Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Elder Scrolls Why Morrowind is a bad RPG

Hace El Oso

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 5, 2020
Messages
2,128
Location
Bogotá
Oblivion and Skyrim have a superior system because you can just click on a map? That's precisely what makes them so inferior. Morrowind's fast travel system is an actual game mechanic that the player needs to engage with. The player needs to learn the Silt Strider and boat routes to travel efficiently (that is, without wasting money) and also needs to learn how those two system interconnect, since some settlements are ONLY able to be travelled to by boat and others by Silt Strider. In addition to that, a big part of Mark and Recall is the decision-making attached to WHERE the player puts their Mark down. Is it their home? Their quest giver? Or is it some other point on the map that allows them to use Divine and Almsivi Intervention to travel around the island in the least possible steps? It's all well and good to stick your Mark down in front of Caius Cosades while you do the first part of the Main Quest, but Balmora is really easy to access by Silt Strider, so you're only saving yourself a small amount of gold and time walking from the strider port. One of the more interesting places to put down a Mark is actually in the Molag Amur region, where Divine Intervention takes you to Sadrith Mora, and Almsivi to Molag Mar. A Divine Intervention from Molag Mar then allows you to chain travel over to Ebonheart.

It's so much more in-depth and interesting than Oblivion and Skyrim's system, that to claim the latter are superior means you actually dislike video games or that you're being deliberately obtuse.

It also manages to capture some of the fun and spirit of actual travel, figuring out how to get from one place to another in the world in that fragmented way. I can’t think of any other game off the top of my head that does that.
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,874,431
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
This is not healthy game design because it creates a compulsion to check every corner of every dungeon because there MIGHT be something. Couple that with all the random loot that you can find all over, and not just gear, ancient dwemer coin which when you give to a vendor you effectively increase the amount he can buy, ancient dagoth brandy, gems, basically all those high value items that if you play the game as intended you want to collect, if you keep all of that in mind, they use these techniques to "hook" you on the exploration and dungeon delving. I don't think this is good game design, and the precursor to evil tactics like lootboxes etc.
A take so hot that it caused third degree burns from quoting it. I will sue

FB-vnSfX0AQJvBS
 

agentorange

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
5,256
Codex 2012
to find the best stuff you have to scour every inch of every dungeon because a lot of the loot is "hidden"

Can you imagine?


^^^ This is not healthy game design because it creates a compulsion to check every corner of every dungeon because there MIGHT be something. Couple that with all the random loot that you can find all over, and not just gear, ancient dwemer coin which when you give to a vendor you effectively increase the amount he can buy, ancient dagoth brandy, gems, basically all those high value items that if you play the game as intended you want to collect, if you keep all of that in mind, they use these techniques to "hook" you on the exploration and dungeon delving. I don't think this is good game design, and the precursor to evil tactics like lootboxes etc. I know most people in this thread love and vehemently defend Morrowind but ultimately they use cheap tactics to get you to play because well their quests, story and dialogue are shit. Only good thing is what Kirkbride wrote but it's just in the form of books and well the overall world, which is great but the rest is a mix of broken systems and cheap gambling tactics. Anyway that's all I have to say on this topic, cheers.



You come across like someone who looks up everything about a game before playing it then whines about the game feeling like a checklist of work to get through.

"Why do they put all these uber secret items in all these hard to find places that I have to look for!?"
Because you were never meant to find them easily, or find all of them in a single playthrough, or maybe even not find a single one in a playthrough. If you look at some youtube video of all the most unique items being presented at once it seems like an absurd expectation for a player to find all of them, because that was never the intent in the first place. The intent is that the player explores the world at their own pace, being lead to new areas through the main quests and side-quests, or exploring freely, and then you might come across some unique item as an unanticipated surprise or by following clues to its location. Or maybe you take it upon yourself to go treasure hunting and deliberately search out unique treasures, in which case yeah you have to act like a treasure hunter and carefully look for treasure. If you do want to go through the exhaustive process of finding and collecting every valuable in the game then yeah you do have to scour every inch of every dungeon, but that's completely on you and is not remotely close to being a requirement for completing the game.

As for the fast travel stuff, as funposter already said not only is it a real game mechanic that the player has to learn about and can get better at using if they put some time into it, it's also a thoughtful extension of the fictional setting of the game. Morrowind is a harsh, desert/swamp environment that is difficult to traverse so they harness a species that is native to the area can easily traverse these conditions. Bugs are a key part of the ecology and economy of Vvardenfell, people make armor out of the bugs, eat them, make houses out of them, and use of the stilt striders is a gameplay mechanic built off of that which the player takes part in. It's like someone put real thought and effort into the fiction of the world and made a game around it.

The teleportation mechanic is tied to the different religions and cultures in Vvardenfell, the conflict between these different religions and cultures, the conflict between the invading Imperial Cult and the native Tribunal religion being a big part of the setting/plot. Imagine if Skyrim had taken into account the ecology and culture of the area in which it takes place, and had a travel system that ties into this. Maybe the different factions fighting for control in Skyrim would have their own unique methods of travel? Instead you teleport from area to area with no explanation, or use a...wagon; do they ever explain how all these wagons travel around the roads that should be completely snowed over in a part of the country that is perpetually snowing with constant blizzards and ice-storms? Do they have snowplows? What if instead they had come up with some unique technology or tamed a beast that is able to traverse the landscape of Skyrim easily. But no, no one gives a shit, they want to watch a youtube video of TOP 10 MOST SECRET AND POWERFUL WEAPONS IN THE GAME and teleport from one of them to the next checking them off of a list.
 

Vic

Educated
Joined
Oct 24, 2018
Messages
654
You come across like someone who looks up everything about a game before playing it then whines about the game feeling like a checklist of work to get through.
I didn't look up anything except for the location of the daedric boots on my playthru. Also I didn't say the game is a chore, I said fast travel is a chore as you have to fast travel 4-5 times to get to a destination instead of just once, which doesn't add anything after you're familiar with the system but is just a waste of time.

"Why do they put all these uber secret items in all these hard to find places that I have to look for!?"
That's not what I said, I posted the video to make a point that this game has awesome loot literally hidden in dungeons. Once you become aware of it, you are compeled to pixel hunt every dungeon for potential hidden loot, which is not fun and feels manipulative.

You come across like someone who doesn't even read what others are posting as this is the second sentence that was just prejudice on your part against me just because I don't like your beloved morrowind. Well, guess what, look at the title of this thread and kindly move someplace else if you don't like it.

What you are talking about is immersion/larping which I care nothing about. I care about the gameplay, if it makes sense from a lore perspective to waste my time, it's still a waste of time. But I understand Bethesda fans like to larp and pretend their games aren't shit. Also, you're preaching to the choir, I don't know why you felt the need to explain basic morrowind lore to me as a clearly said I spent close to 100 hours on my plathru and posted a screenshot as proof, which also shows most of the map explored, with also all containing dungeons explored, which you can't see on the world map. But I guess you didn't see that post either.

My criticism of Morrowind is my own from my own personal opinion and the way I play the game. I feel that all the random loot in all of those containers has a negative effect on me as a player as it creates a compulsion to explore, like a gambling addiction. Obviously the developers were aware of that and put that in for that purpose. I am not a fan of this, much like I am not a fan of all those mobile games which are casino simulators. My criticism is valid, I posted the proof of my experience. If you want to LARP in this game, install the siltstrider mod, it allows you to actually ride on a siltstrider instead of just fading to black. If that's the way you wanna play then good for you.

But no, no one gives a shit, they want to watch a youtube video of TOP 10 MOST SECRET AND POWERFUL WEAPONS IN THE GAME and teleport from one of them to the next checking them off of a list.

Again, I didn't even watch that video, I found it while making the post just to show to the other poster what I'm talking about. And my fast travel criticism is not even related to that. Next time maybe read what the person you are replying to/accusing actually wrote instead of assuming something about me which is clearly not correct based on the posts I made here, and then posting completely banal morrowind lore that is supposed to somehow invalidate my experience of the game.
 
Last edited:

NecroLord

Learned
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
Messages
1,706
Location
Southeastern Yurop
You want fast travel? Equip the Boots of Blinding Speed or boost your Speed Attribute to insane levels.
Create either a powerful Levitate or Jump spell. The Jump spell might even allow you to leap all across Vvardenfell,from one point to another.
Lastly,you have the Mark and Recall spells.
 

jackofshadows

Magister
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
3,701
Both games had awesome soundtracks.
No idea about Daggerfall but Morrowind ost is actually shit and vastly, vastly overrated, apparantely based on pure nostalgia and the lack of people's (let alone nerd teens) taste, as usual. Ta da da, ta da da, my ass. In general it's extremely bland and le epic at the same time which is annoying when mostly all you do is walking from place to place or whacking some mudcrab. Even more importantly, it barely encapsulates the very praised setting: the red mountain, the sandstorms, the native dark elves and even the prophecy themes don't sound right to me at all.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 24, 2021
Messages
956
Morrowind ost is good music but is terribly implemented into the game. Daggerfall had a much better implementation and a much longer ost with different tracks that are fitting for each location, so I can only assume Morrowinds troubled development caused the ost to be poorly implemented.
 

agentorange

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
5,256
Codex 2012
Both games had awesome soundtracks.
No idea about Daggerfall but Morrowind ost is actually shit and vastly, vastly overrated, apparantely based on pure nostalgia and the lack of people's (let alone nerd teens) taste, as usual. Ta da da, ta da da, my ass. In general it's extremely bland and le epic at the same time which is annoying when mostly all you do is walking from place to place or whacking some mudcrab. Even more importantly, it barely encapsulates the very praised setting: the red mountain, the sandstorms, the native dark elves and even the prophecy themes don't sound right to me at all.
Yeah, tracks like this one start out great, with a tranquil but somewhat lonely quality to them, but then they insist on having to swell into something more grand and exciting, ruining the whole feeling. Seems like the composer didn't understand what the game would play like and was making music around the story descriptions and a simple idea of a fantasy scenario. The game needed a lot more of, and more variety in the ambient tracks.


Also agree that the game should have gone for a more exotic soundtrack in keeping with the setting, something similar to the Lustmord soundtrack for Planescape, something that captures both the tribal and science-fiction qualities of Vvardenfell, something a little more dirty. Would have a been a great juxtaposition to have the serene tracks playing while wandering around the small coastal villages, then something like this plays when you enter a dungeon of the Sixth House:
 

LarryTyphoid

Scholar
Joined
Sep 16, 2021
Messages
1,203
Arena and Daggerfall have some of the best OSTs in RPGs. People often talk about Daggerfall having a cozy atmosphere, and it's the soundtrack that really sells this.





 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
3,448
My criticism of Morrowind is my own from my own personal opinion and the way I play the game. I feel that all the random loot in all of those containers has a negative effect on me as a player as it creates a compulsion to explore, like a gambling addiction.
Well, it sounds like a "you" problem, doesn't it? Because I didn't mind missing some random loot and it wasn't really why I loved to wander around in Morrowind. Hell, in majority of cases I didn't even have any expectations as to what I would find when entering any particular place. It was more about the unraveling a mystery, the sense of discovery, than anything else. The loot was merely the [nice] consequence of me exploring the unknown world, not THE reason to explore.

To me it sounds like you should stop playing the game that is worsening your gambling addiction and wastes your time.
 

Vic

Educated
Joined
Oct 24, 2018
Messages
654
These systems are clearly in place to hook players in with random loot, stop being delusional fanboys. What other reason is there for the excessive amount of loot in the game?
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
3,448
These systems are clearly in place to hook players in with random loot, stop being delusional fanboys. What other reason is there for the excessive amount of loot in the game?
I can't tell if you're trolling or working for a dumbfuck tag at this point. The reason for having loot in an RPG (any RPG) is for... gear progression. Randomized loot introduces some some variety to what you can get (in theory), but that's about it. The "excessive amount of loot" may be the consequence of the game being vast (and the fact that you can loot anyone's body).

Overall you're confusing Morrowind with Diablo. And having randomized loot in Diablo was a good thing, not a bad thing, because everything hinged on repetition of the same dungeons and bosses there. In Morrowind you can skip whatever you want as you will have a good time in whatever gear you stumble across. You're the one being delusional if you fail to see this.
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
8,906
Location
Eastern block
Both games had awesome soundtracks.
No idea about Daggerfall but Morrowind ost is actually shit and vastly, vastly overrated, apparantely based on pure nostalgia and the lack of people's (let alone nerd teens) taste, as usual. Ta da da, ta da da, my ass. In general it's extremely bland and le epic at the same time which is annoying when mostly all you do is walking from place to place or whacking some mudcrab. Even more importantly, it barely encapsulates the very praised setting: the red mountain, the sandstorms, the native dark elves and even the prophecy themes don't sound right to me at all.
Yeah, tracks like this one start out great, with a tranquil but somewhat lonely quality to them, but then they insist on having to swell into something more grand and exciting, ruining the whole feeling. Seems like the composer didn't understand what the game would play like and was making music around the story descriptions and a simple idea of a fantasy scenario. The game needed a lot more of, and more variety in the ambient tracks.


Also agree that the game should have gone for a more exotic soundtrack in keeping with the setting, something similar to the Lustmord soundtrack for Planescape, something that captures both the tribal and science-fiction qualities of Vvardenfell, something a little more dirty. Would have a been a great juxtaposition to have the serene tracks playing while wandering around the small coastal villages, then something like this plays when you enter a dungeon of the Sixth House:


That Eliminating Angel track is very much like Daggerfall

Also reminds me of Heretic for some reason
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Top Bottom