Elder Scrolls Why Morrowind is a bad RPG

[Sigourn]

I could delete this thread but I'd rather keep it up.

I think the problem was how I looked at Morrowind, what I played Morrowind for. Mechanically speaking it is a very flawed game, and your attributes/skills don't modify much how you interact with the world. But it is a nice simulation, where you can play pretend and live out your character. Whereas classic Fallout or New Vegas enforces your character through its stats, you have to enforce your character in Morrowind through your own imagination. And that's pretty much why the lore in Morrowind is so important: it's supposed to set your imagination free, let it run wild.

Coming to terms with this is why I can read the following comment

Earlier I said Morrowind gets more and more boring the more I play through it. And that's because it lacks replayability as an RPG.

and simultaneously think "I was right", but also, "I was missing the point of the game". The point of the game is the same as that of Skyrim's, to enter a world and lose yourself in it. It's just that Morrowind did it better, and was also a better RPG.

 

[Butter]

Todd Howard's TES games were always inspired first and foremost by Ultima. The point is to be impressed by how interactive and lifelike the world looks, and to just play as yourself instead of a specific character.

 

[The Jester]

Do you like Fallout : New Vegas?
Do you like Morrowind?
THEN YOU NEED THIS:

Spoiler

Johnny Guitar From Fallout New Vegas As An Explore Music for Morrowind
https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/49133

 

[Clockwork Knight]

(I'm thinking of the Vivec books here, which I personally find annoying pretentious nonsense).

I'm pretty sure "pretentious unreadable mostly-nonsense" was most of the intention, even. There are bits of meaning that can be derived but it's as much "lore expansion" as it is "crazy rambling" in the exact same time.

Of course now I'll be sitting here waiting for someone to come in and tell me that every single line makes a lot of sense and I'm just not CHIM enough to get it.

The ending of the words was Almsivi.

The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec
by Vivec

Words of wisdom relating to Vivec

It's written by an elven warrior-poet self-made god. It would be strange it he didn't spend most of the text sucking his own dick, which is a monolithic instrument of pleasure.

 

[laclongquan]

It's written by an elven warrior-poet self-made god. It would be strange it he didn't spend most of the text sucking his own dick, which is a monolithic instrument of pleasure.

This is true but no excuse for bloody mediocre writings. PST retell the old story of a man and his three wishes but the retelling is fine, innit? Baldur's gate 1 do something similar with the dreamtelling with acceptable results. Originality =/= Quality.

 

[Communist]

I agree that Morrowind is a bad RPG. But he is a good game.
The only real RPG games are the Sims franchise.
This is my personal opinion, but I think that many "RPG games" would benefit if the traditional RPG elements (which are actually elements of strategy games) were removed from them.
In this regard, I like David Cage. He removes redundant elements from his games, leaving only what is worth playing for. Of course, his most famous games are known as "interactive cinema", but damn it! If they had other elements, his games would still be played like an "interactive cinema".
Cage's only flaw is how he does the storytelling. He makes kitsch that is acceptable in games (because kitsch goes well with game elements like statistics and all that digital shit). However, kitsch is a trick that players approve of, so maybe David Cage is right.

 

[Sranchammer]

If I could throw my shoe at OP, I would.

 

[Konjad]

What does Morrowind have that any other modern RPG doesn't? Interesting lore and... uhh... big mushrooms... and a decent modding tool.

What does Gothic have that any other modern RPG doesn't? Wonderfully designed world, realistic NPCs (their daily life and quick down-to-earth dialogues), decent AI (wolves hunting scavengers, an NPC meeting superior enemy not fighting but running away), quests that are rarely unrelated to everything around, and usually not dumb fetch tasks, active combat (unlike press LMB in TES), and fascinating hand-crafted world where every place feels unique (no need to even bother with a map).

What Beth always did was just KEWL GRAPHIX and LOOK AT THIS ENORMOUS WORLD (but it's random-generated diarrhea or half-generated turd).

 

[samuraigaiden]

Stats matter to the gameplay = real RPG

Fun to play = good

Morrowind is a real good RPG.

 

[Communist]

What does Morrowind. What does Gothic.

I agree with you that Gothic was a more immersive game than Morrowind and that it had a lot of influence in Eastern Europe. I remember all these endless wars between phantoms about which is better, Gothic or Morrowind.
But ultimately the Elder Scrolls franchise won, and it was Morrowind's victory.
Gothic has lost, but its concept marches victoriously. The entire Witcher franchise grew out of the concept of Gothic (speaking of the concept, I mean the plurality of elements of this game, not just one). Cyberpunk 2077 also grew out of the Gothic, although elements of the Oblivion concept emerged from the time of Blood and Wine.
But the key point about why The Elder Scrolls (aka Morrowind) continue to win, despite all their flaws, is that they offer real freedom at all levels. Freedom begins with a game where you can do whatever you want. Freedom of play, freedom of interpretation of the plot and lore, freedom of modding. The world of Gothic is initially not free. Lol, we start the game as a prisoner.
I would compare the Elder Scrolls to Christianity, and the games of Piranha Bytes to Islam. Complete freedom in a world that is filled only with our participation, and complete lack of freedom in a world that is full of itself.

 

[MWaser]

What does Morrowind have that any other modern RPG doesn't? Interesting lore and... uhh... big mushrooms... and a decent modding tool.

What does Gothic have that any other modern RPG doesn't? Wonderfully designed world, realistic NPCs (their daily life and quick down-to-earth dialogues), decent AI (wolves hunting scavengers, an NPC meeting superior enemy not fighting but running away), quests that are rarely unrelated to everything around, and usually not dumb fetch tasks, active combat (unlike press LMB in TES), and fascinating hand-crafted world where every place feels unique (no need to even bother with a map).

What Beth always did was just KEWL GRAPHIX and LOOK AT THIS ENORMOUS WORLD (but it's random-generated diarrhea or half-generated turd).

I'm tired of consistently arguing with shit argumentation like this, at least if you want to shit talk one series and praise another then give a real analysis instead of poiting out advantage of only one series over the other, but ignoring the advantages of the former comparison to make it look worse than it actually is. I could easily list a large list for both in favor of and against Morrowind, same for Gothic 1/2, and their comparisons. It is not even a matter of what is claimed to be "better" or "worse" at the end, ratings on a direct, linear, single-parameter "quality" scale is always down to too much subjecting weighting based on what the given person pays attention to more in their summed-up recollections and ideas about the game and how they relate to personally-honored ideology on game design.

But for fuck's sake, stop pretending that cherry picking is ever a valid form of analysis.

 

[Sweeper]

The only character building choices that matter in this game are exclusive to being a mage. Do I wanna be a breton or a high elf one? Atronach, mage or apprentice?
That's it.
Given enough levels there is no difference between stealthy characters and warriors (both of which can be decent spellcasters, but without the magicka reserves).
The freedom Bethesda gives you is great, but the freedom in character progression actually invalidates the player's choices.

So Morrowind absolutely is a great game, but a shit RPG. I still like it though.

 

[janior]

wait what, why would you make a high elf mage

 

[commie]

I agree that Morrowind is a bad RPG. But he is a good game.
The only real RPG games are the Sims franchise.
This is my personal opinion, but I think that many "RPG games" would benefit if the traditional RPG elements (which are actually elements of strategy games) were removed from them.
In this regard, I like David Cage. He removes redundant elements from his games, leaving only what is worth playing for. Of course, his most famous games are known as "interactive cinema", but damn it! If they had other elements, his games would still be played like an "interactive cinema".
Cage's only flaw is how he does the storytelling. He makes kitsch that is acceptable in games (because kitsch goes well with game elements like statistics and all that digital shit). However, kitsch is a trick that players approve of, so maybe David Cage is right.

Wait wha-

Ahh, it all makes sense now....carry on.

 

[Sigourn]

I'm tired of consistently arguing with shit argumentation like this, at least if you want to shit talk one series and praise another then give a real analysis instead of poiting out advantage of only one series over the other, but ignoring the advantages of the former comparison to make it look worse than it actually is. I could easily list a large list for both in favor of and against Morrowind, same for Gothic 1/2, and their comparisons. It is not even a matter of what is claimed to be "better" or "worse" at the end, ratings on a direct, linear, single-parameter "quality" scale is always down to too much subjecting weighting based on what the given person pays attention to more in their summed-up recollections and ideas about the game and how they relate to personally-honored ideology on game design.

But for fuck's sake, stop pretending that cherry picking is ever a valid form of analysis.

But he is right.
What DOES Morrowind do well as an RPG? Nothing.

It's as Sweeper said: the only build choices that matter are exclusive to being a mage, because that's where the fun of the game lies. If you are not a mage, you are missing 95% of what makes Morrowind fun. Even with mods that make character building far more important, it still boils down to whether you are a mage or not. There's a reason even experienced players recognize that Morrowind's biggest strengths are its lore and its worldbuilding, and without those, Morrowind wouldn't be anywhere near as remembered as it is today.

I still play and mod Morrowind, but fuck me if I don't feel retarded for doing so at times.

 

[V_K]

the only build choices that matter are exclusive to being a mage

So? And the only build choices that you get in Gothic is how soon you get magic.

 

[Poseidon00]

because that's where the fun of the game lies. If you are not a mage, you are missing 95% of what makes Morrowind fun.

Disagree. I make non-magic characters all the time. For me, it is acrobatics and athletics that make it fun. Let me jump on top of a two-story building and one-shot the guy up there with my big honkin' axe. That's fun for me.

But I mean, what does Morrowind do good as an RPG? Worldbuilding. I imagine that is its best quality to a lot of people.

 

[prengle]

What does Morrowind have that any other modern RPG doesn't? Interesting lore and... uhh... big mushrooms... and a decent modding tool.

What does Gothic have that any other modern RPG doesn't? Wonderfully designed world, realistic NPCs (their daily life and quick down-to-earth dialogues), decent AI (wolves hunting scavengers, an NPC meeting superior enemy not fighting but running away), quests that are rarely unrelated to everything around, and usually not dumb fetch tasks, active combat (unlike press LMB in TES), and fascinating hand-crafted world where every place feels unique (no need to even bother with a map).

What Beth always did was just KEWL GRAPHIX and LOOK AT THIS ENORMOUS WORLD (but it's random-generated diarrhea or half-generated turd).

well, if there was a game that took the best of everything from morrowind, gothic and stalker (a-life at its best is still unmatched) and threw that shit into a blender i would be fucking ecstatic, except we can't have nice things on this gay earth

 

[The Avatar]

What DOES Morrowind do well as an RPG? Nothing.

Open-world exploration, tons of side quests. A unique fantasy world. Lore books. Crafting/Alchemy. Spell Maker. There are lots of things that make Morrowind 10x more RPG than say, any linear JRPG for example.

Oh, and you realize that you can buy, find, or enchant items that do anything that a mage can? All you really need from magic is an amulet of levitation and a mark/recall item.

Or you could just, you know, build a hybrid class that mostly uses weapons but also knows a couple schools of magic.

 

[Sigourn]

the only build choices that matter are exclusive to being a mage

So? And the only build choices that you get in Gothic is how soon you get magic.

Do you realize how bad does that make Morrowind look? A game where you can pick from TEN races compared to Gothic's one?
What's more, Morrowind's weapons don't even feel that different from each other. Only major difference is that the bigger weapons have a higher chance to stun the enemy, and that's it. Other than that, it's just low damage vs high damage.

Open-world exploration, tons of side quests.

Locations that feel copy pasted from each other, quests that feel copy pasted from each other and whose strength lies in contributing to the world building instead of being fun quests on their own.

A unique fantasy world. Lore books.

Yeah, this is what I mentioned earlier about the lore and worldbuilding being Morrowind's biggest strengths.

Crafting

There's no crafting in Morrowind. Perhaps you meant Skyrim?

Alchemy. Spell Maker.

Two really neat features whose fun lie in breaking the game. Again, why playing a mage is Morrowind's biggest choice in building a character.

Oh, and you realize that you can buy, find, or enchant items that do anything that a mage can? All you really need from magic is an amulet of levitation and a mark/recall item.

For the purpose of my comment I considered "enchanting" something a mage would do, but sure. My point still stands: outside of the magical aspects of the game (alchemy, enchanting, and magic skills), Morrowind is boring as fuck.

 

[V_K]

For the purpose of my comment I considered "enchanting" something a mage would do, but sure. My point still stands: outside of the magical aspects of the game (alchemy, enchanting, and magic skills), Morrowind is boring as fuck.

Mages generally don't have much need in alchemy or enchanting (beyond mana potions and spell absorbing/reflecting gear maybe) since they have easier access to all those effects through spells. Enchanting is much more useful to warrior types (since some creatures are immune to physical damage); and alchemy, to rogue types since it gives them a lot of situational flexibility.
Speaking of rogues, crime system has always been a strength of TES games, with Thieves Guild and Morag Tong providing some of the most interesting quests that can also be quite creatively solved.

Do you realize how bad does that make Morrowind look?

Not worse than 90% RPGs out there. Builds in classless RPGs always boil down to the choice of magic vs. not magic, and it's rarely that the right choice isn't tapping into both; very occasionally stealth or diplomacy options get thrown in but are rarely worth it. Everything else is just icing on the cake. For what it's worth, if you stick to pre-made classes in either MW or DF, things get more interesting.
MW's big issue is that its dungeons are a downgrade from DF's; unlike the latter, they don't make good use of either magical or non-magical skills that the system offers.

A game where you can pick from TEN races compared to Gothic's one?

It's not like races are a terribly meaningful thing in any game. Most of the time, you just pick whatever race provides best stat bonuses to your class and call it a day. I can only think of one game where race mattered beyond that - in Wizards&Warriors, dwarves and elephant people couldn't wear human armor because of their size and needed special race armor.

 

[Sigourn]

Mages generally don't have much need in alchemy or enchanting (beyond mana potions and spell absorbing/reflecting gear maybe) since they have easier access to all those effects through spells. Enchanting is much more useful to warrior types (since some creatures are immune to physical damage); and alchemy, to rogue types since it gives them a lot of situational flexibility.

It's not so much about alchemy and enchanting being intrinsically magical skills, but that non-magic builds rely purely on melee and ranged attacks, which offers nowhere near the versatility of a magic-inclined character. Especially since stealth is so broken in Morrowind (raising Sneak is a pain in the ass unless you cheese it).

Morrowind offers a lot of races but literally nothing of (gameplay) value would be lost by cutting all of them and leaving you to play as just one race. That's because their supposed bonuses hardly matter, their racial skills are a joke (and in many cases, amount to nothing that a basic spell couldn't already provide), and so forth. Morrowind's general gameplay is very, very shallow: you are given a lot of options to choose from (races, birthsigns, skills, equipment) but most don't matter at all. We can criticize JRPGs all we want but even a basic JRPG like Final Fantasy gives you a linear progression of equipment that makes each armor and weapon count. In Morrowind a lot of times you simply choose the equipment that looks best because the stats are fucked and you are not given a reason as to why wear the shittiest light armor when Chitin Armor can be easily bought so early in the game.

I fully agree with Sweeper's earlier statement: Morrowind is a bad RPG since its gameplay choices rarely have consequences (99% of quests have no choices either), but at least it is a fun game and in that aspect it delivers. With 1% of the gameplay options (no races, birthsigns, alchemy, enchanting, magic schools, factions, short of 50 weapons and 10 armors, a ridiculously low amount of towns and dungeons), even Fallout manages to be far more impactful in your choices. But that's because Fallout focused on being an RPG first, whereas Morrowind focuses on letting you be whoever you want even if your choices mean jackshit.

 

[samuraigaiden]

In Morrowind you can become a vampire, buy a slave and feed on it

 

[samuraigaiden]

A widow in Solstheim will let you sleep in her bed and be “part of the family” if you complete her quest.

 

[samuraigaiden]

There’s a lot of cool dumb shit in morrowind that has nothing to do with magic

 

[Sigourn]

There’s a lot of cool dumb shit in morrowind that has nothing to do with magic

In Skyrim you can adopt a child and get them to live in your home.

I remember hearing this about the game and thinking "woah, that sounds incredible". Except when I actually played Skyrim, that is literally what the experience boiled down to: you adopt a child, get them to live in your home, and that's that.
This is the problem with a lot of quests in Morrowind too. In paper they sound cool, but the actual experience is very underwhelming. I don't really need people to tell me about cool Morrowind's quests because I've played them myself, and they were hardly cool. The coolest thing about Morrowind is the build up of the main quest. And again, mostly because of the lore and worldbuilding, not because running around doing errands feels particularly exciting.