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Why don't indie devs use AI-generated images as art?

mkultra

Augur
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Messages
469
in comparison to generic mobile game art i think anything created with DALL-E (or even better, Stable Diffusion) is exceptionally good.. but again, it's just the start.. it's not like the first 3D models were amazing either :p This will be bigger than even 3D engines i believe because it's just so easy to use. Maybe we'll see new 2D engines with graphics we didn't think was possible using 2D, there's so much happening right now with it, it's unlikely to slow down any time soon. Every month is a big step forward.

For anything AI, this is a good channel to follow: https://www.youtube.com/c/KárolyZsolnai/videos
 

Üstad

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2019
Messages
8,533
Location
Türkiye
Prompt: medieval town guard grizzled veteran sour stern facial scar photorealistic night torch
Result:
tHUT70l.png


I like the fourth, lets get a few variations:
45ANWdH.png


Not great, not terrible. Needs less scars and more torch.
These are done in 10-15 seconds, by the way, only input is the text prompt above. Everything else is quickly generated.

Edit: Here's your default protagonist avatar
U02F3sY.png
TVqYc3i.png


Medieval energy drink advertisement, even though I aimed for something different. Not complaining.
 

V17

Educated
Joined
Feb 24, 2022
Messages
268
Consider you took images from a Bethesda game and spent a lot of time altering them and then put them in a commercial game. Do you think Bethesda would sue you? They would sue and win. I think the same would apply in reverse.

The thing that concerns me is you can't copyright rules for a game, because games aren't recognized by the law as useful inventions. So people can clone your game, but what slows them down is they must make their own art, because that can be copyrighted. However if you use AI generated art all they have to do is reverse engineer your pack file format, and use that to make new games that look exactly like yours. The only thing other than art you can own the rights to in your game, is if you trademark certain names, and the text you wrote.

I think they should let the choices people make when using AI be copyright, because choosing good from bad is a skill. But first we'll need smarter AI that can train and learn without scanning the entire Internet. When that happens they may successfully argue in court for copyright on AI generated art.
Imo the technical issue with your argument is that neural networks of today are notoriously bad at copying things. I don't know why that is, but it is an inherent feature without which some types of unsupervised learning like generative adversarial networks would not work at all - the whole process is based on a network being unable to copy input images and slowly learning to create reasonably close substitutes.

Because of this I think it would be hard to argue how different using an AI is from an artist simply taking inspiration and creating something very similar in style but completely legal. It is certainly not the same as sampling or stealing art. But I am not educated in the field of law either.
 

Viata

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
9,886
Location
Water Play Catarinense
I'm pretty sure Indie devs are not the only one that are going to use it. In fact, AAA devs could simply contract a single artist to fix those horrible problems modern AI generated art has, if they even need a single artist.
I'm glad my artistic hobbies are just hobbies, not how I made my money. I already accepted there are humans better that me at those hobbies, so if an AI could do better, it wouldn't affect me at all. :positive:
 

whydoibother

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 2, 2018
Messages
15,690
Location
bulgaristan
Codex Year of the Donut
I'm pretty sure Indie devs are not the only one that are going to use it. In fact, AAA devs could simply contract a single artist to fix those horrible problems modern AI generated art has, if they even need a single artist.
I'm glad my artistic hobbies are just hobbies, not how I made my money. I already accepted there are humans better that me at those hobbies, so if an AI could do better, it wouldn't affect me at all. :positive:
9j9jmsqgruz71.jpg
 

Machocruz

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
4,377
Location
Hyperborea
I'm pretty sure Indie devs are not the only one that are going to use it. In fact, AAA devs could simply contract a single artist to fix those horrible problems modern AI generated art has, if they even need a single artist.
I'm glad my artistic hobbies are just hobbies, not how I made my money. I already accepted there are humans better that me at those hobbies, so if an AI could do better, it wouldn't affect me at all. :positive:
Commercial art has long been a field of chaos, compromises, and disappointment; you'd have to be a madman to make it your bread and butter the last few decades. It's not really about being better in a technical manner. Someone others would consider mediocre is another's perfect fit for the product they are putting out. Style before technical proficiency, see Warhol's illustration work. That's the "problem" that only grows every decade. The work doesn't have to be Good, it just has to be good enough, which is where the AI comes in. Honestly already these works are passable compared to a great lot of what is already being produced in the game industry, especially in the context of this thread which is addressing indie game development. I hope no one is under the illusion there were great illustrators in this field, the kind who transcend the material and elevate culture. Maybe a handful would standout in the comics field, which isn't the height of visual arts either. I mean the good ones are legit good and fun to look at, I'm not trashing them. But that makes up 1% of the industry, and the styles they work in and the tools they use allow them alot of leeway to get it right, offset their shortcomings. Only the AAA companies can afford to bring in masters (just as only big Hollywood studios could afford to bring in an H.R. Giger or Moebius), but why would they when they can get 'good enough' in a shorter time frame?
 

Viata

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
9,886
Location
Water Play Catarinense
Only the AAA companies can afford to bring in masters (just as only big Hollywood studios could afford to bring in an H.R. Giger or Moebius), but why would they when they can get 'good enough' in a shorter time frame?
Exactly. They even killed video game menus:

image.png

Nobody will buy a game because of a memorable menu, and nobody will return it because it's dull. As long as they can make money, they don't give a shit what they need to discard.
 

V17

Educated
Joined
Feb 24, 2022
Messages
268
One of the best things that seems to have come out of AI image generators is watching idiot "artists" scream at this thing out of fear of losing their job.
This queer "eat the rich" anticapitalist showing middle fingers in her profile picture is raging at... An actual kid who said this is the first time he or she tried to make a comic, created just 4 pages for fun and didn't even publish it outside of a Discord. And she ends the rage with begging for money.

Funny thing is if she's right in her hate of AIs, then it also means that she has absolutely nothing to worry about regarding her source of income, making the whole rant pointless.
A perfectly stereotypical retard, I give her 9/11 points.

 

Nathaniel3W

Rockwell Studios
Patron
Developer
Joined
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Messages
1,241
Location
Washington, DC
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
Alright. I've spent the last week on Stable Diffusion, Textual Inversion, and Real-ESRGAN and now I have the first finished art to show for it.
store_capsule_main.png

There was a big up-front investment in time to get the models trained and to figure out my workflow. But now I have lots of really solid art to include in my game and the style is pretty good and consistent. This is just the first piece that I'm using for my Steam page assets. (Store page not public yet.) I think if I need more art, I'll be able to generate it pretty quickly. But for now I'm going to use what I have to help me with my next trailer.
 

Vermillion

Educated
Joined
Jul 15, 2022
Messages
80
Alright. I've spent the last week on Stable Diffusion, Textual Inversion, and Real-ESRGAN and now I have the first finished art to show for it.
View attachment 27662
There was a big up-front investment in time to get the models trained and to figure out my workflow. But now I have lots of really solid art to include in my game and the style is pretty good and consistent. This is just the first piece that I'm using for my Steam page assets. (Store page not public yet.) I think if I need more art, I'll be able to generate it pretty quickly. But for now I'm going to use what I have to help me with my next trailer.
Face looks a bit fucked but the rest seems fine.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

Grand Dragon
Patron
Glory to Ukraine
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Messages
14,954
Strap Yourselves In
Q7h51mB.png
Probably one of my favorite lovecraftian abominations I've seen. Cupscale and GoBIG for the upscaling IIRC.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

Grand Dragon
Patron
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
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Messages
14,954
Strap Yourselves In
Funny thing is if she's right in her hate of AIs, then it also means that she has absolutely nothing to worry about regarding her source of income, making the whole rant pointless.
Thing is, "she" (doubt) probably knows that she half-asses a lot of her commissions because they're for people who don't actually care about the art beyond just having something that sort of looks right.

While she's right about the landscapes and in most of what she's saying, it probably also terrifies her to see the kind of output quality that comes in seconds, and that the technology is improving.

This is her art btw:
KMRvBoT.png

TRNYlqA.png

vZH3tnW.png

9j1o1Bv.png
I can see why she'd feel threatened.
 

MuffinBun

Educated
Joined
Jul 9, 2022
Messages
135
So I've been thinking a bit about this, and one thing that came to me was that when I was struggling with making graphics for past projects, I was looking towards the libraries of public domain art, quite often old paintings, public domain photographs, etc.. Most of the time, you could get what you wanted by simply taking some parts that you like, like a landscape or a ship or whatever, and making a collage of sorts, making adjustments, some stylizing etc. There are obvious downsides to this, but in the end its something that gets you a workable picture. Yet I've never encountered a game that would be made with that method, despite noticing that there are a few that could benefit from it. In the end, people settled for small scale pixel art, simply hiring an artist or employing some non visual measures, roguelike style. In the end it is a matter of versatility, control, and strict responsiveness to the vision that you yourself have. These generators provide good looking results, yet it feels like, if they were to be employed in a project, it would be like working with someone elses vision.

Now, another matter is control over the process. It is already known that dalle modifies your input. The generation process is left as is, but your request goes through a filter and may be altered. So ultimately for this to find use, an individual, or a corporation, would likely want to have direct access to the neural network; not one thats mediated by a third party.

As we progress into the future, we encounter situations that would not be accounted for in the past, and considered abnormal among previous generations, namely: that something can easily be done, but due to the convoluted, inefficient, corrupt way the adjacent systems work, it never actually gets done. So lets say the generators like these get either soft or hard regulated by the institutions. In theory, you could use them to make art that would easily surpass anything done by man; in practice - it does not accept any input that would result in anything else than a standard Netflix story with Netflix looking protagonists and Netflix outlook. You'll be writing: "Dall-E, make me a grandiose image of a neoclassical metropolis", and the output will always be crowded New York or some version of Wakanda. "Wall-E, write me a story about a man overcoming obstacles on his way to victory" and what you get is an irony-poisoned millenial sit-com or whatever. This could be softly regulated by ethicists and silicon valley tech circles, or just straight up by the govt.

What I'm pointing at here is that there is no straight line from "it could be done" to "it will be done". With technological advancements you'd "predict" that for instance large cities would become safer then ever, because surveillance allows for quick identification of any troublemakers. Then surely personal protection guys, the cops, and various such types will become obsolete. In reality, while the capacity to eradicate crime indeed exists, there's little will to do so due to how adjacent systems work. You can locate anyone anytime, but if an actual person does not prosecute, if the order does not come, if noone presses the button, then nothing will happen. And whether that button gets pressed or not is completely outside to the technology itself. In reality many cities are more dangerous than ever, and those professionals have more work than ever. The same can be with artists, if even one avenue gets regulated, say suggestive imagery.

We're too used to the post-medieval european model of history, in which various state entities are in constant competiion, so every innovation that grants some productive edge gets implemented immediately, because no one wants to stay behind. The situation now is more of an unopposed decaying empire, where there's plenty of means to make great leaps forward, but little gets done. An innovation does not need to be implemented, since there are no outside competitors, and little genuine desire to actually progress.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

Grand Dragon
Patron
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
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Messages
14,954
Strap Yourselves In
Now, another matter is control over the process. It is already known that dalle modifies your input. The generation process is left as is, but your request goes through a filter and may be altered. So ultimately for this to find use, an individual, or a corporation, would likely want to have direct access to the neural network; not one thats mediated by a third party.
You can download Stable Diffusion to your hard drive and generate whatever you want with no filter. :M
 

Nathaniel3W

Rockwell Studios
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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
There was a big up-front investment in time to get the models trained and to figure out my workflow.
Get them trained? You trained Stable Diffusion? Or are you mainly talking about setup?
Had to train Textual Inversion. Setup was a pain too, but I only spent a day on that. I had to set it up on AWS because my home computer's GPU isn't big enough to handle training. My home GPU can create new images using the trained data. But I needed an instance on AWS to actually train new concepts. I had to choose 5 images that best represent each artist, and then spend an hour or two training Textual Inversion. Then I'd try making some images based on that training data. Then maybe I'd put together the best from that batch, and then train on a second generation to try to improve the output. I did that for a few artists and concepts (concepts like bearded men and black people--Japanese artists don't draw them very often), spending a total of several days training and testing and retesting and combining until I got some result that I thought were mostly in the style that I want and mostly consistent.
 

Dexter

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
15,655
These generators provide good looking results, yet it feels like, if they were to be employed in a project, it would be like working with someone elses vision.
Isn't that kind of a big point and advantage for AI generation in some/many ways? Training an AI right on art sets or entire body of works by particular artists like Dalí, Giger, Dociu etc. you could either never get because they're dead or much too busy or could never afford can, if not provide compelling direct art in their style for a game, at the very least somewhat simulate having them as concept artists for your random shitty Indie project. Even highly trained (and expensive) professional artists couldn't hope to replicate their style and ideas like an AI can, not to mention with as little effort or in as little time, at little to no cost and with almost immediate revisions and variations.
I can see why she'd feel threatened.
https://archive.ph/24FwW

An AI-Generated Artwork Won First Place at a State Fair Fine Arts Competition, and Artists Are Pissed​

Jason Allen's AI-generated work "Théâtre D'opéra Spatial" took first place in the digital category at the Colorado State Fair.
Midjourney Photo

Screengrab: Discord.
 
Last edited:

Viata

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
9,886
Location
Water Play Catarinense
Tbh, do you think any judge in that art competition even know what midjourney is and that the guy didn't draw anything? As far as they knew, midjourney is another software like Photoshop.
 

Sarathiour

Cipher
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
3,264
If anything, I think those people should see this an opportunity. As it has already been said, it's a nice tool to get quick concept and canvas, but often lack in precision and coherence, and still take some time to be fine-tuned. Tracing and copycat using slight variation of already existing image are still an issue in the art industry that will probably never get solved.
A lot of art is already outsourced to second and even third world country, ai training should give back an edge to western artist, because they should have reference, training and computing power not available to the other. Of course, the eternal retard are screeching, because they somehow believed that artist could be a secure and cozy job.
 

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