What game are you wasting time on?

[Silverfish]

I suppose you think Skyrim is "fun" too?

No, I hated having 20 ways to tackle combat encounters.

 

[Ash]

Bottom of the barrel argumentation and comprehension as is standard on the codex these days. "Freedom so it must be good!". Makes sense as to why garbage Ubisoft-style open world games is the modern gold standard, if that is as deep as one's brain can go.

 

[Silverfish]

Bottom of the barrel argumentation as is standard on the codex these days. "Freedom so it must be good!".

As a guy who got into rpgs in a roundabout fashion, yeah, I appreciate having a ton of options. It's reminiscent of the action games I was into prior.

 

[Ash]

Which action games? I don't follow. Skyrim and Oblivion offers a pretty unique brand of shittiness, and there are many Action RPGs that do it better. As for prior action games, am also a big fan...unless you're talking about the likes of Assassin's Creed, Batman: Arkham City, Just Cause...then you are beyond redemption my friend. Indeed they're similarly a big open copy-paste expanse of braindead, repetitive, shallow content.

Also why Silverfish? One of the worst fucking insects there is. I kill those bastards on sight.

 

[Silverfish]

Which action games?

DMC, Shinobi, 3D Castlevanias, Rygar reboot, Killer is Dead, that kind of thing.

Also why Silverfish?

I've always chosen unappealing usernames on boards or social media. The first message board I was a regular on was dedicated to Mortal Kombat and generally users tried to come up with '''''''''cool'''''''' names derived from the series. You can see only so many "BlazingScorpion420", "xXIcyWindXx", or "RoughRidaShangTsung4Lyfe" profiles before wanting to get as far away from that as possible.

 

[Ash]

DMC is the polar opposite with a quality over quantity approach, all its content has very explicit purpose & cohesion, it is somewhat linear, minimal rehashing - a few levels toward the end only in 1 & 3, and this was already pushing it. DMC 2 and 4 rehash a fuckton in a very lame way however, but I digress. Freedom? Which upgrade to buy first, which combat methods to use, how thorough to be with the sprinkles of side content. Otherwise Skyrim couldn't be further removed from DMC and it is a shame this (Skyrim) is how you landed on ARPGs.

Here, the ARPG goats are:

Deus Ex
System Shock 2
Arx Fatalis
Morrowind (flawed as fuck, but 10x better than shitrim).
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (why you playing the declined 3D ones bro?)
Fallout: New Vegas (yes, this is completely different in quality than Skyrim, Oblivion & to a lesser extent FO3 almost across the board)
Dark Souls 1 & 2

Runner ups:

Stalker 1 & 3
VTM:B
NDS 2D Castlevanias
Ultima Underworld
Parasite Eve 1 & 2
Severance: Blade of Darkness
Brahma Force
Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams
Vagrant Story
Prey 2017 (with mods)
Many modern Action Roguelites

I am probably missing something.

 

[Tse Tse Fly]

I recently got one of these emulation handhelds. It's the Anbernic RG 35XX Plus. It was £35 on AliExpress.
View attachment 50291

...

I have this one too. You may want to replace the stock SD card with a different one, of a more reliable brand (if you haven't done this already). The sd card that came with my device died after a couple weeks. At first I thought device itself was broken but I tried installing the OS on another sd card and it was working again (I was able to find an image without the games). Also the stock os is functional but pretty limited - for instance you can't transfer games using wi-fi despite that device has it. There are reports that batocera works on it but I haven't tried it myself yet.

 

[PulsatingBrain]

I recently got one of these emulation handhelds. It's the Anbernic RG 35XX Plus. It was £35 on AliExpress.
View attachment 50291

...

I have this one too. You may want to replace the stock SD card with a different one, of a more reliable brand (if you haven't done this already). The sd card that came with my device died after a couple weeks. At first I thought device itself was broken but I tried installing the OS on another sd card and it was working again (I was able to find an image without the games). Also the stock os is functional but pretty limited - for instance you can't transfer games using wi-fi despite that device has it. There are reports that batocera works on it but I haven't tried it myself yet.

Aye I've been looking into this. i have an SD card reader on the way, and a Sandisk card for replacing the original here now, so I'm in the process. I just hope the current one doesn't die before I finish Pokemon Emerald. I'm really enjoying it.

 

[Machocruz]

DMC is the polar opposite with a quality over quantity approach, all its content has very explicit purpose & cohesion, it is somewhat linear, minimal rehashing - a few levels toward the end only in 1 & 3, and this was already pushing it. DMC 2 and 4 rehash a fuckton in a very lame way however, but I digress. Freedom? Which upgrade to buy first, which combat methods to use, how thorough to be with the sprinkles of side content. Otherwise Skyrim couldn't be further removed from DMC and it is a shame this (Skyrim) is how you landed on ARPGs.

Here, the ARPG goats are:

Deus Ex
System Shock 2
Arx Fatalis
Morrowind (flawed as fuck, but 10x better than shitrim).
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (why you playing the declined 3D ones bro?)
Fallout: New Vegas (yes, this is completely different in quality than Skyrim, Oblivion & to a lesser extent FO3 almost across the board)
Dark Souls 1 & 2

Runner ups:

Stalker 1 & 3
VTM:B
NDS 2D Castlevanias
Ultima Underworld
Parasite Eve 1 & 2
Severance: Blade of Darkness
Brahma Force
Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams
Vagrant Story
Many modern Action Roguelites

I am probably missing something.

Ys: The Oath in Felghana and Origins. Some of the newer ones, like Ys VIII, are supposedly very good too
Dragons Dogma: Dark Arisen
Divine Divinity - caveat: Lots of Diablo 2-esque click spam combat. But much better RPGness in other areas like quests, characters, skills.
Dark Messiah of Might and Magic
Nioh 2

Maybe:

Castlevania: Circle of the Moon - Don't remember if this had attributes like SotN or not, so maybe not an action-rpg. But a damn fine and often underrated vania-of-metroid.

 

[Ash]

DMC is the polar opposite with a quality over quantity approach, all its content has very explicit purpose & cohesion, it is somewhat linear, minimal rehashing - a few levels toward the end only in 1 & 3, and this was already pushing it. DMC 2 and 4 rehash a fuckton in a very lame way however, but I digress. Freedom? Which upgrade to buy first, which combat methods to use, how thorough to be with the sprinkles of side content. Otherwise Skyrim couldn't be further removed from DMC and it is a shame this (Skyrim) is how you landed on ARPGs.

Here, the ARPG goats are:

Deus Ex
System Shock 2
Arx Fatalis
Morrowind (flawed as fuck, but 10x better than shitrim).
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (why you playing the declined 3D ones bro?)
Fallout: New Vegas (yes, this is completely different in quality than Skyrim, Oblivion & to a lesser extent FO3 almost across the board)
Dark Souls 1 & 2

Runner ups:

Stalker 1 & 3
VTM:B
NDS 2D Castlevanias
Ultima Underworld
Parasite Eve 1 & 2
Severance: Blade of Darkness
Brahma Force
Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams
Vagrant Story
Many modern Action Roguelites

I am probably missing something.

Ys: The Oath in Felghana and Origins. Some of the newer ones, like Ys VIII, are supposedly very good too
Dragons Dogma: Dark Arisen
Divine Divinity - caveat: Lots of Diablo 2-esque click spam combat. But much better RPGness in other areas like quests, characters, skills.
Dark Messiah of Might and Magic
Nioh 2

Maybe:

Castlevania: Circle of the Moon - Don't remember if this had attributes like SotN or not, so maybe not an action-rpg. But a damn fine and often underrated vania-of-metroid.

Dark Messiah meh. Honestly while it is a nice respectable-ish effort I would not recommend it to anyone even as a runner up. IDK I am salty about the second half of the game, which I found to be terribly bland, boring and seemingly rushed. Still, I don't object. It's not a bad game.

Circle of the Moon has stats, though the overall RPG gameplay implementation is very limited compared to games like SotN which are already bordering not-RPGs. And yes, it is pretty solid game indeed. Certainly one of the genuine classics of the gameboy advance, not that there was too much competition.

Thanks for the other contributions. I've not played them, or not for more than a demo in DD's case. Maybe it is time I fix that. I did try one Ys game, don't recall which, but I found it lacking. However, that is merely one game in a massive series so I have nothing resembling valid opinion or insight just yet.

 

[Ash]

Checked my library. The Ys game I tried is the one you recommend above. I only played it for an hour and found it all uninspired, a little braindead, and bland. Since YOU like and recommend it, as someone respectable that actually knows his games around here instead of talking bullshit nonsense, I am going to assume I am wrong about the game, that I judged it too early and it evolves over time like most good games do. I may even give it another shot.

 

[Average Manatee]

Played some HoMM3 maps as Castle and Dungeon, now i'm trying out Might&Magic 6\7\8 merge mod.

The merge mod seriously destroys the balance of these games.

How badly? If it turns your party OP i don't mind cuz i suck at these games anyway.

It means you're adding MM7's skill changes to MM6 (grandmastery of skills, armsmaster boosting physicals, items boosting skills, class limitations on skill levels). I'd say that MM6 is the only difficult one of the series so this is a lot to imbalance that. On the other hand MM6 has notoriously bad class balance between physicals and casters and these changes do a lot to fix that so it's kind of up to you. The other thing is that you get a 5 man party rather than 4 man in both MM6/7 which is obviously just pure power creep.

If you're going to play multiple games with the same party they'll be overlevelled, there is some kind of enemy boosting thing that is supposed to counteract that but I have my doubts and I see no reason to do that since the leveling/exploration part of the games are the fun part. Grinding through low level dungeons in MM7/8 with a level 100 party seems like it'd be a very soulless experience to me.

 

[Machocruz]

Checked my library. The Ys game I tried is the one you recommend above. I only played it for an hour and found it all uninspired, a little braindead, and bland. Since YOU like and recommend it, as someone respectable that actually knows his games around here instead of talking bullshit nonsense, I am going to assume I am wrong about the game, that I judged it too early and it evolves over time. I may even give it another shot.

Don't assume you're wrong, just adjust for personal taste/tolerance. It's "braindead" in that it's all twitch, all the time and nothing else. I'm fine with it, still a fan of arcade and old console actioners. Yeah the games you listed have more substance, but I wanted something to represent the action extreme of action-rpg, and Ys is that game. Even the Igavanias (better games to be sure) are like methodical combat simulations in comparison to the coked up speed of Ys.

Dark Messiah just worked for me. It's a Goldilocks arpg, not too little or too much of the Action or RPG, and that's the aside from fun and often humorous combat, immersive-simesque atmosphere and level design, physics, interactivity, sense of (at times) swashbuckling adventure etc.. Fine length, not too long or short. I didn't try the mage path though, maybe it's boring. But not being in the same league as "runner ups" like Ultima Underworld (it's superior, groundbreaking influence) or freaking Vagrant Story is something I can accept.

 

[Ash]

Checked my library. The Ys game I tried is the one you recommend above. I only played it for an hour and found it all uninspired, a little braindead, and bland. Since YOU like and recommend it, as someone respectable that actually knows his games around here instead of talking bullshit nonsense, I am going to assume I am wrong about the game, that I judged it too early and it evolves over time. I may even give it another shot.

Don't assume you're wrong, just adjust for personal taste/tolerance. It's "braindead" in that it's all twitch, all the time and nothing else. I'm fine with it, still a fan of arcade and old console actioners.

But not all classic console action is all twitch. More like half of the games were that, and half more methodical.

Perhaps you're right, I am not a fan of a lot of arcade dead-simple shit. I certainly like twitch and arcade elements but there needs to be more complexity than pressing two buttons over and over and nothing else to it.

Fine length, not too long or short

Complaints of "too long" make zero sense. There is such a thing as too short for sure. But too long? It doesn't exist. If a game outstays its welcome it is because its content failed to deliver. Deus Ex is twice the length of Dark Messiah, for example. And yet leaves you wanting more. So while theoretically it can exist as no game can be infinitely good, no such game has been made yet, the games that are percieved to be "too long" are merely shit games in the first place or ones that fell apart at some point.

Anyways, thanks for the clarification as well as acknowledgement that Ys is not in the same league as some of the others mentioned.

 

[Silverfish]

it is a shame this (Skyrim) is how you landed on ARPGs.

It wasn't. I was balls deep in the Souls games and even, for better or worse, Kingdoms of Amalur before ever trying Skyrim.

 

[Ash]

So you have an appreciation for true RPGs. Dark Souls is great but it isn't a "real" RPG that's for sure, though I have no problem with it being defined as an ARPG nonetheless. To find value in Skyrim you must have been dazzled by its freedom, lots of skills, level of interactivity etc - it has the blood of a true RPG, but dumbed down and diluted to the point there is no value left. Try Arx Fatalis and Morrowind and STICK WITH THEM to see what a real fantasy action RPG with substance + PC and TTRPG faithfulness looks like. Skyrim has almost zero net positive upside over them, aside from graphics. Some would say combat and while it has some better functionality in that regard (feedback, mechanics), it is unfortunately dumb as shit, unchallenging and repetitive, which is not so much a trait of older ARPG. It's also easier to grasp but that isn't really a good thing - Arx and MW aren't rocket science they just have a slightly steeper learning curve. No big deal. I would say play Arx Fatalis first. PC or Xbox version, doesn't matter too much. Both are good. PC version is marginally better but they are both essentially the same game.

And yeah, also play Symphony of the Night. Simply a must-play game if you like Japanese ARPG like Dork Souls. Hell, it's just a must-play game, period.

 

[Silverfish]

it has the blood of a true RPG, but dumbed down and diluted to the point there is no value left.

Yeah, I'm well aware. I'm just saying that I dig the fighting, the game as a whole isn't that great.

Try Arx Fatalis and Morrowind

Eventually. Since joining the Codex, my list of shit to try out has almost doubled.

 

[Ash]

The combat isn't even good though. Both your health and mana regenerate, removing all resource strategy and making it a pretty braindead affair. This is probably the single biggest issue. You can't jump while sprinting which removes that option as a tactic in combat. Crouching doesn't actually do anything, it just moves the camera down but your collision remains upright, so using crouch to cover as a tactical option in combat is moot and there can be no crawlspaces either. There is the dual-wield system, but this is actually more restrictive in ways than Morrowind and Oblivion where you could hold a shield, sword and magic all on demand instead of being stuck to only two. You could also cast magic while holding a bow in oblivion. not an option here. Also the method of switching hands/weapons is utterly painful with that time-pausing favorites list. Modern trash-tier design over user-defined real time next/prev lists and shortcuts. Shouts help a lot to diversify the combat over older offerings, but that's literally it's only saving grace alongside presentation. The AI is fairly decent, though nothing remarkable. Certainly better than Morrowind's but there isn't really anything that makes it better than what Arx Fatalis offers. Slightly better overall but really not much to speak of. In fact the Lich in Arx casts a wide range of spells while the equivalent in Skyrim will have two at best. Flying dragons I suppose was mildly impressive, but this is merely 1% of the game. Archery is somewhat more satisfying in Skyrim, but also pretty OP and still just a shitty version of a proper FPS just like the others.

An action RPG either needs really good twitch combat (not skyrim), or lots of micromanagement and strategic number crunching combat (not skyrim), or at least a middle ground between the two (not skyrim). The combat is utter shit. All the games I recommended have better combat in some form or other, even Arx and Morrowind which are the worst of the bunch in that regard. Morrowind combat is unsatisfying and after 20 hours or so you are an OP god, but it's still more interesting than the braindead-simple shit in Skyrim where your vital resources constantly regenerate and there is zero strategy or skill to most of it.

You've played Dark Souls, so you have an idea what respectable combat looks like. It's not the best thing ever, the stats don't mean much, lock-on shit is gay, and weapons aren't much different to each other despite the choice offering. However, it is actually challenging, cohesive design. Not mindless. Both strategy and skill are relevant. That's the main thing.

Let me put Skyrim's alleged mechanical depth to rest with Castlevania SotN from 1997:

here you also have a dual wield system for weapons, shields and throwables.
You can also cast all magic on demand. No switching hands neccessary. Some magic also has multiple input types or stages to the spell (fireball).
Weapons have special input combos on top of simple attack spam.
There are sub weapons you can also use at any time on demand.
There are transformations on demand (wolf, bat, mist), though only mist adds really combat depth but whatever.
There is conjuration of summons similar to Skyrim to assist you in combat which have their own level up system, but don't break the game here. Not overpowered like TES conjuration.
Finally, additional special moves you can use at any time (flying kick, super jump, backdash, double jump).

Makes Skyrim look like kiddie shit when it comes to combat, especially when it is actually a somewhat challenging game too (e.g no health regen). True, a lot of it is reduced in depth as a result of soul steal, but this is at least hard to cast and steals a lot of MP, and not available for 1/3rd of the game.

 

[Machocruz]

Complaints of "too long" make zero sense. There is such a thing as too short for sure. But too long? It doesn't exist. If a game outstays its welcome it is because its content failed to deliver. Deus Ex is twice the length of Dark Messiah, for example. And yet leaves you wanting more. So while theoretically it can exist as no game can be infinitely good, no such game has been made yet, the games that are percieved to be "too long" are merely shit games in the first place or ones that fell apart at some point.

Somewhat agree, but I didn't offer a complaint, yet. I do believe that games structured as a "story" should provide a cathartic arc, which means there must be closure at some point, a final and definite end/win state. I decided, subjectively, that Dark Messiah has a good length as justified by what it offers and doesn't, and I don't think a optimal point of closure for that game was in another 20 hours. It's far more limited than something like Deus Ex, which is wider, deeper, and more dynamic than it, most of the games we mentioned, and most other games ever made, which is why not only is not too long, people keep coming back to it to get even more. It keeps escalating and delivering new intrigues for most if not all of its duration, which is rare, as is the fact that people still find or do new things with every playthrough. It's one of the exemplars of PC gaming for reasons

Many games are merely shit, fail to deliver, or fall apart at some point. Games have been made that overstay their welcome that aren't what most would call shit, though I suppose a case can be made that they are. I got tired of RE4 well before it was over, it went on past the point where it offered anything new that was interesting or satisfying. Bayonetta was more even throughout, but also long in the tooth for a glorified beat 'em up. Action games in general are too limited and static to warrant a long duration. Thief: TDP fell apart to me in the last couple of missions, but otherwise no one can tell me it's not one of the greatest games ever made.

On the flipside are what I consider "forever games", like Dwarf Fortress, Cataclysm DDA, X-Com: UD. They have the content to sustain near endless amount of hours on one new-game, and the player has more power to decide when they end, if at all.

 

[Silverfish]

Both your health and mana regenerate, removing all resource strategy and making it a pretty braindead affair.

HP regeneration is incredibly slow and won't save you in combat. Your inherent healing can't outpace even the weakest enemies' damage. Mana regeneration is, presumably, Beth throwing a bone to destruction players and is in fact the only one they get.

Crouching doesn't actually do anything, it just moves the camera down but your collision remains upright, so using crouch to cover as a tactical option in combat is moot

Beth have never been shy about the fact that crouching in their games exists purely to set up stealth kills. Moreover, Gears of War or Mass Effect style cover would be pointless since ranged combat is either done in stealth or is used to set up some kind of debilitating effect (poisons of slow or frenzy) before engaging in melee.

Shouts help a lot to diversify the combat

They really don't. Most shouts are just mana-free versions of traditional spells. Those that aren't offer only minor benefits.

Let me put Skyrim's alleged mechanical depth to rest with Castlevania SotN from 1997:

Crazy that Skyrim falls short of the best game ever made.

There are transformations on demand (wolf, bat, mist)

Yeah, Skyrim has that as well with the werewolf and vampire lord forms. Both of which are more useful that SotN's wolf transformation, but also not as gamebreaking as the mist.

 

[Ash]

Crazy that Skyrim falls short of the best game ever made.

It falls short of many RPGs.

SotN is a great game, but it isn't some outlier. See back then there were MANY games of its caliber, some arguably even better, but people choose to remain ignorant. What more can I say? Play the games and then come back, please. It would be an honor to bestow you with your official RPG Codex monocle.

Wait, why even be here if your love and understanding of RPGs is that limited to the point you think Skyrim is a good game? Though to be honest I don't even think RPG experience is required to be able to acknowledge it's a banal shit boring game, just a respectable path through gaming history in general, and some of your action game picks there are fairly respectable + you even have SotN there.

They really don't. Most shouts are just mana-free versions of traditional spells. Those that aren't offer only minor benefits.

Absolutely, but by diversify I mean mechanical options on-demand. Without shouts the only options in combat outside of movement would be your two hands (which without mods you have to constantly switch between using that godawful favorites menu). This adds a third variable on demand. This is unique over other FP Fantasy RPGs. e.g Ultima Underworld has magic and hands only. Arx too. Morrowind too. This isn't the case for all RPGs, but FP Fantasy aRPGs yes. Shouts are conceptually a good addition and one of the few scraps of praise you'll ever see me afford this shit game.

 

[Silverfish]

Wait, why even be here if your love of and understanding of RPGs is that limited to the point you think Skyrim is a good game?

1. I found the Codex through No Mutants Allowed and dug that the atmosphere was similar, but the topics were broader. I also figured I'd be a poor fit for RPGNet.

2. I didn't say Skyrim was a good game, I said it had good combat.

 

[Ash]

But...you know what good or acceptable combat actually is! DMC, SotN, Dark Souls is a fairly solid point of reference on the Japanese side of things. Yet on the western side of game dev it seems you only play bad or mediocre games? You've championed Goldeneye, Skyrim, Timesplitters among others, this is a really piss-poor representation of what western devs are capable of.

 

[Silverfish]

You've championed Goldeneye, Skyrim, Timesplitters among others, this is a really piss-poor representation of what western devs are capable of.

Don't be silly. I've also championed Halo, Mass Effect and Call of Duty.

 

[Ash]

Halo and Call of Duty are not the worst things ever when you take them for what they are. They are the complete and total decline of singleplayer, however their real focus is multiplayer and they both made major contributions/innovations to that style of gaming for whatever that is worth (for me as a singleplayer guy, not much). Mass Effect however is absolute shit, please bro come on.

In the late 90s/early 2000s there was a handful of absolute masterpieces of Action RPG. Deus Ex, Castlevania: SotN, System Shock 2, Arx Fatalis, Morrowind (flawed masterpiece) and so forth. The level of incline was off the charts and many of these games still remain among the finest the industry ever produced. There was otherwise lots of good but not goated respectable efforts, like VTM:B and Parasite Eve 2.
Then came along the late 2000s in which there was absolute decline of all the things, but perhaps what declined most of all was the action RPG: Oblivion, Mass Effect, Bioshock, Fable. You simply cannot understand how bad these games were by comparison to what came before. And even without that point of reference they're still godawful games, it's wild how popular they all are. It took the goddamn Ukrainians of all people to produce something of value (STALKER), and even that is still ultimately eastern european jank at the end of the day.