involving the Genestealers being removed.

“That’s why we have some pieces of the game that are good, that are compelling, but they only happen one time. Any game developer can look at that and say ‘Guys, that’s not a wise use of money and time,’” he says with a laugh. “And we agree, we’d better use it more. But there is always a time in any development process where you need to press the button.”

Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader Void Shadows Kibella

Kibellah is a member of the Death Cult Assassins, and a new companion for players to bring with them. (Image credit: Owlcat Games)
Void Shadows also introduces the character Kibellah, a Death Cult Assassin who is also a possible companion and love interest for the player. When I asked Shestov why they wanted this particular type of character to be the newest companion, he's again a bit cagey in his pursuit of avoiding spoilers but does note that the team wanted someone who felt natural given the setting for the expansion.

“When we envisioned what kind of story we wanted to tell, the next step was to envision what kind of companion will emerge from such a story," he says, adding with a chuckle that they didn't intend to add a character simply because they liked the miniatures.

I asked if the team felt comfortable with going deeper into more convoluted aspects of the setting with the expansions, instead of worrying about making things accessible to newcomers. Shestov explains that it's the team's policy to always ensure that a game appeals to both newcomers and veterans alike.

“That’s not about the DLC or the main game, that’s our studio policy. Our internal approval team, who make the final decision about whether or not we’re ready to ship something to players, has people are deeply familiar with Warhammer as well as people who didn’t know what it is at all,” he says. “In our [development] team, like 99% are familiar with Warhammer. Over half are deeply familiar, playing different games or reading books.”

It’s always a leap of faith. But when you’re doing it with a team of 100 people, and with such a fanbase, it’s twice as big a leap of faith

He goes on to explain that the internal approval team consists by design of several different people with varying levels of experience, some being hardcore players and others that have never played a role-playing game before. All of this is to be sure that someone who is only interested in the story can still have an enjoyable experience on a lower difficulty setting.

“We’ve been making RPGs for more than five years. We’ve delivered three games in that genre, and we understand that different aspects of that genre touch players. We always try to find a way to deliver to every aspect of the audience," he says.

To close our conversation, I asked if there was anything he could share about Void Shadows before it arrives.

“We allowed ourselves to be a bit more dark. A bit more thrilling,” he says, adding that, in some ways, it’s a “big experiment” for the studio and that he’s looking forward to player feedback.

“It’s always a leap of faith. But when you’re doing it with a team of 100 people, and with such a fanbase, it’s twice as big a leap of faith.”

Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader is currently available on Xbox Series X|S, Windows PC, Mac, and PlayStation 5. Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader - Void Shadows is slated to arrive on Sep. 24, 2024,and requires the base game in order to play.
 

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