Why do people hate Oblivion so much?

[Serus]

- Oblivion isn't bad because Morrowind (or Skyrim or most other Beth games) sucks as well !
- Oblivion setting is generic and soulless because of technical limitations.
- Oblivion's level scaling isn't completely retarded because if done otherwise it could have been even worse.
- ...

That's in short the "discussion" here for people who don't want to lose time reading 4 pages as I did.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Getting to level 20 is pretty quick if you're playing the intended way. The funny thing is that the intended way will usually fuck you over because you'll get levels faster than your skill increases can catch up to, resulting in what is effectively a level 5 character facing level 20 enemies. RealisticLeveling's author explains it well:

In Vanilla Oblivion, there are many flaws with how attributes and levels advance. These flaws encourage bizarre behaviour to optimise advancement, like avoiding certain skills to delay leveling, intentionally using "out of character" skills to boost attributes, or focusing on endurance skills early to boost your health at later levels. The game turns into an annoying task of micro-managing and tracking skill advancements to "make sure I get +5 strength next level". I find this neither realistic nor fun.

There are also flaws in how attributes and skills are set when starting. Class skills and racial bonuses mean some skills get an initial boost with no regard for how this affects advancement. In practices this initial boost means there is less advancement room left for that skill, which means less advancement opportunity for the corresponding attribute. Stacking your class skills on top of your class specialisation and and race bonuses can give you a high initial skill level, which ironically can mean you cannot max out the corresponding attribute.

Are you implying there's any RPG you can beat without pressing ANY buttons whatsoever?

Do awesome buttons count?

for no fucking good reason I can think of

Tech reasons

Also, in Oblivion's defense it does have this speech written by Michael Kirkbride

On the other hand, a bunch of stuff is wrong (including the line in the thumbnail). We don't know if it's supposed to be in-universe mistakes / Mankar's personal interpretation, or the writer goofed. Someone said that it was an initial draft Kirkbride wrote on a napkin before checking to see if he got all the bullshit fantasy names correctly, that got confused for the finished thing and they didn't feel like paying Terence Stamp to re-record the whole thing.

edit: found it

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:925968

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/posts-kirkbride-pre2006

On writing Mankar Camoran's final speech (06/17/06)

Apropos of nothing, I wasn't paid for Mankor's diatribe. It was in an email I sent to the friendly folks at Bethsoft when I got the "Commentaries" gig. That whole speech came from a section of said email where I attempted to get inside MC's head so I could understand how he might think, and how that thought would translate to his writing.

Turns out, MC writes like me. Ah, well.

Then Todd up and had Terrance Stamp record it at the voiceover sessions. I was pretty surprised-- I wish I'd known or I would've *really* went nuts with it-- but who could ever be mad at something like that? Terrance Freakin Stamp.

Canon or not, my two cents is that MC is completely right, and Tamriel is just another, albeit very special, realm of Oblivion. But don't quote me...I didn't write this in-character.

http://ladynerevar.tumblr.com/post/112209622385/hi-youve-probably-gotten-this-question-before

Michael sent Bethesda a first draft that wasn’t proofread - they thought it was a final draft and put it in the game without checking things themselves. I think we can assume that in Tamriel-actual Mankar gets the assignments right.

There's also the unexplained thing with him being an altmer child of bosmer parents.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Haymon_Camoran

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/refugees

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Defending Oblivion on RPGCodex is a weird hobby to choose.

Buddy you weren't there when he failed at defending fallout3.

P. S.

Game requires a repetitive and tedious usage of your skills in order to gain levels in order to unlock content in order to experience the game. Raising combat skills

Is this dumb shit complaining that you need to meet skill requirements to advance in all them guilds? That's what it seems like. Even that he can't articulate properly.

 

[FeelTheRads]

game requires me to do stuff in order to advance what is this shit

 

[mogwaimon]

game requires me to do stuff in order to advance what is this shit

Oblivion would have been better if they sold a max stats package for like 15 bucks or something so you could have a high level character from the start and avoid all that tedious grinding and questing and dungeon-exploring. You could just run into a glass armor bandit, loot his corpse, and then you'd be set. Great value

 

[Sigourn]

Is this dumb shit complaining that you need to meet skill requirements to advance in all them guilds? That's what it seems like. Even that he can't articulate properly.

It's more retarded than that: he says the combat constitutes grinding because he doesn't like it.

 

[PulsatingBrain]

Oblivion fucked them into the dirt with it's extremely nuanced combat system, and they're still salty all these years later

 

[mfkndggrfll]

Is this dumb shit complaining that you need to meet skill requirements to advance in all them guilds? That's what it seems like. Even that he can't articulate properly.

It's more retarded than that: he says the combat constitutes grinding because he doesn't like it.

The combat in Morrowind is technically the worst of the series. It is the one combat system that requires the less player input and is the least engaging. Fighting in Morrowind is like digging blocks in Minecrap.

 

[Citizen]

It is the one combat system that requires the less player input and is the least engaging.

Also very stat dependent. Like it's some RPG or something.

 

[mfkndggrfll]

It is the one combat system that requires the less player input and is the least engaging.

Also very stat dependent. Like it's some RPG or something.

But we all know it isnt.

 

[Okagron]

It is the one combat system that requires the less player input and is the least engaging.

Also very stat dependent. Like it's some RPG or something.

But we all know it isnt.

It sure as hell is more of a RPG than Oblivion.

Here's the combat of Oblivion for enemies with weapons and melee attacks:
Raise your shield
The enemy hits it because the AI is stupid
They get staggered
Swipe with your weapon around 3 or 4 times during that time
Repeat this process until every enemy is dead

Here's the combat for every other enemy:
Spam the attack button until they die

There's the occasional case of you getting staggered five times in a row even with 100 Agility, even through blocking, because the balancing in Oblivion is utter trash.

Oh and blocking with a dagger totally makes sense. Specially love when my characters gets staggered from hitting a dagger.

 

[mfkndggrfll]

It is the one combat system that requires the less player input and is the least engaging.

Also very stat dependent. Like it's some RPG or something.

But we all know it isnt.

It sure as hell is more of a RPG than Oblivion.

Here's the combat of Oblivion for enemies with weapons and melee attacks:
Raise your shield
The enemy hits it because the AI is stupid
They get staggered
Swipe with your weapon around 3 or 4 times during that time
Repeat this process until every enemy is dead

Here's the combat for every other enemy:
Spam the attack button until they die

There's the occasional case of you getting staggered five times in a row even with 100 Agility, even through blocking, because the balancing in Oblivion is utter trash.

Oh and blocking with a dagger totally makes sense. Specially love when my characters gets staggered from hitting a dagger.

Here's the combat of Morrowind for enemies:

Aim enemy with mouse
Click mouse
Repeat

 

[Sigourn]

The combat in Morrowind is technically the worst of the series.

Out of the three modern TES games, it has the best combat technically speaking, and easily the best mechanically speaking. Technically, because it achieves what it sets out to do. Mechanically, because the mechanics actually matter and are suited to an RPG.

It is the one combat system that requires the less player input and is the least engaging. Fighting in Morrowind is like digging blocks in Minecrap.

Now you are moving goalposts. Does it require less player input? Yes. Is it the least engaging? Depends on what you call "engaging". It is the one that requires less player input, so it isn't as engaging (purely speaking gameplay here) as Skyrim's is, where you are required to dodge and block by yourself. But it is the most engaging to me from how much fun do I get out of it. Which isn't to say it is the best combat ever, because Gothic is much more engaging (than Skyrim) from a gameplay point of view, and much more engaging (than Morrowind) from how much fun do I get out of it. And the best thing is that it is proper action RPG combat.

 

[Bigg Boss]

That feeling when you realize it's Mxyzlfeck that made the thread.

 

[theSavant]

Oblivion... I remember it... bad times:

I got lost in the starter dungeon. Spent hours, days, months in it and couldn't find a way out. Even though the pointer on the map showed the approximate direction, I couldn't find the exit. I remember there was this long corridor which had outdoor light at its end. But from the distance I also saw that this light was blocked by bars. No reason to go to a blocked exit, eh? So I looked further and further and further for the real exit... DAMN THIS FUCKING CORRIDOR

 

[Squid]

I'll appreciate Oblivion for what I've stated before around here, nostalgia. It was the first thing that was RPG-esque that got me into more of the better RPGs out there (well I kept trying the new ones that were even worse before that happened but Oblivion was the start and my favorite for awhile).

Critically speaking there's a plethora of things wrong with the game. I like the game for the time that I played it and enjoyed it very much but I can't dismiss any of it's flaws.

My biggest beefs with the game are things like:

The best way to level up was to choose Major skills as skills you won't use until you're wanting to level up so you stay as low level as possible to avoid stupid Goblin Chieftans and the mage ones from being too annoying. I'm not saying the game is too hard, because I played the game plenty and rarely died without being a doofus on purpose. It's just annoying to be level 50 or whatever and have to deal with Goblins near and in every dungeon that were just stupidly powerful compared to other enemies.

Lack of NPCs due to voice acting, super specific scripting that attempted to make them seem more lifelike (which was an interesting IDEA but didn't really matter too much later on even as a thief). This just led them to be slightly more interesting than what you expected because they all had some weird crazy shit to say to you in a weird voice acted line but took away from the feel of any town and city.

No choices besides skills. You can be master of every guild, the best in the Arena, etc. Even later on in the game you learn that if you just pumped time into certain skills you don't need another kinda thing, the first that comes to mind is Heavy Armor vs. Light Armor. Heavy Armor eventually is what I'd say is objectively better. I think you get a bonus at 75 that makes it near noiseless so even a thief could use it with 100 sneak well enough to do anything you need to in the game.

 

[mfkndggrfll]

The combat in Morrowind is technically the worst of the series.

Out of the three modern TES games, it has the best combat technically speaking, and easily the best mechanically speaking. Technically, because it achieves what it sets out to do. Mechanically, because the mechanics actually matter and are suited to an RPG.

It is the one combat system that requires the less player input and is the least engaging. Fighting in Morrowind is like digging blocks in Minecrap.

Now you are moving goalposts. Does it require less player input? Yes. Is it the least engaging? Depends on what you call "engaging". It is the one that requires less player input, so it isn't as engaging (purely speaking gameplay here) as Skyrim's is, where you are required to dodge and block by yourself. But it is the most engaging to me from how much fun do I get out of it. Which isn't to say it is the best combat ever, because Gothic is much more engaging (than Skyrim) from a gameplay point of view, and much more engaging (than Morrowind) from how much fun do I get out of it. And the best thing is that it is proper action RPG combat.

Nope, its the worst combat, and by far. The combat is the game's biggest flaw actually. The game truely is an ARPG, so the mechanics feel out of place.

"But it is the most engaging to me from how much fun do I get out of it. "

Thats not an argument, try again.

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

The game truely is an ARPG

This is breathtakingly stupid

 

[typical user]

Stat based combat and FPP do not mix together very well in my opinion. Unless you take your god damn time and resources and make it obvious that you swing slower than needed or pull string of your bow for a shot that's too weak to penetrate armor, or have some sort of feedback of any kind on what just happened than seeing enigmatic "missed". Watching your character stab your enemy and do plain nothing is as bizzare as punching walls to increase your swordsmanship skill. The only stats that can sneak through is damage or damage resistance because that's when you actually hit something - but it's boring and almost every game with RPG label falls into that trap.

 

[Alkarl]

Watching your character stab your enemy and do plain nothing is

..something you can do in just about every rpg ever.

Seriously, why debate the quality of the combat system in a TES game? It's like drinking piss as if it were wine.

At least in Morrowind, combat was stat based and nuanced enough , allowing for and encouraging different viable approaches. In Oblivion you have.. 4 approaches to combat? In Skyrim there is like 1, unless you're playing something other than a stealth archer, then there are two.

 

[Ash]

Dumbed down RPG systems (this is the big one, for me)
Boring rehashed dungeons (yes, Morrowind's dungeons weren't great but they were more diverse than this shit, made use of the z-axis, had multiple entrances/exits, had swimming-centric dungeons, a greater variety of dungeon themes etc etc)
Aggressive universal level scaling
less creative setting
dumbed down spellcrafting
fatigue of the concept and lack of design progression (has all the worst aspects of Morrowind and few of the good aspects,and generally did very little new and improved)
Boring plot
Combat is worse than morrowind's. Simplified the RPG hybridisation, but added basically nothing in its place except excessive level-scaled sponges. The RNG combat in Morrowind is tedious as fuck, but at least the number crunching and greater diversity of systems involved is a fun distraction.
Despite having moderate complexity, is one of the most tedious games ever. Having a bunch of systems to play with, tons of weapons, tons of NPCs, tons of locations to explore do not make up for all those things being copy-paste. Morrowind suffered copy-paste design but here it is further pronounced.

Here's how my playtimes of the NuAge ElderScrolls look:

Morrowind: Three playthrough attempts. Give up after say, 50 hours as a result of fatigue from crap design, but lasted this long because of the many good aspects.
Oblivion: Two playthrough attempts. Give up after no more than 30 hours. Overwhelmed by tedium with little good to drag me through.
Skyrim: one playthrough attempt. Gave up after no more than 30 hours. Overwhelmed by tedium with essentially no good to drag me through.

I hate Oblivion but I hate Skyrim more.

Bonus hate: Oblivion and Skyrim are two of the most successful RPGs of all time, so understandably the hate is amplified because the success isn't justified (could have been if they took Morrowind's design and actually made it better though).

 

[Ash]

The above criticism definitely has degrees of objectivity involved, e.g there's lots of copy-paste, which is bad. We humans don't like repetition.

Sad that the truth isn't represented appropriately by reality, by that I mean it's sad how shit dumbed down games sold better than games which are essentially the same thing but not quite so bad (Morrowind). Don't you go blame the console tards. Oblivion PC sold better than Morrowind PC.
Injustice everywhere in the world, which makes me escape to virtual worlds (well, no, I play (good) games because they're fun as fuck first and foremost). Now, the virtual worlds have been heavily compromised too.

Reception[edit]
Reception
Aggregate scores
Aggregator Score
GameRankings 93.85% (X360)[113]
92.98% (PS3)[114]
93.29% (PC)[115]
Metacritic 94/100 (X360)[116]
93/100 (PS3)[117]
94/100 (PC)[118]
Review scores
Publication Score
1UP.com A[119][120][121]
AllGame

[122]
Famitsu 38/40 (X360)[123]
GameSpot 9.6/10 (X360)[124]
9.5/10 (PS3)[125]
9.3/10 (PC)[40]
GameSpy

[126][127][128]
IGN 9.3/10 (X360)[129]
9.2/10 (PS3)[130]
9.3/10 (PC)[131]
OXM (US) 9.5/10 (X360)[132]
PC Gamer (US) 95/100 (PC)[133]
Oblivion received universal acclaim from critics, and became a commercial success.[116][134] The game had shipped 1.7 million copies by April 10, 2006,[135] sold over 3 million copies by January 2007,[136] and over 3.5 million by November 2011.[137] Electronic Entertainment Design and Research, a market research firm, estimates that the game has sold 9.5 million copies worldwide.[138] Reviewers praised the game for its impressive graphics, expansive game world and schedule-driven NPCs. Eurogamer editor Kristan Reed stated that the game "successfully unites some of the best elements of RPG, adventure and action games and fuses them into a relentlessly immersive and intoxicating whole".[139] GameSpot's Greg Kasavinwrote that compared to Morrowind, which was one of the best role-playing games he has seen in years, "Oblivion is hands-down better, so much so that even those who'd normally have no interest in a role-playing game should find it hard to resist getting swept up in this big, beautiful, meticulously crafted world".[124] X-Play's Jason D'Aprile stated, "All the games in this series have been known for their sheer vastness and freedom of choice, but the Elder Scrolls IV takes that concept and runs with it".[140]

GamesTM editors noted that the game is "heavily steeped in RPG tradition, however, its appeal stretches far beyond the hardcore RPG demographic thanks to its ease of play, boundless ambition and focused attention to detail".[141] Scott Tobias of The A.V. Club wrote that the game is "worth playing for the sense of discovery—each environment looks different from the last and requires a nuanced reaction—makes the action addictive."[142] GameZone staff commented on how one can spend a lot of the gameplay time by leveling up his or her character, doing various quests, and customizing the character before even starting the main quest.[143]

Oblivion won a number of industry and publication awards. In 2006, the game was awarded the title "Game of the Year" at the G-Phoria Video Game Awards and at the Spike TV Video Game Awards.[146][147] At the 24th annual Golden Joystick Awards, Oblivion was awarded "PLAY.com Ultimate Game of the Year", "Xbox Game of the Year", and "ebuyer.com PC Game of the Year".[148] The game was titled the best role-playing game of 2006 by 1UP.com,[149] G4,[146] IGN,[150] GameSpy,[151] GameSpot,[152] Game Revolution,[153] PC Gamer US,[154] and the Interactive Achievement Awards.[155] The editors of Computer Games Magazine presented Oblivion with their 2006 "Best Technology" and "Best Role-Playing Game" awards, and named it the second-best computer game of the year. They summarized it as "an unforgettable masterpiece."[156] In 2007, PC Gamer magazine rated Oblivion number one on their list of the top 100 games of all time.[157] In addition to the awards won by the game itself, Patrick Stewart's voice work as Uriel Septim won a Spike TV award,[147] and the musical score by composer Jeremy Soule won the inaugural MTV Video Music Award for "Best Original Score" through an international popular vote.

What the fuck is wrong with these people? even if I hadn't played better RPGs beforehand I could not see myself rating Oblivion this highly.

 

[CrunchyHemorrhoids]

^Pete Hines provides the best hookers.

 

[Ocelot]

I don't hate Oblivion but I feel disappointed. For me, what ruined the experience was the level scaling. The game has many nice things and I love it's setting and atmosphere but as an RPG it's disappointing.

Also Oblivion was supposed to be a truly next-gen game back in 2006. It was going to be a game to be remembered for ages. Instead it aged like milk.

 

[Quillon]

It was going to be a game to be remembered for ages.

Doncha remember Oblivion?