Incline What would have to happen for a 2nd cRPG Renaissance?

[Morpheus Kitami]

It's a miracle none of the major writers were killed in action, but some were badly damaged like Kornbluth and Walter M. Miller.

Is it? For all we know there could have been a great sci-fi writer among those who were killed in a war, its just we never got to see it because well, they're dead.

 

[Forseti]

In the mid-budget RPG space, on the other hand, writers seem to think they're writing a novel rather than a game. And not a particularly good one at that. Paragraphs upon paragraphs of exposition dumped upon you before you even begin the game properly. Pillars of Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera are the worst offenders. SO. MUCH. TEXT. And most of it isn't even relevant to what happens in the game at all. I don't even hate long text by itself, Morrowind is one of my favorite games ever and it dumps a lot of lore on you too... but that lore usually refers to things you actually find in the game, while Pillars and Numanuma waste hundreds of thousands of words telling you what other parts of the world look like, which you will never ever get to see. Words words words words but none of these words have any relation to what your character is doing in the game.

The quality of writing matters a lot. I mean like the dialogue, the descriptions, the prose.

E.g. practically every line in Disco Elysium is a joy to read. Finishing a clever conversation tree puts a giant fucking smile on my face. I marvel at every overindulgent musing on the cold wind, or the sad sack world, or alcohol, or whatever. It's entertaining because someone talented took care to make it interesting. The MASSIVE TEXT DUMP isn't a chore because it's just so good - even when the lore doesn't directly affect anything you encounter as a player.

The text dumps in other games often do feel like a chore because they're just okay. They serve their purpose, but they don't entertain.

 

[mondblut]

Cook served in the United States Navy from 1962 to 1972 and specifically was attached, for a time, to a Marine Force Recon unit, the 3rd Marine Battalion.[2] During his time attached to the Force Recon Unit, Cook participated in what he called "practice combat", and left active duty, "a month before [the unit] shipped out to Viet Nam".[3]

Good old Glen barely dodged it.

Lin Carter, according to wiki, served in Korean war.

 

[wishbonetail]

First renaissance was marked by transition to RTS gameplay. Second will be with VR FPS gameplay. Rejoice.

 

[perfectslumbers]

If RPGS becoming good through technological innovation is what is required for an RPG renaissance then there will never be a second one, unless robots somehow become better game designers than humans. RPGS are defined by abstraction but the vast majority of gaming technology is dedicated to making games more real and less abstract. I don't see any way that VR or smellovision or cheap ai voice acting or high quality motion controls will make RPG's better, unless every RPG becomes a hyper realistic sword fight simulator.

 

[Van-d-all]

Disco Elysium knock offs like the one Sawyer is working on right now will be classified to be a part of the "2nd crpg renaissance".

Maybe on ResetEra... Sawyer is way too stiff & dry to achieve the kind of narrative flexibility present in Disco's writing.

Realistically, to consider renaissance I'd have to see such a modern 2d cRPG reach a massive commercial popularity, one which would spark the typical game industry "copy success" mechanism into spawning an entire trend of such games (bit like the birth of Kickstarter did). As such, it's virtually impossible. Firstly, even modern, successful, technically apt games like D:OS2 don't reach such levels (though it did boost the isometric game market a little). Secondly, what kickstarter failures and poor Pillows/Tranny sales already proven, nostalgia is not enough; 2d games are simply not appealing for modern audiences and that's where the market lies. Lastly, game industry is an industry like any other, it technologically moves on, and waiting for a 2d cRPG renaissance is akin to waiting for a VHS renaissance.

 

[BruceVC]

If RPGS becoming good through technological innovation is what is required for an RPG renaissance then there will never be a second one, unless robots somehow become better game designers than humans. RPGS are defined by abstraction but the vast majority of gaming technology is dedicated to making games more real and less abstract. I don't see any way that VR or smellovision or cheap ai voice acting or high quality motion controls will make RPG's better, unless every RPG becomes a hyper realistic sword fight simulator.

But VR would definitely improve Bioware Romance dont you think

 

[Lord_Potato]

The only fantasy writers with actual combat experience were J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis.

Aside from Tolkien and Lewis, Lord Dunsany (Edward Plunkett) served in the Boer War and again in the Great War (despite being in his late 30s), William Hope Hodgson died in the Great War (despite being older than Lord Dunsany; admittedly his fantasy works were written earlier), Edgar Rice Burroughs served for one year in the military (it didn't agree with him, and he used family connections to receive a discharge) and later was a war correspondent in the South Pacific during WWII, Mervyn Peake served in World War II from 1940-2, and Gene Wolfe served in the Korean War. Not sure if ERB or Peake ever saw combat, though. For that matter, Jack Vance joined the merchant marine in 1943 (poor eyesight prevented military service), Harlan Ellison was drafted into the army in 1957 and served for two years (but he isn't usually considered a fantasy writer), and Roger Zelazny joined the Army Reserve to avoid the draft.

Plunkett and Hodgson - ok, I give you that. I guess I don't really consider authors before Tolkien as actual fantasy writers

Burroughs did not seem to see much, or any combat action. Neither military secret services (OSS) nor the Navy wanted him, was quickly discharged due to mental issues and self-mutilation.

I found no evidence of combat experience of Peake, in 1942 he suffered a nervous breakdown and was sent to hospital. Later he created war propaganda for the Ministry of Information.

Gene Wolfe did actually fight. Ellison served during peacetime.

Frankly, I don't really see major difference in quality of writing between writers who fought, performed their wartime duties in civil branches of government or completely avoided the draft. It's all a matter of talent and inspiration. Personal experience might help but in the end is not required, as proven by Karl May, a prolific author novels set in American Old West, who never visited the region in his whole life :D

 

[Chippy]

Nuke all the millenials and gen:z from orbit. Then follow up with sociel media, and start the generation alphabet again with 'A'. Look at the latest reviews on Steam for BG1&2: most players can't even read these days. Hitting my word count already with this post in terms of TL:DR.

Basically Tyranicon just need to create a Skyrim PRG and then allow it to be modded with sex scenes for every perversion, and then ensure modders can copy > paste 3d characters from other games into his RPG.

Then take the money and buy an island somewhere. Maybe give me a few percent for predicting the future. But the renaissance wont come again.

 

[JarlFrank]

In the mid-budget RPG space, on the other hand, writers seem to think they're writing a novel rather than a game. And not a particularly good one at that. Paragraphs upon paragraphs of exposition dumped upon you before you even begin the game properly. Pillars of Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera are the worst offenders. SO. MUCH. TEXT. And most of it isn't even relevant to what happens in the game at all. I don't even hate long text by itself, Morrowind is one of my favorite games ever and it dumps a lot of lore on you too... but that lore usually refers to things you actually find in the game, while Pillars and Numanuma waste hundreds of thousands of words telling you what other parts of the world look like, which you will never ever get to see. Words words words words but none of these words have any relation to what your character is doing in the game.

The quality of writing matters a lot. I mean like the dialogue, the descriptions, the prose.

E.g. practically every line in Disco Elysium is a joy to read. Finishing a clever conversation tree puts a giant fucking smile on my face. I marvel at every overindulgent musing on the cold wind, or the sad sack world, or alcohol, or whatever. It's entertaining because someone talented took care to make it interesting. The MASSIVE TEXT DUMP isn't a chore because it's just so good - even when the lore doesn't directly affect anything you encounter as a player.

The text dumps in other games often do feel like a chore because they're just okay. They serve their purpose, but they don't entertain.

But despite its writing quality, Disco Elysium would be complete shit if it were a linear JRPG without dialogue choices.

 

[JarlFrank]

Lin Carter, according to wiki, served in Korean war.

Ah, good old Lin!

Also, tasteful fantasy porn:

 

[Cross]

One thing to consider is that for old-school gamers of the 90s it wasn't Renaissance but steep decline dominated by Diablo-clones and popamole shooter wannabes. So if another Renaissance happened, the Codex would likely be the last place to acknowledge it. It might very well be that old-school gamers of late 2020s will lament the golden age of such classic RPGs as Skyrim, Witcher 3 and Breath of the Wild.

The indie and AA boom of around 2013 was more of a reinassance than what 1997 ever was, and the Codex hasn't recognized it yet.

Grimrock 2
Expeditions: Conquistador
NEO Scavenger
Heroine's Quest
The Age of Decadence
Dungeon Rats
Underrail
Grimoire
Kenshi
Battle Brothers
Atom RPG
Legends of Amberland
A Legionary's Life

Among many, many others.

How are the games you listed 'more of a renaissance' than what came out in the late 90's/early 2000's?

You list 3 blobbers, Grimrock 2, Grimoire and Legends of Amberland, but the cRPG renaissance had at least twice that many (and arguably better ones at that): Wizardry 8, Wizards & Warriors, Might & Magic 6, 7, 8 and 9.

I thought the combat in Battle Brothers was pretty boring. It isn't anywhere near as good as Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm or Temple of Elemental Evil (even in its poor original release state). You would have been better off mentioning something like Blackguards, which has much more enjoyable combat than Battle Brothers.

 

[V_K]

You list 3 blobbers, Grimrock 2, Grimoire and Legends of Amberland, but the cRPG renaissance had at least twice that many (and arguably better ones at that): Wizardry 8, Wizards & Warriors, Might & Magic 6, 7, 8 and 9.

Well, if you want to list all the blobbers (which, going by inclusion of M&M8-9, you seem to), there's also Grimrock 1 and a boatload of its clones, M&M10, Bard's Tale 4, Operencia, 7 Mages, Starcrawlers, Paper Sorcerer, Vaporum...

 

[JarlFrank]

Grimrock 1 and a boatload of its clones

DM/EoB style real time puzzle blobbers, pff

Wiz and M&M style blobbers are a lot better

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Responding to the OP: A long term global crisis due to the exhaustion of high atomic number metals mines. (hafnium, tantalum, palladium, etc.)

 

[V_K]

Grimrock 1 and a boatload of its clones

DM/EoB style real time puzzle blobbers, pff

Wiz and M&M style blobbers are a lot better

Later Wiz yes, but I'd take a proper DM-style game over any MM or early Wiz any day.
Anyway, not the point.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Is it? For all we know there could have been a great sci-fi writer among those who were killed in a war, its just we never got to see it because well, they're dead.

It's worth noting that Stanislaw Lem was born in 1921 and just barely survived World War II. There's no telling how many potential Lems, among the many millions of dead from both World Wars, remain unknown due to having their lives cut short.

Plunkett and Hodgson - ok, I give you that. I guess I don't really consider authors before Tolkien as actual fantasy writers

Better not to consider Tolkien as an actual fantasy author.

Anyway, there are other notable fantasy authors with military service such as Lin Carter, who served in the Korean War, or Glen Cook, who served in the navy for a decade during the Vietnam War. Not to mention a number of science fiction authors, such as Robert Heinlein who graduated from the US Naval Academy in 1929 and served until contracting pulmonary tuberculosis in 1933, Cordwainer Smith who served in the army during World War II and was sent to China in 1943 to coordinate intelligence operations, C.M. Kornbluth who had started writing SF professionally in 1940 but joined the army shortly after Pearl Harbor and fought in France and Germany in 1944-5 as a result of which he contracted a medical condition that led to his death in 1958, Arthur C. Clarke who served with the RAF from 1941-6, and Joe Haldeman who served in Vietnam as a combat engineer and was wounded.

Frankly, I don't really see major difference in quality of writing between writers who fought, performed their wartime duties in civil branches of government or completely avoided the draft. It's all a matter of talent and inspiration. Personal experience might help but in the end is not required, as proven by Karl May, a prolific author novels set in American Old West, who never visited the region in his whole life :D

I wouldn't assert that military service is necessary to write fantasy or SF, but it can be beneficial for certain types of stories and also can have a great influence on an author's writings, as was the case for Tolkien. Incidentally, Karl May, who only visited the United States once and didn't travel further west than Buffalo, was a German author whose novels became popular in Germany but are virtually unknown in the United States.

 

[0wca]

A lowering return of standards

Fixed it for you.

 

[Faarbaute]

I can't help but to think that it isn't technical and creative shortcommings, the lack of real life experience or funding that's holding us back from another "true" RPG renaissance, it's that the majority of game developer types simply don't like these kind of stories anymore.

It's not that they couldn't do it, it's that they don't want to do it.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Aside from Tolkien and Lewis, Lord Dunsany (Edward Plunkett) served in the Boer War and again in the Great War (despite being in his late 30s), William Hope Hodgson died in the Great War (despite being older than Lord Dunsany; admittedly his fantasy works were written earlier), Edgar Rice Burroughs served for one year in the military (it didn't agree with him, and he used family connections to receive a discharge) and later was a war correspondent in the South Pacific during WWII, Mervyn Peake served in World War II from 1940-2, and Gene Wolfe served in the Korean War. Not sure if ERB or Peake ever saw combat, though. For that matter, Jack Vance joined the merchant marine in 1943 (poor eyesight prevented military service), Harlan Ellison was drafted into the army in 1957 and served for two years (but he isn't usually considered a fantasy writer), and Roger Zelazny joined the Army Reserve to avoid the draft.

It's interesting, because WW1 & 2 combat would go to close combat in the trenches which is close enough to HF close combat.

I don't know about his skills but Gemmel knows how to describe combat, he's even very good at it, I didn't make a comparison of combat description though but it'd certainly be interesting.

 

[welly321]

I don't know about that. Andrzej Sapkowski did not fight in any war, George R.R. Martin was a conscientious objector during Vietnam. And still they managed to write pretty solid stories.

Robert E. Howard and H.P. Lovecraft would probably die if you sneezed at them too hard. Neither one was a decent soldier material.

The only fantasy writers with actual combat experience were J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis.

Robert Jorden had combat experience and was a vietnam war veteran.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

How are the games you listed 'more of a renaissance' than what came out in the late 90's/early 2000's?

You list 3 blobbers, Grimrock 2, Grimoire and Legends of Amberland, but the cRPG renaissance had at least twice that many (and arguably better ones at that): Wizardry 8, Wizards & Warriors, Might & Magic 6, 7, 8 and 9.

I thought the combat in Battle Brothers was pretty boring. It isn't anywhere near as good as Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm or Temple of Elemental Evil (even in its poor original release state). You would have been better off mentioning something like Blackguards, which has much more enjoyable combat than Battle Brothers.

Look at your beloved "Renaissance RPGs", look at them well. Top-down games trying to please the RTS and DIablo crowds; first-person games (including blobbers) marketing themselves as pseudo-FPSs; narrative-driven games constantly holding players hands through explicit journal entries and self-contained side-quests, and segregating mechanics from the plot (and thus creating the false combatfaggotry/storyfaggotry dichotomy); even the combatfag games you mention are just top-down tacticool titles with little to no RPG elements. Games that despite appearances were already forgetting about its pen and paper roots,

Now, those were not bad games, and some of them were masterpieces, but they were part of no actual renaissance. High-budget CRPGs can't really scratch the same itches as the old classics because they will inevitably change once suits try to market them to more than a few thousand computer nerds. Those who know what happened to RPGs during the Xbox era can easily relate.

Digital distribution on the other hand allowed an actual Renaissance. During the past decade there were high quality games with nearly zero budget (like NEO Scavenger or A Legionary's Life) competing with well established studios and in some cases outperforming them, subgenres revived, and games became good again. All this right after some of the worst years in gaming.

 

[Cross]

How are the games you listed 'more of a renaissance' than what came out in the late 90's/early 2000's?

You list 3 blobbers, Grimrock 2, Grimoire and Legends of Amberland, but the cRPG renaissance had at least twice that many (and arguably better ones at that): Wizardry 8, Wizards & Warriors, Might & Magic 6, 7, 8 and 9.

I thought the combat in Battle Brothers was pretty boring. It isn't anywhere near as good as Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm or Temple of Elemental Evil (even in its poor original release state). You would have been better off mentioning something like Blackguards, which has much more enjoyable combat than Battle Brothers.

Look at your beloved "Renaissance RPGs", look at them well. Top-down games trying to please the RTS and DIablo crowds

I don't recall SSI, Sir-Tech or Bethesda rushing to make Diablo clones. Almost all Diablo clones were made by developers that weren't making cRPGs at the time. So it's pure speculation to say we missed out on a bunch of great cRPGs because developers chose to make Diablo clones instead. They weren't making cRPGs before so why would they suddenly start?

first-person games (including blobbers) marketing themselves as pseudo-FPSs

How so? Do you mean blobbers abandoning tile-based movement? That was inevitable and was already happening in the first half of the 90's, as seen in SSI's Thunderscape. I'll take a turn-based 'pseudo-FPS' blobber anytime over a tile-based blobber with shitty real-time combat, especially if they're just lazy Dungeon Master clones like Legend of Grimrock.

Since you mentioned first-person RPGs in general, not just blobbers, I'd be curious to hear which indie developers are making RPGs like Arx Fatalis, System Shock 2, Morrowind and Deus Ex.

narrative-driven games constantly holding players hands through explicit journal entries and self-contained side-quests, and segregating mechanics from the plot (and thus creating the false combatfaggotry/storyfaggotry dichotomy)

You mean like Betrayal at Krondor?

even the combatfag games you mention are just top-down tacticool titles with little to no RPG elements.

Calling Battle Brothers an RPG but not Temple of Elemental Evil, Jagged Alliance 2 and Silent Storm makes no sense.

Digital distribution on the other hand allowed an actual Renaissance.

Sure, and I have enjoyed plenty of RPGs that have come out of it. I just don't think the output as a whole is superior to what was coming out in the late 90's/early 2000's.

 

[luj1]

First renaissance

then:

modest conditions + educated talented people + niche audience

now:

millions of dollars + culturally declined talentless hipsters + mass audience

 

[lycanwarrior]

Discerning members of the codex, what would have to occur for you to consider a 2nd cRPG Renaissance at hand?

Global pandemic killing everyone with iq of 110 and below would be a good start.

IQ levels have been dropping for several decades in the US.

The movie "Idiocracy" is becoming real life.

Which affects the kind of entertainment (like video games) that we are getting...